I have a 6-month old GSD with severe fear aggression.  Got him at 7 weeks and socialised him as often as possible.  Was very nervous right from the start, hiding behind my legs whenever we met someone.  Started barking at people about 6 weeks ago and has now learnt that by doing this he can keep people away.  Saw behaviourist last weekend - she said she hadn't seen much of this kind of behaviour before in such a young dog.  Awaiting her report (hopefully with her recommendations) , however, felt very depressed myself after she had gone as I was of the opinion that she didn't think there was much hope for him.  My husband and myself are devastated at the thought of losing him and would try anything we could in order to 'turn him around'.

Don't loose hope! At such a young age things can be turned round, with a lot of hard work. See what her report comes back with, but did she not give you any guidance at your meeting?

The first behaviourist I saw with my Dobe girl, although from a well-respected practice, was next to useless (IMO), but I have subsequently been seeing another, who is much more positive and things are progressing, if somewhat slowly. A lot will depend on methods used, all my training with Hattie is positive, praise-based.

Good luck, and think positive!!!

Dogs go through various stages in thier development and can have a 'second fear imprint period (6 - 14 Months)'.
Although your pup may be showing much more fear above the norm, he is still a pup and there is plenty of time to help him out :)

http://www.doberman.org/articles/puppy.htm      puppy development, including fear imprint periods & adolescene.

http://www.msu.edu/~silvar/fear.htm    this article is aimed at desensitizing a fearfull-aggresive puppy/dog to people

Your pup just needs lots of patience :)

Only a thought, do you have any sensible, well adjusted doggy friends who you could walk with. It might just take his mind off being so fearful if he has a doggy friend with him. Does he like treats? I have made friends (slow but very sure) with a very frightened x bred rescue lab. She will now take treats from my hand, I only see her at agility shows, but we are making progress. She comes to me willingly & takes the treat. I am positive given time she will allow me to stroke her, but I am not pushing it. Slow, positive & sure is they key. Have you joined a training club?

however, felt very depressed myself after she had gone as I was of the opinion that she didn't think there was much hope for him.

Try not to make your own conclusions of what the behaviourist has sumized, she may just have been in thought, wait for her report, of course your pup is not irreversable. :-)

Plenty of hope for your pup, remember all behaviourists are different too, if you don't like her conclusion try another one.  Your pup is so young and there is nothing to not stop this pup from becoming more confident.

Remember your own feelings and fears are very easily transfered onto a pup, if a pups mum (you) is confident and upbeat it will help your pup immensly.  As already said pups do go through fear stages and personally I would sumize this is all that it is, as long as your pup is kept safe he will outgrow this phase with no problems.

Is he confident in the house, will he happily play with you and hubby, tug rope games etc, is it only when you have visitors that he is wary, is he a nervous pup in any other way (noise phobic etc) apart from people orientated?

He's so young so please don't be upset, he certainly can become a confident dog especially if you have a good behavourist, I hope that you have misjudged her opinion, if not then quite frankly this behaviourist isn't with the print on paper as no young dog is a lost cause.

Try the happy go lucky approach to show your pup there is nothing to fear just for starters, and hopefully you will have a much longer report from the behaviourist of ways to encourage and give your pup confidence. :-)

> He's so young so please don't be upset, he certainly can become a confident dog especially if you have a good behavourist, I hope that you have misjudged her opinion, if not then quite frankly this behaviourist isn't with the print on paper as no young dog is a lost cause.
>

totally agree :)

also totally agree, some dogs are just harder work than others, i know several dogs with that display that behaviour so i wouldnt say it was very rare, perhaps she hasnt been doing it long, mine also sometimes on lead has a bark if a strange dog invades his space, i have learnt to manage it. dont worry, there are ways and means etc, and there are always people on here that can share their experiences. xx

Hi Cody
Just wondering how you are going on with your pup. Have you had the report from the behaviourist? I had a GSD bitch who behaved like this, after a lot of work she turned into a very loving confident character. For months we took her to a quiet, predictable location, and let her see people, dogs, etc from a distance. It was very important that we knew her "critical distance" ie just how close to an object she could be before she reacted. Once we had ascertained this we kept her well outside that distance and rewarded her for calm behaviour. It was important to keep that distance as the last thing we wanted was for her react. At first she was anxious and watching for people and dogs, but gradually after a number of days with no "incidents" she started to relax enough to play with a tug-a-ball. Each and every time a person or dog appeared we were careful not to let them get within her comfort zone. After a few weeks she was totally relaxed and apart fom a cursory glance did not bother when people/dogs appeared. We then moved her a tiny distance closer (about 10 feet) and repeated the process for a number of weeks. Although it was a very slow process we could eventually have her within 30 feet of dogs/people, happy and relaxed, playing with her precious tug-a-ball. I should mention that we always had her on a long-line to prevent her rushing forward to "to scare off the intruder". Once we had got her to within 20 feet I enlisted the help of a couple of walkers with steady "been there, seen that, got the badge" dogs and walked her side by side, maintaining the 20 foot gap between us. Over the days we gradually reduced the distance until the dogs were walking side by side. Any time when she appeared a little tense, we increased the gap by a couple of feet until she was relaxed once more. At no time did anyone speak or look at her, but once she was happy to walk within close proximity of them, I had then drop bits of food on the floor. At first she was wary, but gradually relaxed. We let he set the pace and after a few days she started approaching them happily, gobbling up the titbits off the floor, then I had them hold their hand by their side with a bit of food in it. Again she was wary but as they continued to chat to me in a relaxed manner, paying her no attention at all, she braved herself and took the food from their hand. It probably took her a week to move from taking food dropped off the floor to happily taking it from their hand. I did this with one person at a time, and before we knew it she had quite a circle of friends. The whole process wasn't easy and at times I felt like we were going backwards, but it was worth it. By the time she was 18 months, she was a happy, confident girl. If you think I may be able to help you please feel free to pm me.

Appreciate your comments.  Report contained guidance such as change of diet/give vitamin B/try a DAP collar as well as other more obvious suggestions such as keep dog away from other poeple for the time being etc.  We have followed everything wherever possible but quite honestly havent seen any change in him.  He reacts to any slight noise in the house or any sudden movement (ie sometimes we only have to get up from a chair!) by barking.  We try to keep him away from people outside of the house but if we should suddenly be approached he will lunge and bark in order to keep them away (especially small children/joggers etc) and if he was off lead we know for a fact he would chase the joggers although our one experience of this showed him to chase them (from behind) up to about a metre away, then he turned and came back to us.  Behaviourist has told us it is very rare to find this fear aggression in such a young dog and has now suggested trying prescribed medication as a last resort.  We don't know what to do next cos this has completely taken over our lives now.

I am no qualified behaviourist, but keeping a dog away from something it is fear aggressive about is not going to help it get over the problem. He needs controlled exposure to people for him to have the chance to learn they are not scary.

Please have a look at the following article:

http://www.msu.edu/~silvar/fear.htm

I would be inclined to find a behaviourist that has dealt with this before. It is not uncommon for dogs of this age to suddenly develop fears and I would be wary of any behaviourist that has advised medication to treat a behaviour problem in such a young dog & so soon after seeing him. (your first post dated 3rd april said you saw behaviourist the previous weekend, making it only 2 weeks ago). Fear is probably one of the hardest things to help a dog overcome, 2 weeks is no time whatso ever for any training to have had an effect.

I would aslo get your pup to the vets for a good check over, including his eyesight, if nothing medical is found then at least you know this is purely a behaviour problem and not a sympton to an underlying condition/poor eyesight.

I agree, am very sceptical about using prescribed medication at this stage.  (Would point out that my dog hasn't 'suddenly' developed these fears - we began to notice them as soon as we got him at 7 weeks).  Also, we visited a vet initially in order to get a behaviourist's referral.

Medication ??? OMG he's at an age when puppies can develop fears of things that they have been fine with before, I had a really outgoing Beardie bitch who became terrified of white marks on the floor, she would do anything to aviod them, took a lot of patience & coaching for her to overcome it.

The fact that you bought an obviously poorly reared GSD(nervousness is not a normal GSD trait at any age)means that you should have gone overboard with the socialization from day one, taking him to a decent training club, just to sit & watch, out & about in your arms etc I would expect a 7 weeks old correctly reared GSD to be bold & outgoing, I know all my puppies were & all the dogs I bought in as puppies were also outgoing. Sorry to be a bit critical of the breeder & of you for buying a nervous puppy, but GSDs need good handling from the day they are born, so that they always feel safe in the present of people & other dogs(mind you this applies to all breeeds IMHO)

Were the mother/father nervous ? what was the rest of the litter like ?

I would go down the natural treatment route & include a session with a T Touch practitioner, before filling a dog with chemicals that only mask & do not cure the problem

Where abouts are you based Cody?

I agree that you need to confront the problem in a controlled way rather than avoiding it altogether. The behaviourist/trainer I am seeing with Hattie has given me the same sort of advice, walks in the back of beyond with little chance of meeting other dogs/people, change of diet etc. BUT, then we have sessions with him, introducing other dogs in a controlled, positive way, and I have to say it is slowly (and I mean slowly) working (I've been seeing this trainer for about 2 months now).

I think medication should be a real last resort, once all medical checks and re-training methods have been exhausted.

Agree we were naive when buying the puppy - he was the last of the litter and I am afraid to say I wasn't aware of what I was meant to be looking out for.  We did socialise him from the first day at training club etc.  Father was very outgoing and friendly but must admit didn't see much of mother.  (Realise our mistakes now but obviously can't turn the clock back and return him) so we just need to get on and do whatever we can for him.  His main problem appears to be fear of anything unpredictable - ie if we change his walking route, or if we present him with a new ball etc.  - unbelievable examples but they really do throw him.  Main worry though is his aggressive attitude towards strangers which we have now been advised he is unlikely to ever get over - and the best we can expect is to learn how to cope better with his situation ourselves.

> Also, we visited a vet initially in order to get a behaviourist's referral.

That's good then, didn't realise you had allready had the vet check him. I take it his eye sight has been given the all-clear?
I do think you could make major progress with the right behaviourist, you need  one that comes over as much more confident (IMO), that in inself would help support you in helping your pup. The more confident you are about him overcoming this fear, the more it will help him.

Taking a pup for a walk sounds like a simple thing to do - every puppy loves to go for a walk don't they? No, not with my pup, it took me a couple of months before he would go for a simple walk, he found it so scary being outside he would just lay on the floor & wet himself, shaking with fear :(  (he would happily go into the garden though) With persistance, patience and only working in the pups limits (never forcing him into anything, only encouraging him) he now loves to go out & can't wait for his walks. I know this is a different fear than your pup, but even though your pup seems very bad, it can be overcome but it can't be forced and there definately isn't a quick-fix.

I am based in Harold Wood - Essex.

The trainer I'm seeing is based in Hertfordshire. Would that be too far for you? He has/had GSDs himself I think. If you are interested I can PM you his details (not sure if I can post on here?).

Hi Cody
Have replied to your pm.

I thought I was reading about my own dog for a moment there! He also had severe fear aggression which was taking over our lives, and is still to some extent. We bought him at 7 weeks from a reputable breeder and saw both parents. He was the biggest of the litter of 10, but was also at the bottom of the pile being "roughed up" by the rest! I liked the little girl who came up to me with wagging tail and started playing with my laces, OH like the one who was being bullied. Oh how I wish now that I had stuck to my guns and chosen the little girl. From the moment we got home, he cried and screamed and yelped at everyone. We took him to puppy classes as soon as he'd had his jabs - he hid behind my legs - he cried - he whined. We took him on holiday - he cried - he whined. We took him camping - he cried - he whined. He hated people approaching him, and that was at 12 weeks. We sat outside Tesco's trying to get him used to people - he cried - he whined. Now he's almost 2 years old and we have come along in leaps and bounds. I know it's hard, but persistence and consistency is vital. He is a beautiful, big, strong dog who loves us to bits but he still hates people coming into the house other than the ones he already knows. There is no middle ground with him, he either loves or hates! I could never give him up, I love him too much, our lives have changed and we are still working on his aggression to strangers at home, but I am sure that we get there, his good points now outweigh his bad points.  Just keep chipping away, get a good behaviourist, and he just might turn out to be the best dog you've ever had!

Soozy
x

nervousness is not a normal GSD trait at any age

Absolutely agree Moonmaiden, they are usually very confident pups. But what is done is done.

No, No, No, to the medication Cody, (at least not at this stage of his life) new behaviourist please.

It seems to me to be part age appropriate fear, (though intensified) and part territorial/protective behaviour towards yourself. Part of me is saying just leave him to grow up a little more.

Barking and running after the jogger so close to bite but not actually doing it, (as do many, many breeds of dog if allowed) does not make me feel him aggressive he is reacting as many puppies do, barking at other walkers is also something many other dogs do, so don't become dishearted at these particular problems, once out of puppyhood dogs are not interested in doing these things. (well most) so don't panic. Perhaps because you have a GSD you are more worried than if this behaviour were from a terrier or smaller breed, but he is no more likely to bite than a smaller breed, he just sounds more frightening.

I do believe this will sort with age, I think much of this behviour needs to be ignored, i.e, barking when moving from your chairs, any reaction from you even to say it's ok is highlighing there may be a problem. Just completely ignore him. Try to learn to relax and laugh infront of him, when he is barking.

He obviously is a very nervous pup, I don't doubt that for a minute or you would not be so worried about him, I'm hoping with all my heart that he will calm down as he gets older. GSD's mature at approx 3 years so he has a long time in puppyhood and adolescence to become a much more confident dog, don't try to rush things, let him go through his fear factors, give him nothing to be afraid of, and allow him to face his own fears in his own time.

T Touch is a good idea, but if he were my dog I wouldn't be looking at any sort of medication until he were over 3 and has gone through his growing stages. And please don't neuter this dog, it may take away the only back bone he has.

Would be very interested to hear other peoples' views regarding amichien bonding method - both positive and negative. 

Hi Cody,

I'm not a fan of the "inventor" of this title and it's meaning.  There is nothing "amiable" IMO about the methods towards our dogs and certainly I can see no reason why the word "bonding" has been attribted to the techniques applied.   The concept on which these methods were devised by Jan Fennell, self proclaimed "Dog Listener" were based on flawed theory of "packs" and "ranks" within said packs - i.e. we, the humans, are (or rather ought to be in her view,) pack leaders ....... because if we're not our four legged friends, regardless of breed, type, temperament, individuality are very likely to be plotting the route towards world domination of the human species

I've been reading your thread and TBH until now hesitant to comment.  What I have felt is sadness that a so called behaviourist has even mooted medication being used on such a young dog when there are so many things which over time can be resolved by understanding the causes of behaviours and thereby finding best how to resolve undesirable traits.

It may be that you have a long road ahead of you to resolve your dog's issues but hopefully you will be able to source a behaviourist who has a positive outlook on how best to work with the dog and yourself.  Often we are too close to a problem and so describe a reaction to a situation which in fact is not at all accurate - i.e. we have misread the true reason behind the reaction simply because we are not fully au fait with canine body language and in part because we've made an association with an incident which the dog didn't.  Sometimes we attribute responses as being aggressive which in fact were not, yes there may be an instinctive behaviour by the dog to scare something off because the dog ITSELF is afraid, but the dog would not escalate a warning or similar body signals were this "threat" to continue.

I am sure there will be some useful info on this thread from which you can gather thoughts towards the best way forward however bear in mind that advice relating to serious behavioural issues is only a guestimate of how best to proceed as none of us have witnessed or personally assessed your dog.

best wishes, Teri

Just want to say how pleased I am to have found this website (only recently) - as I really appreciate all the feedback received so far - both positive and negative.

Can anyone actually recommend, through personal experience with similar problems to mine, a behaviourist in the Essex area?

Hi Cody,

in case nobody is aware of anyone personally in your area, it would be worth contacting the APDT to see if they can recommend someone within reasonable distance of you, particularly if you make them as aware as possible of the specific issues you're experiencing.

HTH, Teri

Cody, I've PM'd you.

The following link is very informative and a great help with understanding and reading a dog's body language.

http://www.canis.no/rugaas/onearticle.php?artid=1