Been at the vets a few times this week with Casie.  It started where she wouldnt eat a thing, not even cookies.  Kept watching her, hoping it was just a thing she was going through.  The only other time she went off her food was when she was pregnant.  My aunt thought it could be bloat, but thankfully it wasnt that. 

Went to the vets, explained what was going on, that she wouldnt eat a thing!  Also explained, that there is a small small chance of her possibly being pregnant.  When Sunny was here, he was very interested in her, but Casie was showing no signs of heat.  No swelling, anything.  But they did manage to escape to the other room for a bit (not sure exactly how long) without us noticing.  But the vet checked that out, and thank goodness she isnt pregnant.  They thought it could be just a stomach bug, and that she would eat eventually, and sent us home.

The next day, Casie couldnt go to the washroom.  So we rang the vets again, and brought her in.  Did bloods, which shows sugars and phosphorus (which apparently shouldnt be there in the blood) with a low liver enzyme level.  They wanted to get a urine sample, and it took 6 hours for her to finally dribble a bit.

Ran that, and it came back with crystals in the bladder. 

She is on antibiotics, and special food.  Antibiotics for 10 days, and the special food for a month.  She is not allowed to have any other food, no treats or anything, for the next month, other than this canned food.

Does anyone else have any experience with crystals?  The last time I dealt with crystals, was in a cat, and it kept coming back in him, and he went really down hill and had to be PTS.  Is crystals in dogs, the same as in cats?  Could Casie have this be a cronic problem?

I am just nervous.  From my last experience. 

She is starting to urinate a bit, but not much, and is out in the garden every hour or so or she has dribbles in the house. 

Hi Crespin

I know crystals can go on to turn into bladder stones but Jeangenie should be along soon and hopefully give you better info (one of her lads had this problem a while back).

To my knowledge I think care of crystal/stone formers is an ongoing and permanent situation and usually dealt best with careful dietary management.

regards, Teri

Sorry to hear about casie's problem. 18 months ago one of my dals blocked like that and had to have emergency surgery to remove the stone. He healed well, but treatment (dietary) is lifelong, and varies according to the type of crystals - has the vet told you what type Casie is forming? If the urine isn't sufficiently dilute, and is allowed to sit in the bladder for hours, crystals have a nasty habit of clumping together and forming a stone, and this is what causes the obstruction. They also irritate the lining of the bladder, causing infections and making urination painful. Whatever type they are you need to make sure she always drinks plenty (if you feed a dry food, soak it well before giving it to her) and has plenty of opportunity (every 2 or 3 hours during the day) to urinate and flush her bladder out.

There is plenty of information on the net; I found this site, as well as this one are very helpful.

Good luck - it's a very worrying time but with the right diet and monitoring Casie should go on to live a long healthy life. :-)

sorry to hear that shes been unwell.
generally cats get it much worse than dogs due to the urethra being a lot smaller and easier blocked. a cats can get blocked with the tiniest of crystals, whereas dogs you generally get a warning beforehand (blood in urine, dribbling rather than full flow etc)
the diets can work really well depending on the crystals and whether there is a food designed for that particluar type, there are many different varieties of stones.
i have seen several large ones removed from dogs, very impressive looking, can be very large and jagged, seen some up to several inches across!
good luck!

The vet didnt say what "type" of crystals she has.....didnt know that there was many types.  What they did tell us, is that she has high sugar and phosphorus levels in both her blood and her urine.  They told us it was from dehydration (even though she has been drinking above normal amounts of water.)  They came out with her antibiotics, saying that she needs to be on them for 10 days.  They said "she has crystals".  and then handed over some Hills s/d canned food. 

She is doing good now, seems more playful right now.  She isnt growling at everyone (she growled a bit at my sister the other day, without my sister touching her). 

She is eating better, and actually wants her food.  She is drinking about normal today, and has had only one dish of water (when the other day she went through 3 dishes in a few hours....but still couldnt pee).

She is entered in a show next weekend, but not sure if we are going to pull her or not.  Depends on how she is getting on.  She has to go with us, since she has to take her medication and eat her food, as well as it wouldnt be fair to ask her to hold her bladder all day while Cher and Sunny are at the show.

Will check out the sites you suggested, thanks so much JG. 

A special food called S/d diet is made by Hills for the specific purpose of dissolving struvite stones.

(taken from http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&C=&A=460&SourceID=  )

So from reading this article, I am thinking thats the type of stones it is that Casie has.

I think struvite stones are linked with alkaline urine and urine infections, and are the most common form of crystal in most breeds.

My Piggy had the typical dalmatian urate stones which form in acidic urine, and the breed inability to convert uric acid to urea, so the treatment is totally different - the medical diet is Hills u/d.

Make sure to double-check with your vet what sort of crystals were seen, so that you know what you're dealing with.

We have to call them tomorrow to give them an update.  Will mention it to the vet, to figure out what type of crystals they are. 

Hopefully they can also figure out a better way to get a urine sample, as it is VERY hard to do with a small dog, and a bitch for that matter.  Ended up having to tape a baggy to her, oh poor thing.  She gave the most disgusted look ever, but after 6 hours or so of trying, it was either that, or taking her back to the vets to get a needle stuck in her bladder (doesnt sound to appealing). 

Oh my, had a shock today!

First off, let me say that Casie seems to be much better.  She is running round the house like a total idiot!  Never wanting to sleep, she has so much energy.  And she is urinating much easier as well.

Well, my other bitch, Cher, hadnt uriniated since early yesterday evening (Thursday).  I had to go out of town, but my mom was home, and kept trying to get her to urinate.  She finally got her to urinate at 2:30 pm today.  Mom took the sample down, to the vets, and had it analized.

Cher has a more severe case of crystals than Casie does! 

The vet is almost 100% sure it is from the food we are feeding them, which is Canidae.  I am taking the bag of food back to the store, as Canidae has a 100% satisfaction guarentee.  Now Cher is also on AB for 10 days, and on this special food for a month.

I am also very suspicious of the food, as why would BOTH my bitches have crystals?  And Cher having a more severe case than Casie, and Cher has been on Canidae longer than Casie (by about a month).

Absolutely in utter shock!

I hope she's ok for the show!

I know it's probably not related, but one of my cats used to come down with cistisis whenever I fed her on Iams, so now she just gets Hills and never has a problem.

I hope they are both feeling better soon

:)

I'm very glad she's feeling so much better! :-) But very strange that Cher has the same problem - it must be something dietary, either the food or the water. You're absolutely right to return the food - another brand is definitely called for.

Rotten luck Crespin but at at least you were clued up in advance :( 

I would certainly be changing onto a new diet - there is bound to be something out there which will suit your dogs or a readily available source of suitable ingredients for a home diet if not remaining on the prescription food.  Hopefully there is sound guidance from the links JG posted to help you in the future.

Best wishes, Teri

I hope she's ok for the show!

I dont know if I am gonna keep them entered.  I am still gonna go and take them, as since I am handling a dog, I have to be there.  Especially since the person that owns the dog, hurt their back this past weekend, so dont know if they can still handle a dog.  At this moment, Cher is being skiddish about anyone going over her.  No growling or anything, like Casie was doing, but just tucking her tail and pinning the ears.  If she looks like that, I am not gonna show her.  It obviously means she is uncomfortable.  But both bitches still have until the weekend to feel totally better, so I am not going to call the show secretary and officially pull them from the show. 

Plus, the two have to go, so they can get their food during the day (I am having to split half a can up between three meals, or they get sick, its so much more volume than they are used to), as well as their AB, and to be let out.  But if they look uncomfortable, they will stay in their crates, for the day unless I am right there to let them out. 

At least I have a month, to go look at different foods, to see which is nutritionally better for them.  I may go on a homemade diet, instead of store bought foods.  Still a little nervous about store bought foods, even though the massive recall from Menu foods was last year.  Especially more so, since the symptoms that promted the massive recall was animals experiencing bladder/urinary problems, from crystals all the way up to kidney failure/death. 

I cant believe how strict their new diet is.  They arent allowed to have any other food, for the month, other than this Hills c/d.  That includes any rawhides as well, and Cher is a chewer.  It also means I cant use my Suzies Tartar (which I add to the water to clean teeth) or their actual toothpaste.  So I cant even brush their teeth!  A toy dog without getting their teeth brushed for a month, on wet food, this could be interesting.  I hope their mouths dont get too bad, since I have been very diligent about cleaning their teeth daily.  Hopefully just a clean toothbrush will keep it under control for the month, till I can get them back on a good cleaning schedule. 

oh dear! It sounds a nightmare :(

fingers crossed a change of diet will be all that's needed

and good luck for the show anyway, for the other one you're handling ;)

Hi Crespin, why not use a piece of muslin or cotton cloth (dry) on their teeth - just wrapped around your finger?  It should help to keep the teeth cleaner than nothing at all or of course just a clean tooothbrush.

Just a thought as I dont know the product, but perhaps what you've been adding to their water is causing or contributing to the crystals? 

Hope it's resolved quickly and future management is straightforward :)

regards, Teri

Suzies Tartar Ingredients: water, glycerine, sodium benzoate, allantoin, polysorbate 20, sodium salicylate, sodium lauryl sulfate, sodium borate, green FD&C yellow No. 5.

Think I would probably be giving this a miss from now on. Sodium borate - sounds lethal!

Hope your girls get better soon.

>Boric acid, sodium borate, and sodium perborate are estimated to have a lethal dose (LD50) from 5 to 20 g/kg in humans[verification needed][3]. These substances are toxic to all cells, and have a slow excretion rate through the kidneys. Kidney toxicity is the greatest, with liver fatty degeneration, cerebral edema, and gastroenteritis

Hmm, I certainly woudn't be adding something of that ilk to drinking water - I object to LA's that routinely added fluoride!

Thanks for the link zarah :) 

You think that looks bad zarah, look at the MSDS for Sodium borate.

It is used to maintain an alkaline pH in detergents so if your girls are getting crystals caused by alkaline urine I'd be looking at the Suzie's Tartar as a possible cause.

I hope they're both better soon.

Hi Crespin,

Hope the girls continue to go from strength to strength. Out of interest, what ABs are they on? I have a thread running about my boy. He keeps sitting down on his haunches and looks woeful. He won't go upstairs and I noticed he dribbled after urinating today, so he is off to the vet this evening.

Blimey Goggles and lab coat!? Sounds lovely.

I do wonder about these types of pet products you can buy off the shelf. A friend of mine insists on using worming medication and flea treatment from the super market rather than the vets, his reason being that they're so much cheaper, despite me telling him that A) they generally don't work and B) they don't undergo the same (if any?) levels of rigorous safety testing.

This is why it's important to know what sort of crystals they are. Struvite crystals form in alkaline urine, so if that Suzie's Tartar contains chemicals which produce that (and I'm thinking that allantoin is involved as well) then that's a prime supect.

Crystals formers should ideally be given distilled water (not ordinary bottled or tap water) to drink.

> Crystals formers should ideally be given distilled water (not ordinary bottled or tap water) to drink.

I'm curious JG, do you know if fluoride been found to affect crystal formation? I can see how other minerals and salts would but wondered if fluoride was specifically looked at.

I've not heard of any studies into fluoride, I'm afraid.

>>Just a thought as I dont know the product, but perhaps what you've been adding to their water is causing or contributing to the crystals?

Now I loathe and detest the modern compensation culture of blame but if - and it's a big 'if' - this additive has contributed to this potentially life-threatening problem then I do think they should accept responsibility. After all their own advert says "Suzie's is safe for your pets!". What tests have been done?

Out of interest, what ABs are they on?

They are both on Orbax 22.7 mg (the pills are then split in half, for their weight catergory of 6 lbs)

Well, my other bitch, Cher, hadnt uriniated since early yesterday evening (Thursday).  I had to go out of town, but my mom was home, and kept trying to get her to urinate.  She finally got her to urinate at 2:30 pm today.  Mom took the sample down, to the vets, and had it analized.

Opps, sorry, wrong day!  It was Sunday evening since her last pee, and couldnt get her to pee until mid afternoon Monday.  So used to having my vocal therapy Fridays, instead of Mondays.  Sorry for the mistake!!!!  I would never neglect not being for an entire weekend!

In Regards to the Suzie's Tartar Debate:

After many reccomendations from other breeders with toy breeds, I broke down and bought a bottle of Suzies Tartar on the weekend.  Casie did not have Suzies at all, already being on her medication.  Cher had one bowl of Suzie's.   Before purchasing Suzie's, Casie was on BreathaLyser Plus, which does NOT have Sodium Borate listed as an ingredient.  Cher did not have any of the BLP, but had her teeth brushed daily with a vet supplied toothpaste.  The reason for the split in dental care, is that Casie is a witch, and hates having her teeth brushed.  Cher on the otherhand, wont let me go to bed without getting her "Teefies"  done. 

Suzie's is a complete co-incidence, in regards to these crystals forming.  I realized, after reading some of my posts, mentioning the Suzie's, it most likely gave the impression they had been on it a long time.  But this is not the case.  I appoligize. 

I am however, going to do more research on the Suzie's Tartar, in relation to animals.  Off to google.com now, to make a complete search. 

Hi again Crespin,

I'm glad you can rule something out - it obviously should help make things easier to identify what may have caused or exacerbated the condition.

TBH I would never add anything to my dogs' water other than electrolytes when in danger of being dehydrated or otherwise affected through vomitting and not eating etc.  I don't approve of adding things to our own water supply either and, in your circumstances, I would prefer to go down the route of distilled water for affected dogs as JG has suggested further up.

Neither my daughter or I drink tap water because of added fluoride and drink only bought in distilled water which is constantly in supply in the fridge.  The difference is we, as people, have a choice but our dogs dont and the addition of fluoride to water has not IMO been going on long enough for it to be established as 100% safe.

There are many and varied ways of keeping teeth clean without resorting to chemicals - raw bones being the obvious choice of most dogs (even if not their owners LOL), brushing - without paste if necessary and also homeopathic remedies such as fragaria :)

I hope you get your girls sorted soon - it must be very distressing for all of you right now.

Best wishes, Teri

Teri, where do you get your distilled water from? I looked on the net for it when Piglet was first diagnosed and the price was far too high.

Sorry Jan - its spring or still mineral water we have at home :)  I just buy it at the supermarket!

Whoa, just googled distilled water and can see why it would be prohibitive to a lot of folks!  Had no idea it was that pricey

Jan, with your vet connections is anyone you know cosy with a nearby laboratory, hospital or university with labs? I ask because when I worked in a lab we distilled our own water for cleaining glassware/making solutions so all of us had free access to it. If someone was friendly with a lab they might let you have some water for nothing or for cost of energy to produce it. If your practice has a hospital they might even have a still. I was spoiled working in a lab - I had access to all sorts of goodies!

Just chatted with my aunt, who mentioned that a lot of bitches her way are having UTIs.  They surmise that it is because of the amount of snow that has been melting, and the amount of urine and feces within that snow, causing the infections. 

She also feeds the same food I do, and has had no problems with crystals in any of her dogs. 

It is so hard trying to rule things out, as to what has caused this.  It is just shocking, that both my bitches have crystals, and so far the only commonality would be the food, and of course the back yard which they go to the washroom in.  We scoop constantly, but with the heavy snowfall we had this winter, some were missed, and of course you cant scoop up urine.  Also, the lady who lived here before, had a dog, and I am finding little "piles" everywhere, in both the front and back. 

As to adding things in water, I am going to do a lot of research on this Suzies Tartar.  When I searched it, all I saw was what the website for the product, had plastered all over the internet.

Raw bones, are something I am very hesitant to give, after quite an expensive dental bill.  I had a $1300 dental bill last year, which at first was just supposed to be the pulling of two retained puppy teeth.  When the vet was in there, he found splinters of bone, between the tooth and the gum, from dog bones sold in the pet stores.  So I just stick with the rawhides and such, which hasnt caused an issue.  You know the saying, once bitten twice shy?  Exactly that.

Right now, I am using a new toothbrush for Cher, and havent added any toothpaste to it.  Hopefully that will keep the tartar at bay, until I can get her off this canned food, and back to kibbles. 

Little update:  Both Casie and Cher, seem to be totally fine.  Although, I know to keep them on their course of treatment, but both are seeming to be just like they were.  The only thing that reminds me of the crystals, is that they are going to the washroom like crazy, but the vet said it was because of the food they are on at the moment, and it is totally normal. 

They may be shown this weekend, still not 100% sure.  Will make that call Saturday and Sunday morning when we arrive at the show.

>he found splinters of bone, between the tooth and the gum, from dog bones sold in the pet stores

Hi again Crespin, I know your not in the UK but the majority of bones sold in pet stores over here are dry roasted or bleached - I suspect the fact that you have them available in pet stores that the same methods of keeping them lying around for goodness knows how long between shipment, shop and consumer apply.

The *only* bones I would advocate giving any dog are completely raw, fresh ones.  If they are the right size for the dog - i.e. easy enough to eat such as chicken wings/thighs/backs for small dogs and large recreational bones used specifically for getting them gnawing and cleaning off dental debris - then there should be no fragments to be found anywhere (even recylced LOL ) :)

Good news about the girls improvment - hoping they're both on the road to full recovery!

best wishes, Teri

Just returned the bags of Canidae yesterday.  Think I am going to do some research about doing a homemade diet.  Then I know whats in the food, and it can have all the proper nutrient levels in it.  And I know that they are getting real food, instead of chicken feet, they will get actual chicken pieces.  Just gotta find out the right stuff to put into the food.  I have never fed anything but kibbles, so I want to make sure I know what I am supposed to do, before I try to feed it to them! 

They are doing really well.  So I am taking them to the show today.  If they act strange there, then I will pull them.  But so far this past couple days, they are really acting like their old selfs.

Hopefully the AB have really cleared it up.  Casie ends hers today, and Cher has another 3 days I think....gotta count the pills

Thanks everyone for all your valuable info. 

Just had Casie's repeat urine done, and she is clear of crystals.  She can now go off the canned food, and back onto a regular diet.  I am searching high and low for a good food for them, as I thought Canidae was a good food, and now I dont want to feed her that.

Cher goes for her repeat urine next week.

Cher had her urine done today, and it came back that she is WORSE off than when she was tested previous.  Apparently, the crystals are gone, but there is a massive bladder infection. 

She is now on Royal Canin Urinary SO instead of the s/d. 

She is also in heat right now, could this affect the tests?  The vet kinda gave me the impression that it could, but unlikely.