I have 12 week old male westie. I got him as a companion to my 3 year old westie male (who is very quiet and submissive - but will stand his own ground if pushed). They get on really well together. My question is that the 12 week old pup seems to get a very bad tempered and will growl quite agressively and show his teeth when i pick him up (not play growling). He is quite a dominant pup - I have been using the roll over technique to get him to submit but he seems to be getting worse and it takes me longer to get him to submit. I really want to nip this in the bud. Has any one got any other ideas to try and curb this behavoir?.

I'm no expert and I'm sure there will be someone along shortly that can be a bit more help.
I wouldn't be too worried at the moment, he is only a baby and just finding his place in his new family. I don't think it is that unusual for a puppy to not really liked being picked up after all it isn't a very natural thing and I suppose to a little one can be quite scary. Perhaps sit down and start just putting him onto your lap and give him a nice treat or two and a bit of a cuddle, he will soon learn that it is a good thing. I'm not sure if the roll over technique is the best particularly if it is actually making him worse. I would try more play and roll him over for a belly rub, examine him all over daily just as part of your routine, look in ears, have a good look at his feet and teeth, etc
I'm sure he will settle soon enough and your older boy will let him know if he gets too much for him too.

Debbie 

First of all, stop doing that 'alpha roll' thing. It doesn't work - the people who invented it (the Monks of Skete) have admitted it doesn't work and shouldn't be used. It's bullying; it actually worsens fear and therefore causes defensive aggression, as you're finding out.

Also remember that many dogs loathe being picked up (I imagine it feels rather like being on a rollercoaster, with that swooping sensation in your stomach) - they feel insecure so are often likely to give a warning that it's not welcome - especially if the picking up is followed by something unpleasant, like a scolding. For cuddles, get down onto the floor and let him climb onto your lap - that way he'll feel much more secure and will be happier.

Have to agree this dominating of the puppy is actually causing the problem.

thanks for all your comments - it is very confusing this alpha thing - there are lots of fors and againsts -  I am going to stop the alpha roll over thing as from today - it seemed to work at first but now he seems worse. But what action can be carried out when you pup growls and curls his lips at you and looks like he is ready to attack! (what is he trying to tell me?). If i leave him and give him 'time - out' will this be communicating to him that its o.k to do this??.

have you tried distraction by way of toys - maybe tuggy toys so you approaching him is a good thing becuase he gets a quick play...

I don't think curbing the behaviour of a 12 week old is the answer.   Practice distracting him.   I haven't personally ever seen a dog at 12 weeks old curl it's lip with aggression is it not play?

It must look terrible when he curls his lip and I do know how you must feel but he hasn't actually 'attacked' so, he is just telling you that he doesn't like being picked up in the only way he can. That is probably just because he is a little scared I would think. Ignoring him or giving him time out will soon show him what is and what isn't acceptable behaviour I would think. Try not to let him intimidate you though and if you want to do something with him just make it a calm and positive but, matter of fact thing ( if that makes sense )

Debbie

I agree in the dog pack theories and I stongly believe as me being the 'alpha' to my dogs, but I would never use any physical punishment/reprimand especially the alpha roll. As you have found yourself using the alpha roll can actually intesify the behaviour that you are using it to stop (or turn a pup into a quivering wreck :( ).

> Try not to let him intimidate you though and if you want to do something with him just make it a calm and positive but, matter of fact thing

This is the way 'alpha' behaves/how a human can attain alpha status over a dog (IMO). The way I see the 'alpha' position is a calm, fair, kind yet firm, consistent leader who has no need to get physical :)

thanks for all you input guys - just too answer blues comment on this, yes its definately NOT play growling. In the first place it seems to be grumpiness that makes him growl and lash out, and then when i do the roll (and i'm afraid to say that i am pinching his neck and pushing him into the ground to pull him down into the roll over) he then gets even more vocal and starts barring his teeth. Last night it suddenly dawned on me that his growl was intensifying at this point probably due to fear.... at which point i gently talked to him, stroked his head and he went to sleep...I must admit i am starting to feel terrible about this now. I hope i havn't done any lasting damage and that i can get back into more positive training techniques over the next few days and weeks. Like i mentioned at the beginning of my post my other 3 year old westie, harry, is so soft and gentle i have never had any growling issues with him.

Hi, don't worry about lasting damage in fact forget everything that has gone before and start afresh.  Don't blame yourself just look on your little pup as if you just got him and enjoy having him.  They soon forget and as long as you are consistently calm and fair with him my guess is you will find he is a little charmer just like your other.

I must admit i have seen this behaviour in a few young westie pups that we have had at our vets and they tend to be reacting this way out of fear.

i really agree.I wouldn't show anything but consistant firm reactions to your westies fear.Very important to be firm and calm in reaction to the anger,put him in a place away from everything for a few mins.Pick him up again,greeting with a very positive 'happy to see you' attitude,have a quick happy cuddle and say good boy/girl.If the quick cuddle is resisted with a growl then calmly put him back and repeat until their are no growls.After all there are times when a puppie has to be picked up.I agree though that a lot of dogs dont want to be picked up too much and i do most of my cuddling on the floor with them.

Sounds like your right in that your pup has a dominant personality. Sounds too as if you have been watching Cesar Milan from the dog whisperer! I wouldn't bother with physical confrontation with him as he is so dominant . When he is being a little git, trick him into following you then quietly leave him on his own to calm down. Fighting with him will only cause him to become more aggressive . Try and be passive/calm then get him focused on a squeaky toy or tit bit instead of pinning him to the ground. I never picked my puppy up when he was young, just talked to him and he would trot about after me .
Being so young they are very easily manipulated.

> Sounds like your right in that your pup has a dominant personality

I wouldn't call this a dominant personality I woudl call it a frightened confused pup who doesn't eyt trust it's new owner.  terriers are required to be spirited, so they will react differently to fear than some other dogs might.  He has three choices when faced with a fearful/stressufl situation, Fight, flight or Freeze, one piocked up flight has goen otu teh window, so there is fight (terriers first choice really) or freeze (more laid back submissive types).

Thanks to everyone in replying to my post - yesterday i tried out some of the more positive techniques suggested in this thread and glad to say that hardly had any growling! - i feel much more confident now about my approach and will no longer be using the roll over alpha method!

Great news! They are of course terriers so I find (though am not an expert) that they are inclined to push the limits, but yes, calm positive handling is generally better. You said something about grumpiness making him growl, perhaps he's getting a bit overtired and fractious too?

Thats great news maxine788 :)

My friend had a patterdale x staffie pup and saw her do the very same at 7 weeks when I saw her son who was 4 pick her up for a cuddle- it shocked me as she raised her lips and attacked whoever picked her up.  I told my friends boy to not do that as it was freaking her out but the kids thought it was funny!! she grew up to be very much a leader and a dominant personality but as well a fantastic family pet too. I have her daughter who is just the same- there is nothing bad about having this dominant trait only learning to control it especially in terriers.

Well done! I think it says a lot that the original people who used to suggest alpha rolling took it back and admitted it wasn't the best thing they'd ever thought of!

It may be if he's growling, he is anticipating either being picked up or rolled (or both?)

Try giving him tasty food treats when you stroke/groom/move him so that he will start to look forward to interaction with you in this type of situation :)

I agree terriers are bred to be feisty and  will react to fearful situations by - well, being feisty! Bless 'em!

Good luck :)