Hello,

I am new to this forum so firstly I'd like to say a big Hi to everyone and thank you in advance for taking the time to read my post.  I have been a keen dog owner (mainly Staffords) for around 15 years now, but recently I have wanted to add a canine pal to our family, and I am really interested in either a Cocker, or a Cavalier King Charles.

I've been looking for a few weeks now, and I've managed to view 3 litters of cockers (mainly local breeders, who's info I got from the Kennel Club's puppy register).  They have all been beautiful puppies - of course! but I am very aware that I shouldn't rush in, just in case I make a mistake and then live to regret it.  I have researched the breed in depth and everything seems absolutely fine - but I really wanted to see a litter of Cavaliers - which I did today, and was disgusted with what I saw.

I have found it almost impossible to locate a litter of Cavaliers in my area, but my dad called me this morning to say that he had found a litter for sale about 20 miles away from me, and had provisionally arranged for me to visit if I wanted to.  Obviously I jumped at the chance, and headed off immediately.  (My dad came too).  I didn't ask him where he had seen the ad until after we came away from the 'LICENCED BREEDER' - both reeling from what we had seen.  When we got there, it was basically a patch of land behind some huge gates, hidden from the world and no evidence of what went on inside.  The breeder unlocked the gates for us to drive in, and we were greeted by 4 very aggressive GSD's who were chained to a large caravan.  We were ushered in to the breeders home which was absolutely, disgustingly filthy, and reeked of dog urine/feaces.  We were told to sit on the couch while she bellowed at 3 yellow labs who were behind a gate in her kitchen.  She opened the door of a seperate room and as I glanced over to see where she was going, I nearly gasped in shock.

The room was floor to ceiling with dog crates, and they were filled with so many different types of dogs with litters of puppies.  I saw a cocker bitch and about 6 puppies, a poodle and her pups, 2 cavaliers with thier pups, a westie with her pups, 3 or 4 labradors with pups - I would hazard a guess that there were 10 or 11 crates that I couldn't see clearly. 

She came back out, slamming the door behind her, holding 4 Blenheim Cavalier bitch puppies who were absolutely caked in dirt and grime.  All of the puppies were shaking and terrified (I might add that they were only 3 weeks old, so obviously at this point we were only viewing with the option of leaving a deposit if we wanted to).  By this point I was close to tears, I fell in love with the puppies but I think it was mainly because I wanted to get them out of there and in to a loving, clean home - they were in such a terrible state.  The breeder then proceeded to put the puppies next to us on the sofa, switch her TV on and sat down to watch it - totally ignoring us and the puppies who were getting increasingly upset and missing mum! 

It was my dad who asked to see the puppies mum, and we were 'tutted at' as she left her TV programme to fetch her.  She was nervous and skinny, and just as filthy as her puppies.  She was then put straight back in her crate, where I assume she lives all day.  I'm sure the puppies aren't socialised at all.

I commented that I liked a particular puppy, and the breeder said that with a deposit of £50 she would reserve her until she could leave mum at 6 weeks.  (surely that should be 8 weeks?)  I told her that we would need to think about it and get back to her.  She then said that she would mark the puppy with 'Nail Varnish' so she knew which puppy was mine. (they were all very similar) I thought she meant she would paint one of her claws - but how wrong could I be - she smeared a HUGE amount of nail varnish on the puppy's EAR!  The smell of the cheap nail varnish was horrendous where I was sitting, so goodness knows how bad it was for poor puppy.  She immediately started foaming at the mouth and crying like crazy.  At this point I had to leave the room.  As a dog lover it was a nightmare situation to be in.  The breeder told us not to worry, it was 'quite normal' to mark a puppy in this way, and the nail varnish wouldn't affect her at all???!!!!!

My dad and I left in great haste, not really speaking on the way home.  When we started chatting again, we both considered just buying her to get her away from that hell hole.  My only worry is that if people like me continue buying from people like her, she will have an excuse to carry on.  I am devestated at what I saw today and I need you all to tell me if I am over-reacting, or if I am verrified in feeling this awful.  Her little face will haunt me forever, but I cannot buy her - it's just not right.  I cannot believe that this woman is registered with the Kennel Club - I honestly thought that buying a KC registered puppy was some kind of guarantee of a quality puppy.  The fact that she is also Licenced with the local council is just ridiculous.

She knew how to talk the talk, and offered a full vet check, KC pedigree, worm & flea treatment, puppy pack and 6 weeks insurance - but does this always ensure that the breeding was a good match and that the puppy has had a good start in life - I just don't know what to think or feel right now.  Is this a common situation??  I have to say that I am shocked and I feel totally naive.  Is any of this normal??

When I asked my Dad where he had found the advert for this breeder, he said it was one of the puppy-ad sites online, who apparently allow you to offer litters for sale with no level of monitoring or discretion.   My husband says I should report her to the RSPCA or inform the KC - I honestly don't know what to do.  Can you offer any advice?

Many thanks.

Oh dear. :( Are you sure it WAS the KC she registers with? A lot of people like this use an alternative registry which they make sound like it is KC registration when it is not. I'd report this person first to the council, then the RSPCA.

Yes it definitely sounds like a puppy farmer. NONE of it is the behavior of a responsible breeder.

As it was a Cavalier pup, you could easily catch her out on the health. Ask. No Cavaliers should be bred from before the age of 2 ½, and any good breeder should be able to show you proof of both parents having been heart checked every year with clear results, AND that all four grandparents of the pups are at least 5 years old and still heart clear. The parents should also have been eye tested, have their patellas (kneecaps) checked by a vet, all certified in writing, and ideally also have been MRI scanned for Syringomyelia -I doubt this person even know what that is.

The very sad fact is that Cavaliers from breeders like these often die before the age of 5 (I have recently heard of Cavaliers dying aged just one and 3 from it) due to having severe Mitral Valve Disease. I can certainly see your dilemma -you want to rescue the poor pup but you do understand that to buy will only encourage them to breed more. :( You also need to bear in mind here that if you did buy this pup, you can be almost guaranteed to end up with a pup that will get sick sooner rather than later in life and may well need a lot of expensive vet care and daily medication. A wellbred Cavalier has a clear heart for 5-7 years or hopefully more (although the great majority will have a murmur by aged ten -it's very rare to have one that stays clear), a badly bred Cavalier don't often see their 7th birthday. :(

Sad as it is, your best bet is to try to report this woman without buying a pup.

Reoprt to RSPCA urgently KC can`t do anything.Those kind of people make me mad and I feel for those poor puppies and the other animals on site.

Thank you very much for your prompt advice.  I will make necessary phone call in the morning.  Many many thanks & best wishes.

(she assured me that it WAS Kennel Club registration - however, I never saw any evidence supporting this).

Hi, how awful! I was almost in tears just reading this.
I would definitely report her to the local council and the RSPCA, I would also ring the KC, don't know if it will do any good, but no harm trying.:-(

Speak to the local council - if she has that many breeding bitches she ought to be licenced, and they should be inspecting her premises. It might also be worth having a word with the tax office. With that number of litters she must be making a tidy sum each year, which should be declared for tax purposes.

I don't have much time for the RSPCA. I know of someone who was reported by a potential puppy buyer, nowhere near as bad as the conditions you describe, but still pretty unacceptable. The dogs had food and water, beds, and were exercised, so they said all was OK. She now advertises as 'RSPCA inspected'!!! Still this does sound as though you might be able to get them to take action.

Poor you and what a thing to have to see, sounds awful. Definately sounds like a puppy farmer. Please DO NOT buy this pup as this just encourages the pup farmers to continue to churn out these helpless souls. Ring the RSPCA, The local Council to the area (Dog Warden and enviromental health) and the free phone no questions about you  Revenue & Customs

O.M.G!!! i own two cavs i was nearly in tears reading your post :( i would defi report her!! i really understand how you feel id want to save the wee girl too but then again maybe that would just add to the problem of PUPPY FARMS!.. makes me so sad :( and MAD!!!:(   would like to add if you want a really loving girl in your life defi get a cav!! tho i would say that ;) ;)

Report her definately - first to the local council and the Inland revenue.  The RSPCA may respond, but they have limited powers even if something is wrong, so they are more likely to simply 'advise' her rather than take action.

You've all been so helpful and kind, taking time out to answer my query.  Thank you so much.

It's lovely to find a whole big gang of people who are as doggie minded as me! 

I could never go through with buying the puppy.  As tempting as it may be, I have lost dogs in the past to ill health and I cannot face putting myself and my family through that (I know it will happen eventually, there's no getting away from it when you own a pet, but I want any potential dog of mine to be as healthy as possible to start with).

I think that puppy and all her siblings will stay in my mind forever though.  It's such a shame because like you say, if I did go ahead and bring her home, I would only be promoting that awful woman and giving her the excuse to breed again.  There's no way I could do that.

Oh well....... back to my search.

Can anyone give me a true 'no holds barred' account of what show type cockers are like as a family companion??  Thanks (again!)

Sorry you had such a dreadful experience. :(  Well done for walking away though, you did the right thing. 

I have 3 show type cockers and wouldn't be without them, we had springers before and they were great,  but these little ones are such fun.  Very affectionate, enjoy their walks, but when I was ill recently they were quite happy to play in the garden and cuddle with me on the sofa.  Never had any problems at night and  clean by 5 and 6 months.  Grooming is something you have to be prepared for, they need brushing every day to keep matts at bay and you need to be trimming them regularly if you are doing it yourelf or budget for a trip to the groomers every 8 weeks.  Make sure you get a pup that has been Optigen tested for PRA and FN tested (this one is a life threatening kidney disease).  Well done for doing your research, Cavs are lovely but it is cockers all the way for me.  :)  You could try your local Cocker Spaniel Club, they would be able to let you know of any litters from reputable breeders. :)

Hi AnnieM,

Thanks for your answer! 

I must admit, I adore the look of the show type cockers.  One particular puppy I've been to see keeps popping back in to my mind.  She is a beautiful blue roan & tan - but the tan is very light, almost sable colour, she is adorable.  I have first refusal on her at the moment, and she can come home with me on 10th May if I decide to go ahead.  She has had all the health tests you mentioned, and I actually got the breeders info from The Cocker Spaniel Club (she is also registered on this site's list of breeders and the KC Puppy Register, so hopefully I can assume she is a good guy rather than a villain!)

The grooming thing does worry me slightly, but I guess it's just a case of getting used to it.  My friend has a Cavalier (hence my love of spaniels in general!) and she gets him clipped every few months - and when I say clipped, what I really mean is SHAVED to within an inch of baldness LOL!  He does look ever-so sweet, and just like a teddy bear, but personally if it were me I'd want a bit of coat left!!

Having owned Staffords for so long, it is going to be a real challenge looking after such a different type of dog - but I am up to the task and as usual it will be a case of 'only the best' for my new doggie! 

Not that dogs are my whole life or anything.............. LOL!!!!! x x x x

OMG...I have had to log in at work to say Please do something now...anything.
RSPCA - urgently
Dog Warden + police - only police can get access to a home
Kennel Club - to de register her if she is telling the truth

How can you be wrong. One dog in a crate all day with puppies is bad enough but 10 or more !!!

let us know what happened.....

Right, if she is a licensed breeder then definately report her to the local council. When I had problems with someone I reported them and the only people to take any notice and to act upon it was the council. The KC told me they wouldn't do anything about it and the RSPCA wouldn't either. I did also report them to the Inland Revenue as I doubted very much that they would be up front about how much they were breeding (they were having litters off bitches 5, 6 and 7 months after the bitches previous litters) Have a look at the Breeding and Sale of Dogs (Welfare) Act 1999? and see what are the requirements for a licensed breeder, that may help you when you make the call to the council.
I wish you very good luck, it is heart breaking when you are a dog lover and you see people treating them this way.

The most important and effective place to report her is the local council - if she is licensed they can take her license away.  The others are secondary, but please do report her.

Hi reading this post I have tears so terrible.

PLEASE LET US KNOW YOU HAVE REPORTED THIS PUPPY FARM PLEASE.

People like this should be stopped, and its dog lovers like ourselves that need to help stop this cruel going ons.

Yep, agree with everyone else here, please give us an update on what happened with this?
I can only echo other comments, that it took a lot more 'oomph' to walk away!
Scumbags like this need to be dealt with!

Have a look at this link, this tells you what you need to know about the housing and cleanliness of the dogs.
http://www.barking-dagenham.gov.uk/6-living/hcs/licensing/pdf/dog-breeding-non-domestic.pdf

Keep Phoning untill you get so one to respond. Can you also email the web site that advertised the pups? Tell them also.
If everybody worked together, we could give these puppy famers a run for there money.
Name and Shame!!!

I was horrified to read this post as i have just had my first litter. Unfortunately this happens alot and all you can do is report them. I only registered mine on the KC site and i have had many calls with the first questions being what is the price. This has put me straight off them as buyers. Others have been looking for ages and do ask for heart and eye certs (which mine have). You will never stamp out puppy farming as there is always someone that is willing to buy them but you have to do all that you can to save more little mites being brought into the world. Its so sad and like you i would have wanted to save them all. Please report them.

Just wanted to let you all know that I have reported the breeder to several people.  I have spoken in depth with her local council who say this is the 5th complaint they've had about her in 9 days - hopefully now they are going to look in to exactly what she's doing.  I gave them a very accurate description of all that I saw, and I just hope it will be enough.

I also spoke to the Kennel Club who were very sympathetic, but not all that helpful - I guess there's nothing they can do, but it seems terrible that she can advertise herself as KC Registered, but they as an organisation can't monitor her level of breeding standards or ethics at all. 

Lastly I contacted the RSPCA on the advice of the Kennel Club.  They seemed quite keen to investigate the conditions the puppies are kept in, however, when I told them about the Nail Varnish being painted on to the puppy's tiny ear. they said this is quite normal practise for breeders to be able to tell each puppy apart!!  I spoke to my vet today who also told me the same!  According to my vet, it's not an 'ideal' way of marking them, but it happens a lot!

??????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Am I the only person in the whole of the UK who thinks this treatment of a young puppy is DISGUSTING???  You wouldn't paint your baby's skin with nail polish at 3 weeks old would you?  In fact, my daughter is 7 and I still don't let her wear nail varnish now (apart from the kiddie friendly one!)

Does anyone else feel this way??

well done for resisting buying the pup, it must have been very hard but its the right thing. your right, if you bought her she'd just do it again.

definately the inland revinue, you can bet if she's dodging tax they will come down like a ton of bricks.

i certainly wouldn't do that. i must admit i did paint an adult dogs nails once though... seemed to like it!

our pups had little collars made out of hospital wrist bands, had to keep a close eye on them though in case they caught them while playing, when their big enough to run about you can tell which is which though.

I know....... I can't say I wasn't tempted, and I did consider just throwing caution to the wind - but, it would have broken my heart if she'd have ended up really poorly and - the worse happened - she died really young.  I know it's for the best, I just hope she'll be ok wherever she ends up.

Now come on guys, you have to help me decide, Cocker or Cav!!!!  They're both SO gorgeous! x x x

>the Nail Varnish being painted on to the puppy's tiny ear. they said this is quite normal practise for breeders to be able to tell each puppy apart!!  I spoke to my vet today who also told me the same! 

Yes, this is perfectly normal. Some people use a dab of Tippex on each puppy - one with a mark on the front right leg, one on the front left leg, one back right leg etc etc. If you have a litter of 10 almost identical puppies (black labradors, say) you need a way to distinguish between each one, that can't hurt them or their mother, and can't be licked off. Nail polish does a good job.

Well.... you learn something new everyday!!  :-)

neithers my cup of tea, i like em a bit bigger :)

both ment to be lovely family dogs though and both are very cute. there are loads of cav and cocker folk so i'm sure they'll be along soon

> when I told them about the Nail Varnish being painted on to the puppy's tiny ear. they said this is quite normal practise for breeders to be able to tell each puppy apart!!

That's how I marked some of my pups that were too similarly sized and coloured - except on their bottoms, not their ears.  Pups are born with fur so not going on to naked skin and it does neither them nor the mum any harm at all :)  I'd rather mark my pups that way than use ties around their necks which some breeders prefer - personally I think nail varnish is safer.  Two of the girls had to continue to be marked with one spot and two spots until they were about 7 weeks LOL.

regards, Teri

The KC can do something if she's an accredited breeder, but if she isn't then they can't! 

nail varnish on the HAIR (not the skin) is perfectly normal practise....just a blob or 2 or 3 in case of similar pups.

CAV!!! they are the most loving! stunning! dogs in the world (to me anyway;) but like iv said i have two girls...you will know when you find the right one which ever you decide on good luck with the puppy hunt!..:) :)

> I also spoke to the Kennel Club who were very sympathetic, but not all that helpful - I guess there's nothing they can do, but it seems terrible that she can advertise herself as KC Registered, but they as an organisation can't monitor her level of breeding standards or ethics at all.

Looking at your original post, and then this one, I wonder are you confusing the "Licensed Breeder" statement you first mentioned with being "KC registered" as above?  IT is a common misonception when people see Licensed breeder in ads that they assume it is with the KC, when in fact it is with the local authority.  People cannot be registered with the kennel club, only dogs - you can be a member of the KC, although I think it would be frowned on to use that in advertising, and you can be a member of the Accredited Breeder scheme.  Should her advertising state she is an ABS member, then the Accredited Breeder section at the KC can certainly act, and should do so very quickly with this sort of complaint.

Hopefully your complaint to the Council will produce results, as the conditons you mention certainly would not fit in with the terms of a license.

Hi again, I wouldn't use nail varnish either, as it is solvent based. I mark my pups with Crayola washable felt tips on their tums-diff colours and reapply when worn off. Horses for courses, I guess

Well said Gwen!

As a Cav owner and lover I can hardly bear to think of these poor puppies, I entirely understand your desire to rescue them. But you are right, that will only encourage this awful person to keep breeding. Please keep us updated if you hear anything back from the council and RSPCA, I do so hope they can do something. I have heard of dabbing nail polish on nails to identify, but not huge splodges on the ears!! :-(

PS a well bred and socialised Cav is the best dog possible!

Well you know which I would pick, cockers for me anyday.  Cavs are lovely too, but the last 4 training courses I have been on with my dogs, there have been incredibly badly behaved cavs on and a naughty cocker too.  I think with all dogs socialisation and training is the key, it is just that with the cavs the owners didn't seem to want to be firm with them, in fact one lady carried hers in and out of the hall and was terrified of letting it near any of the other dogs, no wonder it sat under her chair shaking the whole time, poor thing.  I think both breeds are lovely and can offer different things, I suppose it depends what you want from a dog.

you gotta get the cocker-no doubt wotsoever-Ive always had labs, still got three, but we have a sprocker(cocker cross springer) he is amazing, been told he has all cocker characteristics. he is a super little dog.

Hi again everyone- been a busy day so haven't been able to get online.  I probably got muddled with the way I was explaining things in the first post, I meant to say that the breeder herself was Licenced, but her puppies were all KC registered.  It seems such a shame that a good name like the KC can basically mean nothing when thier registered dogs are flaunted and used in such a terrible manner.

Anyway, moving on to brighter things, I do feel more positive that at least I may have helped some of her puppies - and even if she just cleans up her act a bit and takes better care of her current dogs, then it was well worth the phone calls. 

I am still trying to decide, Cocker or Cav!  It's a hard one, but taking everything in to account (my life style, the fact I have young children etc...) I am leaning more towards the idea of a cavalier.  I'm used to an old lazy staffie who loves nothing more than being a couch potato and occasionally cuddling up with my sister-in-laws dog to share a chew or two!  I just think it's such a huge decision and what ever doggie we finally choose will be hopefully with us for a lot of years!  Gotta get it right!!

I'll keep you all posted x x x