have just been approached about using my boy at stud. He is proven, having sired our first litter last summer.
the person who approached me has litter sister to my Beatrice, who is 21 months old. This bitch had day 1 of her season on Monday.
The owner states he wants to line breed, which is why he approached me, as my boy (3 1/2 years) is litter brother to the dam of these 2 bitches (does this make sense?? I call him uncle..)
anyway, I spoke with him on the phone yesterday, and I do have my concerns.
He has never had a litter before, either this breed or any other. I know that isn't necessarily bad, but it was my first litter last summer so I am hardly experienced to be able to support him, though I would do my best.
He knows nothing of Factor VII deficiency, which is present in the breed, my boy is tested and is a carrier, his bitch is not tested. I have told him to look it up, he will need to know all about it.
He has no puppy buyers lined up, though he states that he will be able to sell them  
I have gone through costs with him, my bitch had to have a c-section and spay and her fees alone came to well over £1000, plus he will need to be able to feed pups until 10 weeks old, and house them.....
I have suggested he come to visit us this coming weekend, we will show him where we whelped and how we set it up, plus we will go through the paperwork I have from last year,as well as pics etc on the computer. Plus he can meet our boy.

Also, he mentioned that he had worked his bitch, again not necessarily a bad point, but leads me on to my next point..

If I don't agree to assist him, I have no doubt he will go elsewhere as his bitch is in season now. I am also aware that any pups are also my responsibility which doesn't faze me too much, we have the facilities to care for them if need be, and I would want to help all I could.

In some ways, I'm almost hoping that he will come visit, and that I can persuade him to wait til her next season...am in a quandary - I have no doubt this bitch will be lovely (I have her brother and sister) but I don't feel experienced enough to guide him - he did state that he had a neighbour that bred bull terriers and a friend who breeds dachs - so I guess he can get general advice
am also not very knowledgable about line breeding, and whether this is too close. I am aware that it will magnify any bad points, which so far am not aware of in my boy etc

I guess I would rather he had someone like me helping him, than someone who was more mercenary, if that makes any sense at all.....

I'm confused (can you tell?) any advice???????????   

Well this is coming from someone who hasn't up until now owned a stud dog.(My boy is only 8 months old) I wouldnt let him use my dog this season I would want him to be alot more prepered and had all the health tests needed, done before I would consider it. I would also want to talk to someone more experienced in the breed who I could trust to honestly evaluate the bitch and the pedigrees to see if there is anything in the background that a close mating could bring forward. I can understand you not wanting him to breed from his bitch without the right kind of help but you can only do so much to steer people towards the best breeding practices.  So my advice would be don't do it unless he waits and shows some commitment to the future of the breed.

that is what I shall try to persuade him to do - wait til her next season, by which time I can help him sort out the Factor VII issue, which involves sending samples off to America - he won't have time to do it now

and I can do some research into the line breeding aspect

I just don't want to be perceived to be ignorant of these issues - it's my name and my boy's name out there, not just this bloke.... 

I don't know too much about owning stud dgs, but I do understand a little about genetics and line-breeding. Uncle/neice can be a very good pairing, as it will cement th good points that the line carries BUT it will also bring out the undesirable 'nasties' as well. If your boy is a carrier for Factor VII (not sure what that is?) I would want to be very sure that the bitch isn't also a carrier - 2 carriers will give a very strong likelihood of puppies being affected.

Factor VII is a minor blood clotting issue, not deemed to be life threatening or affecting general well-being of dog - just important to be aware of in case dog ever subject to trauma requiring major surgery etc

owners are advised to let vets know of status so extra plasma can be on hand if dog is affected etc

as far as I am aware there is no intention to totally breed it out (as that could leave the breed vulnerable to other issues) but it is responsible to be aware of the status of breeding dogs - I would consider breeding carrier to carrier if the advantages to the pairing far outweighed the mathematical stats, in an ideal world clear x clear is preferable but not always possible.....

it's a confusing issue, if it was a major debilitating disease then I wouldn't have ever used him at stud

and it goes without saying that if any of my hounds tested affected I wouldn't use them at all - far too many risks for any bitch to whelp who is affected etc etc

this man knows nothing of this issue, so I hope I can let him see that it is important, without overstressing the issue.......

> I can help him sort out the Factor VII issue

Good for you :)  I don't know what that ailment is either but if it's a breed health issue then it has to be tested for and the results lead to an informed opinion of whether this is a suitable pairing (among other reasons).

From a line breeding POV it's certainly a classic and commonly used match but any mating is only as good as the depth of knowledge behind it. 

> it's my name and my boy's name out there, not just this bloke....

Again, good for you!  I think you're being very responsible here :)

Best wishes, Teri

Am certainly trying to be responsible!

Must admit when he first contacted me I was very excited about the prospect, as well as flattered for being consulted, but on thinking on it, I think I would open myself up to a lot of criticism if I went ahead without ensuring health checks done....I know a lot of breeding has been done before this was considered an issue with no apparent ill effects, but I am new to all this myself, and I need the support of established club members, so fingers crossed I can make this bloke realise I am not being rude, or condiscending (sp?) it really is in the best interests of his bitch to get her tested, and if this is her first season I would rather wait til her second anyway.

(if she's anything like her sister, who had her first season at Christmas, she had absolutely NO interest in the boys and was very clear in her disapproval ;) )

Right, I appear to have talked some sense into myself.....must not let hubby try and change my maind, nor this bloke :) 

I agree with the others (and yourself, by the sounds of it ;-) ) Try to pursuade him to get the health test done, but let him know that you would be willing to discuss breeding her to your dog in the future. If you start out by not letting your dog mate untested bitches you are on the right track. Health tests are there for a reason and shouldn't be ignored.

I think this man simply wants a litter, full stop, he may have gone elsewhere and been refused, he may have heard of you and you are the closest. if he wanted to breed responsibly and with knowledge he would have done his homework, health tests, and booked a possible stud dog before she came in season. I bet if you had said 'yes' he'd be coming for a mating this weekend no questions asked except price and would he have to pay if she missed. Why does he want a litter? why does he want a litter off his bitch before she is 2 yrs old? Does your breed club have rules regarding using a stud and age of bitch? You could eaisily get yourself a bad name in your breed club for letting him use your dog.
I find it odd that he has no homes by word of mouth and working ability of his bitch in the group he works his bitch with. They usually know of people looking for a new dog.

Its lucky you are so careful, and willing to share your own knowledge with him, even if that is limited it shows you care. maybe he has no idea of what breeding entails, and will be guided by you and not breed this time. or, he may scrabble to find any dog somewhere else. if he does, well thats not your problem, you have done all you can by advice. At least you will not be allowing him to add to the dog population by giving in to him. The stud dog is yours, accept no presure to use him whatever this man may say. After a successful mating (where pups are forthcoming) he may want no more to do with you, you have no control about where the pups will go, although he may well find it useful to shirk responsibility should one return if you are offering to take that on board. He wins both ways.

Factor VII is a minor blood clotting issue, not deemed to be life threatening or affecting general well-being of dog - just important to be aware of in case dog ever subject to trauma requiring major surgery etc

Slightly off topic here -how interesting. I never knew this existed. I have Factor V MYSELF, never knew there was something similar in dogs and that there are different numbers to it etc. (Certainly Factor V can be extremely life threatening though -in fact it nearly killed me more than once, and this one in humans is dominant so you either have it or not and only need one parent affected.)

Back onto the subject -personally I would not breed from any bitch as young as 21 months -not even in toybreeds. I can't see any reason to not wait until at east the second birthday.

I am guessing that although the condition doesn't seem to be life threatening it must be a breed concern that there testing being carried out.   I am assuming it is a recessive that stock is being classed as carriers rather than dominant carriers.

You know your dog is a carrier , I think ethically you should  ONLY allow tested bitches declared as clear to be used.

2 carriers mated together will produce 25% affected, and 50% carriers.

1 carrier to a clear will at least not produce any affected but will produce 50% carriers but testing can be done then on this litter.

Fantastic they have the test, the fact it is there it SHOULD be used.   I wished we could get more tests for others illnesses.

Reiterating my opinioni that ethically you should only accepted tested clear bitches. Never any untested.

he seemed like a nice bloke, and genuinely unaware of the health issues, I really am hoping I can talk him round to waiting til next season (I am not even thinking about mating my bitch til she is past 2 yrs and health tested, if suitable ;) ) as that will also give him time to prepare and organise homes, I got the impression that he was confidant to find homes, even though he has no-one waiting, as such. It is possible that this will be from his links within his working contacts, but as you say, I would have no control over that.

I would also be concerned about endorsing the litter, but I can't force him to do that either.

I would rather he stayed with me on this, than go elsewhere, but again I can only hope for the best.

He mentioned he had been to a dog show and found he enjoyed it, unexpectedly it appears, and his girl came first in a class, so again I'm hoping I can persuade him to take an interest in that side too and campaign his girl a bit before mating her, and that will have the added bonus of people knowing of her which helps when homing pups....

or maybe I'm just projecting how I would be onto what I want him to be.....I don't know, but I am trying to do the right thing

> he seemed like a nice bloke, and genuinely unaware of the health issues

nice is a good thing but i think i'd rather mate my dog to the dog of a psycho mad person as long as they were a brilliant dog owner who knows what they are doing. if he's completely unaware of the health concerns then it doesn;t sound like much research has been done, if she's already in season and he's only just contacted you about a stud then it doesn't sound planned, if he's not got any homes lined up how does he know he'll sell them? also if its her first season i'd be dubious about it. try and convince him to wait for a bit.

In Response to DEARLADY

With any negative trait a carrier should only ever be mated to clear, unless there is an overwhelming reason to mate carrier to Carrier in a non life threatening instance like this, but that is very unlikely unless you have the last breeding pair in a breed for example.

The problem does not need to be bred out urgently at the cost of narrowing the gene pool, but should be bred out by judicious use of carriers to clear, and once the number of carriers is sufficiently reduced, as people given the choice will keep back the clear pups in the litter if all else is equal.

It doesn't sound as if the potential breeder is up to speed enough to test the pups in the litter, if he hasn't tested the bitch, so I would not even consider letting my dog be used until the status of the bitch is known.

If they are both carriers then I would want a written undertaking from him that he will have the pups tested before homing and make the new owners aware of the status of the pups, especially any affected.  to be honest though if his bitch is a Carrier, then I would tell him to use another clear dog.

I would seek advise from your own breeder in the matter too.

Also what is his hurry, the bitch is under two eyrs of age, so he coudl easily wait anotehr season or two if she si 6 monthly..

I would also be concerned about endorsing the litter, but I can't force him to do that either.

You could tell him thats part of your service contract.

I would rather he stayed with me on this, than go elsewhere, but again I can only hope for the best.
Why? If he is simply BY breeding you are taking an active part in this too. Talk him round to waiting, but are you really going to allow him to use your dog on an underage bitch that had no essential health testing?

He mentioned he had been to a dog show and found he enjoyed it, unexpectedly it appears, and his girl came first in a class...........what sort of show? When? What proof is there to anything he has said re working or showing? I had a dog that came first in a class........'Dog the judge would most like to take home' Don't be fooled into 'stories'.

Maybe his confidence at selling comes from watching the puppy sales sites. if this is a breed that 'moves fast' that could be why he is so confident.

If you want to do 'the right thing' give him advice and walk away. Don't be the 'other half' of a BYB. Out of interest, how did he come to get your details?

In response to Calmstorm - I think you misread, or I wasn't clear - when I said I would rather he stayed with me, I meant in the aspect of waiting til tests done etc...not that I was going to use my boy now
-  sorry if it was confusing ;)

Thanks for replies, backs up my gut instinct

DEARLADY...:) sorry, I did read it the wrong way ooops....thought it strange you were so worried, yet considering it...takes big foot out of mouth  ;) :) :)

How did he get your details? I would also treat what he says about shows/working with a degree of caution, some people say all the 'right' things when they have been round the block of experienced stud dog owners :)

I think I would try to keep him on side, but point out shes not fully mature yet, and hasnt had the health testing done, and 1st in a class means very little (as nice as it is of course).

If hes willing to do the health testing, and get his bitch out and about a bit more to see how she fairs under other judges (ooh.. ask for the details of the show and judge she placed under so you can look out for any critique)..then you'd be willing to consider using your boy.

I wonder if he has had a little success and taken to showing more than he thought, his bitch is in season and someone has said 'why arent you breeding her....' so hes leapt right in, without perhaps thinking everything through.

He may well not want to do that, but if he doesnt... you dont want your name involved in any of it!

well I am now waiting for him to get back to me, after our initial conversation I suggested he visit without his bitch so we could have a proper talk etc, so if he does want to follow up, I shall expain my decision to him.

Hubby understands my reasoning, I'm just not ready to go down the stud route with someone this inexperienced, I know we all have to start somewhere, but I would be a total worry-wort about the pups and if he was coping..**if he had had all relevant tests done**

I just can't risk the health of his young bitch going through whelping etc and she turned out to be affected

plus I keep looking at my girl, who is litter sister, and I wouldn't consider mating her cos I believe she is too young, so why should I consider his girl??

So if he gets back to me, I shall sit him down and explain all this, and give him the info he needs about Factor VII, and hope that if he's doing this for the right reasons, he will happily wait another season which will give him time to test her, which I will go through with him, as I need to get 2 of mine tested as well....

and if he gets funny with me, then I'll be happier knowing it wasn't my boy and my name involved ;)