one of my friends overseas is a breeder and exhibitor of a very special scent hound breed, and is looking to import a new dog for her lines. her travesl have taken her all across europe to visit kennels and dogs. I thought I would have a nosey on the internet myself out of curiosity as I too have considered one of the breed, as I adore hers......so imagine my surprise to find someone in the UK is breeding them...and...wait for it....will sell pups at 12 weeks old, "once neutered"!!!!! I have had to read it several times to make sur e Im not imagining it or reading it wrong....but no....they say clearly on the site....
[i]"Generally a puppy is not released until they are fully inoculated and worming is complete, this is approximately at ten/ twelve weeks of age.  This is to prevent any cross infection which could endanger the puppy's health and welfare.
During this time, castration/ neutering is normally undertaken. "

Surely not. There must be some sort of mistake here.

I didn't think any vet in the UK would neuter that young surely? Have you spoken to your friend SAM who knows the breed well as to whether this has been done in America or other countries with it being a 'special scent hound' I've heard of precautions but this is ridiculous, what is wrong with plain endorsements. :-(

The Mayhew animal home neuter/spay from 12 weeks old and that's not just for the dogs going through the rescue it's in their neutering clinic which any one can use.

It's commonly done with pedigree kittens here. (No, I don't do it -don't agree with it for a variety of reasons.)

Is this not an american thing swimming across to us .. though ..I watch the animal planet channel and it seems the norm to do this to pups before they are available for adoption ...and kitties too...

There are a few rescues in the UK who routinely neuter puppies and kittens at and around 12 weeks, The Mayhew is one and AllBreeds rescue is another. I don't know if anyone here is a member of the rescue site Dog Pages but there are frequent long threads on there on this subject, there are some fairly evangelical points of view put forward on both sides.

It is actually becoming quite popular in Australia for many breeders to spay or neuter puppies early prior to placement in there new homes. Many do it to so that unscrupulous people can not get hold of there lines and also to stop those that just want one litter for all the usual excuses.

We do have limit registration here where a pup is not eligible to be bred from or to be shown but can participate in any other venue. But unfortunately many will still breed with them as well.

It also helps in those popular breeds to stop the ever increasing number of designer breeds is cavoodles, cockerpoos etc.

Personally i dont as i have seen the result of desexing early and am not at all keen on it. My puppy buyers are encouraged to wait until after a first season in a bitch and till about 12 months for a dog.

unfortunately our own dear kc wont yet recognise the breed sepite them being fci recognised all over rest of europe and world so endorsements wont suffice....but i still find it ridiculous.

Wylie,
Why do any of the breeders bother to breed? they should be limited,  to one litter in the dogs life, if they do it for the dogs benifit, in my opinion, it's just a large money making buisness.
Rescue dogs! diffrent story. the problems that must arise from being spayed without a health reason, at such a young age.

Denese

> The Mayhew animal home neuter/spay from 12 weeks old and that's not just for the dogs going through the rescue it's in their neutering clinic which any one can use

that seems really silly to me. i totally agree with resuce places that the dogs that go through them should be neutered, there are good reasons for it, but it shouldn't be to the detriment of the animals health, which spaying so early would be. we had a rescue boy before who we got at approx six months, the rescue said they didn't want to spay him yet and got us to arrange it for when he was older. seems much more sensible.

I've recently returned from New Zealand where it is still legal to sell kittens and puppies in pet shops. They are all neutered at 8 weeks before they go on sale.  Most of the puppies are pure breds selling for twice the price you would pay from any breeder. I met a lady once who had rescued a Bichon Frise with behaviour problems and she said the bitch had been spayed at six weeks! I myself neutered my fist dogs at around 5 months (I didn't know any better at the time) I was told that it was the resposible thing to do and as one of my boys had a retained testicle that it was very urgent.

> is still legal to sell kittens and puppies in pet shops. They are all neutered at 8 weeks before they go on sale

well abhorrent as it is to sell pups etc in shops and much as the nutering at that age is not right at least they can't be used for the unscrupulous purpose you can bet their parents were.

Denese

Many of them desex early so that others do not get a hold of there lines. Its quite common actually and many vets here in Australia are doing it even with toy breeds.

i actually got fed up with a vet when i moved to our new place and was using them when ever i took in puppies for shots to be asked when they were going to be desexed as they could do them early. I informed them politely i was not interested. I have since changed vets and they are marvellous.

I can understand some breeders when they have used carriers or affecteds of DNA issues and can also understand those breeds targetted by designer dog breeders but i dont like it and dont do it.

And i do have Carrier status of CEA in many of my breeding stock but as so few of mine go into breeding homes and most go into pet homes desexing later by me is encouraged.

I wonder how many sold by reputable breeders are bred from though?  I am 99% sure that none of my puppy owners have bred from their dogs and I've had my Spanish for 16 years and we've had the Pom's for 29.

Hi Wylie,
Eventually all the show dogs ect; are going to be in-breed, there will be no new blood available. Health problems will double. I can understand you getting fed up being bulled in to have them spayed. It brings a very  large income to the vets. Not considering the out come to the puppies. I bet many of them have problems after, then have to attend the vets yet again.

Denese

i would think it very expensive to spay a whole litter! and why do it for a rare breed?

exactly sara....how are they ever going to get recognition here if the only person who seems to have them, neuters all their puppies???? just doesnt make sende. Luckily there are a lot of caring breeders on the continent!

it does seem silly and not in the best interest of either the breed or the individual dogs.

Agreed, but to play devils advocate it does make "commercial" sense which goes to show what type of breeder and buyers are involved. If people will pay silly money for cross breeds then those same people wil pay through the nose for a dog that is from the only breeder in the country. Who said " a fool and their money are soon parted"? Somebody in our neck of the woods has just bred a litter of an FCI (but not KC) recognised breed after "falling in love with them" on holiday. I enquired (cos I'm nosey! ) and the sire and dam are apparently half siblings. Strange that given the time and effort of importing she never thought to contact the KC but managed to contact the paper for some free spin/advertising under the guise of her plight at not being able to register them!

Too be honest i don't think any breeder worth their salts would spay or neuture (sp) at such a young age , As in a previous thread about how to pick a potential show dog or good pup it said that any dog can change in formation and that bad points can show up at late stages as can the good ... So to me if i were presented with this (spayed and neutured at such a young age )i would run a mile and see it as bad breeder ...fullstop... The only way this kind of thing makes sense is if it is done for the pet homes (and then it is debatable whether a good thing or bad ) If a breeder put in my contract that i should get the dog spayed or neutured at a certain age as it was not a good specimen or just a pet then i would comply but would never buy a pup that was done before any devolopement was evident ...

ive never heard of this happening in the uk, certainly hasnt happened anywherw i have worked. it does definetely happen in usa and australia.

Well it is the step they are advocating responsible breeders should take in the USA when placing pups in Pet homes.  the idea is horrific, but seem to be fully supported by some of our Animal welfare charities.

I was at our breed club championship show today and have seen what neutering young males especially does.  there was a youngster between 18 months and two years who was neutered at under 6 months and looked exactly like a puppy of that age, in height features and body development, in other words stunted/retarded, though very cute and lovable boy?

> ive never heard of this happening in the uk,

I think this may surprise you: http://www.doglistener.co.uk/neutering/spaying_neutering.shtml

"In fact I have written an article pointing to the fact that a few of our "Welfare Societies" are neutering both male and female dogs as young as SIX WEEKS. "

> I am 99% sure that none of my puppy owners have bred from their dogs

Me too, and if you vet your buyers properly, this is usually the case.  I sold a bitch puppy with endorsements on her pedigree.  I genuinely believed that she would not make breeding size, although perhaps had show potential.  The purchaser was emphatic that she would never be bred from.  I did, however, say that if I was wrong about size, I would reconsider lifting restrictions.  When this bitch reached a year old, I emailed the owner, asking if the bitch had grown large enough for breeding.  She thanked me for considering lifting restrictions, but informed me that the bitch had just been spayed, and she was a much loved pet.  It just proved to me that I had accepted a responsible person for ownership of one of my precious pups.

> The only way this kind of thing makes sense is if it is done for the pet homes

I am very glad that the people who owned my Jozi before she came back to em at 8 1/2 months old did not have her spayed.

she has produced some very good offspring in her three litters, including winning grandchildren, as well as doing really well herself.

I have also sold a dog to a Pet home who decided to show him at two and made him up.

There are many cases like this.

the couple who came to the show today with their boy neutered young would now have liked to have had a go at showing, but the babyish way he looks it would be pointless.

Dogs can change ownership or owners change their mind and become more interested in their breed.

>there was a youngster between 18 months and two years who was neutered at under 6 months and looked exactly like a puppy of that age, in height features and body development, in other words stunted/retarded, though very cute and lovable boy?

The trouble is that you can't be sure that it was early castration that was the cause of that. I used to think it was, until we kept Piglet. He's still entire, but for some reason never grew how I'd expected - he still looks like a 7- or 8-month puppy. Very cute - but if he'd been sold and been castrated as a pup I'd definitely have put his lack of development down to castration. But I know for certain that it isn't the cause in his case.

My puppy information sheet recommends that if you spay / neuter not to do it before a year old or even 18 months, so the dog has finished growing. Also I have one of those breeds whose coat is ruined by spaying / neutering. I have only bred 2 puppies so far, one is in a pet home but their older male is not neutered so I am hoping they will keep my boy entire as well, and the other puppy is about to start his show career and if he passes his health & temperament checks will be bred to their female. I am not against selling puppies to people who want to breed responsibly, but it's hard to be sure isn't it!

Yes! I agree you can never always tell till full maturity, when some pups reach their best. The pup  still inherits the good gense, the same as it's litter mates.
I somtimes think people are very short sighted in respect to this. A lovely puppy may not reach it's expected protential in adult hood. No one can be 100% sure.
Some pet dogs could out rank a lot of show dogs in the ring.

> The only way this kind of thing makes sense is if it is done for the pet homes

Was thinking more along the lines of mismarked pups to be honest , but i don't think it is a good idea at all really , think that maybe keeping back pedigree's or ownership certificates ,until puppy is neutered maybe better ...

With all the will in the world how are they finding the vets to do this? Surely vets have standards and do not do things just because the owner want it to happen.....I thought (!) they would only do such a thing if it was for health reasons.

MONEY ..probably ... not all vets but i suppose some are thinking on a buisness sense , I know a lady who asked for a hernia to be closed while her dog was being neutered , but the vet told her it did not need doing as it was small... low and behold at his booster the vet advised her to get it sorted , The lady said it was no bigger than when she first asked him to do it ...She had it done but does feel he could have done it while he was being neutered ...

You have to remind yourself that they are running a business !. I went in last week to have my old girls eyes checked and came out with shampoo at £25. I stood in the car park and wondered what had a happened !

LOL....  with my first pup i had (a few years ago .lol.)I went for the puppy injections and came out with allsorts ...lol... sample sized toothpaste( well thats what i would have called it , reminded me of the avon samples the rep gives you ..lol... )The toothbrush that you put on your finger and all little sample sized goodies i thought i was getting free ...lol... well his injection cost 65 quid and that was about 15 years ago ...lol... Fool and her money ... yep that was me ... i stood at home and was in complete disbelief  as my bag of goodies was no bigger than a poo bag with a cavalier poo in it ....