Following on from the furore at Crufts - how do Champdoggers feels about the petition calling for the breed to be split into two types (Germanic and English ) ?

My own opinion is that the clue to the breed has to be in the name ! - it is the GERMAN shepherd dog and should conform to the German blueprint .....by breeding dogs that conform to our English tastes  we have effectively created an English (German) Shepherd dog.....do we have the right to do this ? ....is'nt this what happened in America with Cocker Spaniels ( now an entirely different breed - the American Cocker).

The arguement that a precedent for a split has been set by the Belgian shepherd is spurious as this breed is judged and bred with the country of origins breed standard in mind and dogs bred in this country comply very closely with the continental breed standard......breeders in the UK have  NOT changed the breed to suit UK tastes !.

your thoughts ?

Yvonne

> .....by breeding dogs that conform to our English tastes& we have effectively created an English (German) Shepherd dog

Actually those that want the split are still breeding dogs to the 1950's standard the one that includes the "noted suspicious of strangers"to cover up the poor temperaments. If these people want to breed their"Alsatians"fine, but they should have no access to German Shepherd lines(the correct type). Perhaps then the fault fans(ie Whites, Longcoats etc breeders)could be added to the Alsatian gene pool as they usually resemble the Alsatian type. Of course as these dogs are bred solely for their looks & would not be able to carry out the Shepherding/working role(temperament & physical structure, coat etc) & as such should be added to the Utility group

The name should be what they fought so long to keep "Alsatian" & have no reference to GSD in their breed standard or name , JMHO of course

In my opinion there is no need for a split.  If people kept to an unexagerated dog, without going too far one way or another, then both types would be acceptable to all but the most fanatical breeders.

Debs

I know very little about GSD's so please don't shout at me but, as a dog lover and outsider I think maybe they should be split as they certainly couldn't be judged as one breed and there are very big fan clubs for each type. To me the type that is shown now looks very strange on the back end and I really can't see why it has to be quite so extreme. The legs just look completely wafty ( technical term :-)  )  The other English type though can be way too big and have way too much coat in my opinion to be a true herding dog.
Perhaps the answer would be as Debs said to keep to the unexagerated type but, I think it unlikely to happen.

Debbie

Like Jewel, I have no technical knowledge of the breed, but my first real introduction to dogs was with "Alsations" 47 years ago. As a young teenager, I used to help out at a local kennel whose owner bred "Alsations."  These were big, powerful, four-square dogs with beautiful heads trained in both herding and "man-work". Many of them lived to the age of 15+ without any kind of hip or joint problems.
When I see today's GSD's (I call them German Sloping Dogs - for obvious reasons) I cannot see any resemblance between the magnificent Alsations I remember from my youth and the slinking, banana-backed, narrow-headed, huge-eared monstrosities I see in the show ring.
I'm sorry if that offends anyone - it is just my uniformed opinion.

....but those "slinking, banana-backed, narrow-headed, huge-eared monstrosities " are the type that conforms and wins  in the country of origin - for example in America the 'English ' Springer Spaniel has been altered to meet the taste of the USA show world ..would we in the Uk be happy if they then said that their version was the correct one ? ... should we not respect and follow the blueprint laid down by the country of origin - the GSD at Crufts was considered an outstanding example by most continental experts - how insular are we to exclaim that he is not a 'proper' GSD because he does not fit OUR (changed) ideal of the German Shepherd Dog.

In effect WE have created an incorrect variation and now seek endorsement for it - yet we roundly condem others who breed incorrect versions of a breed ( look at the thread about harlequin Min Pins on this forum).

Yvonne

>those "slinking, banana-backed, narrow-headed, huge-eared monstrosities " are the type that conforms and wins  in the country of origin

But would they have won in the country of origin 60 years ago? Or has the country of origin also changed the breed from the original?

If you look at the images on this site, the German dogs of the 1920s and 1930s bear no resemblence to the modern German ones. I would imagine that if you asked Joe Bloggs what a GSD looked like he'd pick the 1950 picture of Rolf v. Osnabrücker-Land, even though the 1929 picture looks like a more practical dog.

JG that's a very interesting page and doesn't it just show how the breed has changed in it's country of origin!  I'm glad that people can see that it's not just the UK that has changed this breed over the years. 

This happens in many breeds.  Fashions change, types come and go, but to split a breed because of it, especially when the physical world of dog showing is changing so much due to the pet passport system where it's now not unusual for dogs to be shown all over the world, would be bad for the breed IMO.  Much better to breed dogs that actually conform to the standard than breed dogs which go over and above it.  IMO, as non breed specialist, both extremes are incorrect.

Debs

Hi, I've just registered in order to post specifically on this thread.

I have 2 GSD's, an eleven and a half year old ex operational Police Dog, that has been with us for nine years this coming July and a two and a half year old working lines female.

When I started searching for my female just over three years ago, I went to great lengths to try to find similar bloodlines to my male.  As in my opinion he is exactly what a GSD should be, stable, calm & trustworthy around my 3 children, but able to be protective should the need arise.
I was absolutely horrified at the majority of the GSD's that were out there, when I started looking.  Most of them were either nervous wrecks or Golden Retrievers in a GSD uniform.(nothing against Goldens, they are lovely, but if I'd have wanted a Golden I wouldn't have been looking for a GSD).

From what I could see most of the problems seemed to stem from breeders that were breeding specific "lines" for long coats & certain colourways, such as white,  blue & tan, silver sable (with pink polka dots no doubt),etc. what on earth for?  The Show lines that I looked at were mostly environmently unstable as well.

As far as I can see the ONLY remedy for sorting out the GSD in this country, is for the Kennel Club to introduce a similar system to Germany.  GSD's in Germany are only allowed to be registered & used for breeding if they have been titled in Schutzhund.

Now before everyone has heart failure - Schutzhund is not all about biting. There are 3 levels, the first covering obedience & temperament testing, the second tracking & the third sleeve training.
Introducing this system in the U.K., should hopefully start to rectify the GSD back to being the magnificent animal that it can be.

Moonmaiden, may I just take this opportunity to thank you for all of your great posts on the GSD.
I have learnt such a lot from you by reading them, since I first discovered Champdogs forum when I started looking for my female.

Totally agree Mick!

When I was young my Uncle always had a German Shepherd or Alsation, they were beautiful strong SOUND dogs, they werent exaggerated in any way, they stood four square and had a good strong back end. The temperaments were wonderful
This led me to own a GSD, he was a fantastic dog, he lived 13 years and never had an ill day in his life.

He had such strong conformation, and looked solid and like German Shepherds you would see in the films or in the old breed books, to me a proper GSD.
It upsets me to see today's GSD's in the ring , the backs are so sloped and the movement is appalling, they look deformed. Even to a non dog person
this is so obviously wrong.
I know one day I may like another GSD but would imagine it will be pretty difficult finding a traditional type

"But would they have won in the country of origin 60 years ago? Or has the country of origin also changed the breed from the original?"

almost all breeds have changed from their earliest days - in my own breed, the original Groenendael ( Duc de Groenendael), resembled a prick eared border collie  to the extent of having  an almost completely white chest and three white feet ! - so yes the country of origin have changed the breed but BSD breeders in the Uk have adopted the Continental breed standard as our blueprint and consequently BSD bred in the Uk can win equally well on the continent - the UK GSD world has not done this hence the present situation.

Yvonne

the UK GSD world has not done this hence the present situation

So what, exactly, are the differences in the standards between the German and the UK versions?  Have there been any changes made to either standard to accomodate today's dogs in either or both?  I find this very interesting.

Debs

It really amuses me because everyone & his/her partner are experts in GSDs(no other breed has this)They were all way better in the 1950's when they had the special clause included in the UK(nowhere else in the world BTW)about the noted suspicious of strangers, this was to allow the terrible nervous dogs that were the norm, whether they were show or working dogs. This wasn't removed until the 1970's & the awful temperaments are still seen today(this is why there are so many nervous/fear aggressive GSDs in the pet world) Most people have no idea about the true character of a GSD if they have never been in close contact with good dogs

There is a split in Germany, but not as diverse as here in the UK or in the USA(where there are three types of GSDs, the International type seen in Germany, the UK type & the US type whose conformation is causes hindquarter instability the norm). All the dogs have to pass the Korung before being bred from & most dogs have at least Sch H I. The Korung compares the dog to the breed standard template, tests the dog's courage(colloquially called the "Bite" & basic Obedience. All dogs have to also pass the BH test(one step below Sch H I)

The German dogs that are bred to work do just that, the cattle or sheep workers don't have to do Schutzhund, but do have to pass the herding test before being bred from.

All German GSDs are hip assessed & graded(all males are haemophilia tested)as well as being DNA profiled microchipped & tattooed. If you have a bitch with a white SV pedigree it would be frowned breeding your dog, the choice of stud dog to dogs with white pedigrees. The breeding dogs nearly always have pink pedigrees, showing that their parents have been assessed, have passed a working test & have been fully health tested.

Now if the UK KC was to bring this in, it would rule out many of the English bloodlines, because of the poor characters, incorrect conformation(especially length to height ratio)& many many years of breeding from non hip scored ancestors, add this to the usual poor physical condition(ie lacking musculature & stamina)

I have only ever lived with one GSD with pure English lines, she was a dreadful specimen-fear aggressive, nervous & only too predictable in that you knew if you turned your back on her she would bite !. All my dogs have been from German bloodlines & I have never had a problem with type or temperament

The UK KC breed standard is a slightly modified version of the Germany(not FCI)standard. It has no disqualifying points(non standard colours etc).

The breeders who really want this split(the ones who breed the type pictorially illustrated in this week's Our Dogs)are still breeding the type of dogs that were popular in the 1950's, described by a German as being, long, Low & English !

> As a young teenager, I used to help out at a local kennel whose owner bred "Alsations."&; These were big, powerful, four-square dogs with beautiful heads trained in both herding and "man-work". Many of them lived to the age of 15+ without any kind of hip or joint problems

GSDs have never been "square dogs", even the breed standard from the 1950's stated that the dogs should be longer than tall. I've had German dogs who have lived well into their teens & not had any hip/DM problems(DM BTW is not connected to HD, it's a neurological disorder). There have never been many GSD used in herding in the UK, because they do not work the sheep the way the collies do. GSDs are left with the sheep & keep the sheep behind a line to stop them over grazing pasture. This is not how sheep have been farmed in the UK & yes I go back 50 years this year in owning GSDs(17th July BTW). soundness sadly does not mean good hips.

The police dogs of 50  years ago were noted for their aggression & put the fear of doG into the criminals, because they would always bite. All my dogs have been from pure German bloodlines. German dogs do not have narrow heads BTW Zamp has a lovely strong head, it is the dogs that are bred to the old standard that have the weak heads, lacking in strength of muzzle & sex characteristics. i've just unearthed some photos from the 1950's & 1960's of GSDs. The only ones with good heads are the ones with German bloodlines, they are all however longer than tall, not a square GSD in sight.

The German dogs have huge ears ???????? They certainly do not, if you want to floppy over sized ears go the UK Club's shows, poor ear carriage is a big no no in Germany

BTW the old name is Alsatian as in a native of Alsace Lorraine(which of course is currently in France)

Interesting!  I was actually thinking about conformation though.  One of my dogs had a very Germanic type GSD go for them at a show last year.  The dog was lunging at everything.  I have seen English type GSDs do this too so no doubt there are bad temperaments in both types.  I used to show a beautifully tempered GSD bitch in the 80s who went on to become a Champion.  I'm sure there are many Germanic GSDs with fabulous temperaments too.

As I said, it was the conformation aspect that I was interested in.  Apart from the disqualifying points (which we don't have in any breed standard in the UK) what are the differences in the German standard and the UK one?  I'd look it up myself but can't read German :-D

Debs

There is none other than the German Standard is in much more detail.

How did I know there would be a nasty English International type quoted-my point is that these dogs are english bred & do not have to pass breed surveys etc as the German dogs do & so dogs that would be disregarded in Germany are bred from over here

So the FCI and UK KC breed standards are exactly the same conformation-wise?  That's very interesting.  It just goes to show how subjective interpreting a breed standard can be doesn't it!  There are obviously judges who interpret them in totally different ways.

Debs 

>It just goes to show how subjective interpreting a breed standard can be doesn't it!  There are obviously judges who interpret them in totally different ways.

It seems clear that, if both standards are the same, and if the original breed standard was the blueprint of the perfect dog at that time, then there's been a lot of changes and/or misinterpretations both in the UK and on the Continent. neither the UK nor the country of origin can be breeding to the original standard.

I absolutely agree JG.  As I said before, the problems lie when dogs are bred over and above what the standard calls for.  Exaggerations of the standards are not good in any breed IMO.  I've just spent a very interesting time looking at German Seiger winners and totally English bred dogs.  Both, IMO, contain caricatures of the GSD standard.  Both side are exaggerated and both sides need to be worked on.  On one side you have pictures of some seiger winners with banana toplines and extreme angulation behind (in no way do those toplines conform to what the standard asks for), and on the other side you have overly long dippy backed dogs with their stifles on the floor winning CCs in the UK - again, not conforming to the standard.

Why can't breeders just breed to the breed standard?  I can understand breed specialists getting a bit narked about every man and his dog having something to say about GSDs, what's wrong and what's right, etc, but if a person has half an inkling about dogs and conformation it doesn't take a genius to work out that the extremes of both sides do not conform to their breed standard.  Middle of the road is surely the way to go.

Debs

"Now if the UK KC was to bring this in, it would rule out many of the English bloodlines, because of the poor characters, incorrect conformation(especially length to height ratio)& many many years of breeding from non hip scored ancestors, add this to the usual poor physical condition(ie lacking musculature & stamina)"

Exactly right & I'm thinking this is what the GSD as a breed requires to get it back on track in this country.
From my point of view, as a pet owner, that can only be a good thing as far as I can see. 

I am incredibly lucky that my male, which was my first GSD, is of the correct temperament & character, as I had absolutely no clue when I got him. 
I had a real reality check when searching for my other one, such an unbelievable difference, it was  heartbreaking to see such pitiful examples of the breed.

Really great informative posts Moonmaiden, thank you!

I may be mistaken but I think the FCI standard calls for "high long withers ....long sloping croup without break in the overline" and when gaiting there should be " an uninterrupted gently flowing overline from the tips of the ears to the tail ".

Yvonne

I'm not getting into any arguments over this as I no longer have GSDs.  But both mine were "middle of the road" (MM will know what I mean by this!), so I reckon I had the best of both worlds!!  They both did obedience, had great temperaments with both people and dogs, one did WT, agility (for fun) and then went on to show.

Sarah.

Looking at the website someone referred to above, I would say that the type of dogs my old mentor bred (and to which I referred above) were most closely similar to the 1929 dog featured. The dogs from 1950 onwards seem to be already well on the path to becoming German Sloping Dogs.

Surely it would be down to personal taste - what I mean is if you prefer a particular type, follow that blood line and go for that breeding, if you don't, don't.

My Dobe has American lines so is a bit bigger than most, not intentional on my part, but if you make a concious effort you could select the route you wanted to go down.

Nothing wrong in doing that Bez :)  As long as the dog conforms to the breed standard and is free from exaggerations then it's fine.  Unfortunately, there's a lot of exaggeration in many breeds nowadays.  But both extremes of GSD are far removed from the standard.  Unfortunately fashion seems to be taking over rather than breeding to the standard and not over and above what it asks for.

To be honest, I don't see the two sides ever meeting in the middle (which would seem the most sensible course of action) as both sides are convinced they're right and will not hear of anything good being said about the other side.  Neither side can answer the question of why the breed has changed so dramatically on both sides over the years.

Debs

>To be honest, I don't see the two sides ever meeting in the middle (which would seem the most sensible course of action) as both sides are convinced they're right and will not hear of anything good being said about the other side.  Neither side can answer the question of why the breed has changed so dramatically on both sides over the years.

Unfortunately you could equally well be talking about show or working types of Springer or Cocker spaniels, and even labradors to slightly lesser extent.

I have to agree. :(  Although the people in those breeds tend to be less, shall we say, 'vocal' in their damnation of the 'other side' ;)

Debs

>I'm glad that people can see that it's not just the UK that has changed this breed over the years. 

It may well be called the German Shepherd Dog but the modern German type is no nearer the original type than the 'English' type, which rather dilutes the point of view that the fashion in the country of origin is automatically correct.

The German dogs that are bred to work do just that, the cattle or sheep workers don't have to do Schutzhund, but do have to pass the herding test before being bred from.

Please excuse my ignorance but aren't they 'shepherd' dogs rather than 'sheep' dogs? I always thought the purpose of a shepherd dog was to protect the sheep rather than to herd them like sheep dogs do? If that is the case then why would they have to pass a herding test? Not trying to be argumentative - just didn't think they were used for herding.

On the whole English/German split thing I can remember an argument a few years ago over the Australian Shepherd Dog (just when they got into import register here) because they were apparently in no way Australian but were originally bred in the US and therefore should have been "American" shepherd dogs.

> Please excuse my ignorance but aren't they 'shepherd' dogs rather than 'sheep' dogs? I always thought the purpose of a shepherd dog was to protect the sheep rather than to herd them like sheep dogs do? If that is the case then why would they have to pass a herding test? Not trying to be argumentative - just didn't think they were used for herding

<sigh>

You obviously do not understand the HGH qualification. Herding isn't just a trial like the ISDS trials. The dogs have to gather the sheep(or cattle) in one pasture, move them along roads(usually through a town)to another pasture, the shepherd then shows the dog the limit of the area the sheep(or cattle)are to graze on & walk the line over which the stock is not to cross. the dog is then left for the final part of the test & observed to check if the dog can restrict the stock from going over the line, this is how the shepherding skill & aboility of the dog is judged

<t really amuses me because everyone & his/her partner are experts in GSDs(no other breed has this)>

I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I know I shouldn't but I have to say it, this statement from Moonmaiden who operates from the unshakeable belief that SHE is the only one that knows anything at all about GSD's, and is so condescending in her replies to posts - like the last one <sigh>

MickB For my money, you're the best type of expert there is. German sloping dogs also made me laugh.
Kat

<sigh>

You obviously do not understand the HGH qualification.

Well yeah, I said that didn't I ?- no need to be sarcastic it was a genuine question. Thanks for the explanation that was all that was needed

I have to agree.   Although the people in those breeds tend to be less, shall we say, 'vocal' in their damnation of the 'other side'


LOL Are you suggesting GSD folk are gobby?!!!! :-O

Fascinating reading but I'm not getting drawn into heated debates! 

I don't need to - I know I'm right! ;-) ;-) ;-)

>I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I know I shouldn't but I have to say it, this statement from Moonmaiden who operates from the unshakeable belief that SHE is the only one that knows anything at all about GSD's, and is so condescending in her replies to posts - like the last one <sigh>

????? I forgot you have a lifetime's experience in GSDs

I was told by a vet that the German dogs have the worst hips in the world because they don't have a"straight"back(sic), strange really as his own English bred dog had had both hips replaced because it had severe HD(& came from unscored parents)

It does amuse me that people who have never owned, trained, handled or lived in close proximity of the breed can always remember when their uncle, grandfather, etc etc etc had a wonderful square Alsatian(sic)that was a superb specimen of the breed in every way & believe that GSDs have always been bred to be police dogs. A famous Labrador/Border Terrier breeder slated the German dogs in her newspaper column, then when she judged the breed at an open show, put up a dog who had bitten previous judges & tried to bite her-mind you she did have a lovely long body & her topline was completely level from the shoulders to the tailset in stance-so temperament didn't matter-as she wrote in her critique(the bitch was from pure English Breeding that went back to the 1920's)

Well you did appear to believe that GSDs are used as flock/herd guards ??? they are not their job is to confine the sheep/cattle to a set area & to drive back any animal that tries to transgress-the clue is in the name shepherd dog

Flock/herd guards bond with the sheep, they do not herd the sheep/cattle A total different type of dog

The Anatolian shepherd dog is used to guard the flock against predators ie This dog will not "herd" your flock. The flock can go wherever it chooses; the dog's only purpose is to protect against predators . So the word Shepherd means different thing obviously also definition of shepherd dog is any of various usually long-haired breeds of dog reared to herd and guard sheep

and I did say I thought Shepherd dogs were used to guard NOT German SD's

I rest my case MM, it is right there in the first line of your reply. given that you really know nothing about me that condescending attitude is simply SO unnecessary. Methinks you were not socialised enough in your first 6 months of life :)

I never answer posts as though I am the only person who DOES know anything about GSDs even though I HAVE owned them for over 20 years (although of course your experience will be so much longer, and naturally far superior :) ) and in any case a lifetimes experience does not in itself grant wisdom or knowledge, especially the latter if you have a closed mind. I am always ready and willing to hear other viewpoints/experiences and not dismiss them because they aren't MY views/experiences. I am sure we all know of people who have owned a specific breed of dog for a lifetime who spout the biggest load of codswallop known to man.  So often in your posts you cite instances as you have above,  and then it turns out their dog had the worst hips ever, oh and of course it was only ever a dog of yours or of german descent that had a 0/0 hip score, even though, oddly enough my dogs grandfather had this coveted score, and is not of German lines.

Couldn't you for once try and play just a little bit nicely? I will be far more graceful and say that I am sure that you have a wealth of experience (but not exclusively) which could benefit a lot of people, but it is sadly lost in your ascerbic tone. You might try listening to another point of view for once instead of 'stamping' on it, who knows YOU might actually learn something.

>The Anatolian shepherd dog is used to guard the flock against predators

In Turkey there are no Anatolian Shepherd dogs this is a name given to them by countries other than the country of origin. In Turkey they are called Kangal The Name they are registered with with non Turkish Kennel Clubs is similar to the UK KC calling GSDs Alsatians

>and of course it was only ever a dog of yours or of german descent that had a 0/0 hip score

??????? Where did I say my dog had the only ever 0 hip score ????? Bully for your dog's Grandfather for having a 0 score & being non German breeding. If more breeders with non German GSDs would hip score their kennels dogs would benefit. Are you aware that a well known breeder of English GSDs sold a puppy to a working trials home(the buyer preferred the English Type)from unscored parents, that resulted in a court case because the dog had severe HD & was not fit for purpose ?

The Vet's dog did not have the worst hips ever he had severe HD & was in pain(one of my BC's had severe HD but had no clinical signs)hence the hip operations, nowhere did I write that the dog had a 104 hip score-the dog was never scored-it didn't need to be..

What is true is if you attend shows were the non German dogs are shown(which I do as I attend the Obedience show they run at the same time)is that the dogs do have excessive hind angulation & are more like 11:7 in length to height ratio(I've measured the dog's photographs). This does mean they do not have the level topline in movement that the breed standard requires. However if the breeders & judges are happy that these dogs fit the breed standard that is their right.

A simple way of ensuring that only healthy fit GSDs are bred from is for them to have pass a breed survey, which includes the dogs being measured height & length, hip & elbow scored & males Haemophilia tested, Obedience tested(not Schutzhund standard but BH(all bitches taken to Germany to be bred to SV registered GSDs have to have this qualification)) BH isn't hard to train for & at least the dogs temperament would have to be sound(& that applies to both sides of GSDs-there are incorrect temperaments on both sides)& the assessors do not have to be breeders/judges of the German GSD & the measuring & health testing could be done by impartial helpers

Would either sides agree-no why ? because breeders who only do conformation showing don't want to bother training their dogs for anything other than the show ring

One thought that has crossed my mind:

How would the breed be split?  Germanic dogs on one side - English on the other.  All well and good, but what about the dogs inbtween those two extreme types?  Where do they fit in?  You can't just do it on breeding either - what about those with half and half pedigrees?  It's all very well saying the breed should be split but exactly how would that happen?  Other breeds have been split on coat type and size.  This isn't the case for those that want this split.

If someone could explain how it will happen I'd be very grateful :)

Debs

Probably split by the look of the breed, there are vast differences between an English lined GSD and a German lined GSD, even without extremes.

I don't know what they would do about the lines as a lot of them have recent German blood added.  There is a tendency recently in some to double up on the English line creating dominancy and nice bunch of recessives.  Some, not all, haven't exactly been first in the queue when it came to health testing and temperament is another case in point as some, not all, can be very highly strung but on saying that there are some screwy dogs in the German lines too. 

But I really wish some of them would come on here and explain why they want this split?  What for?  What good benefit is it going to bring to the GSD breed? 

I find it so sad when the split in the breed is so wide as to make it impossible to mend and I do believe this to be the case now with the GSD.
I (In another life) showed and worked GSD's, back in the early 80's and had what in my opinion was a nice middle of the road type. Very similar in type to Shootersway Lido. This was an improvement in my mind to the rather dippy backed Fenton of Kentwood who was a popular stud of his era. Both could be considered way off the lines of Jalk V Fahlenbrunnen who was the German Sieger of 1963 and considered to be very well constructed. Look the three up and see the vast differences in type!
I no longer own GSD's I have been so dissolutioned with the breed split and the back biting that exists between the camps. I could no longer handle my own dogs with any degree of competence with the extended gaiting that is evident in today's more modern type. (Not fit enough LOL) Why do we need it? the sight hounds are a dog based on movement but the seem to be able to asses it without a marathon?
My main concern with so many I see in the rings now is the hind construction, maybe it is just my opinion but I would say Cow hocks are a terrible problem? Opinions please?
I also think a lot of todays "Modern" type bitches are too light in construction and would be hard pressed to knock out a wolf? They can certainly gait...and gait..and gait, but for a SHEPHERD they need more than speed and flowing movement to do their jobs correctly. In the same vein they need strong backs and well constructed frames to work all day, dippy backs do not hold up to the work loads expected of a working dog.
I am saddened and hope somehow the status quo may be restored..but I doubt it.
Aileen.

With you on that Aileen!  Both mine were middle of the road.  That's why I went into Belgians, BUT, unfortunately the same is happening to them!!  They are getting finer all the time.  What seems to be bred now has not got no bone, you could blow them over!!

Sarah.

this was a problem Sarah I agree but certainly on the continent they have now redressed the problem of hypertypical bone structure and are now breeding for more bone and substance - and breeders here in the UK have used continental dogs extensively to try and retain the soundness without losing the elegance.

The BSD in the UK is now so much 'in tune' with what is being produced in Europe that British Dogs have won both sets of CACIB's at the breed nationality recently.....and continental breeders are now coming over here to use some of our dogs .

It is a shame that the GSD fraternity is so divided that they cannot work in harmony with the best producers around the world but remain convinced that they have nothing to learn from other countries.

Yvonne