Hi everyone, we are hoping to breed a litter from our bitch and have been looking at the Kennel club website to see what I need to do to register the litter when (and if) it arrives.
Do I have to have a kennel name as I won't be likely to be breeding again and it seems a lot of money plus paying a fee yearly to keep it? If I don't though will the Puppies not be able to have a pre-fix to their names?

Also how do they know who the sire is? I have his registration number etc but surely anyone could put anything in that box if they wanted to make out the pups were by a particular dog or bitch for that matter?

Sorry if I am being extremely dim but this is all very new to me and I am tryig to be as prepared as possible!

Thanks for any help.

normally when you have the mating a form is filled in by the stud owner which you then send to the kennel club when you register the litter (if i remember correctly)

No you dont need a kennel 'affix' name, you just have to give your pups names to register them or the kennel club can choose them for you.

> Do I have to have a kennel name as I won't be likely to be breeding again and it seems a lot of money plus paying a fee yearly to keep it? If I don't though will the Puppies not be able to have a pre-fix to their names?
>
> Also how do they know who the sire is? I have his registration number etc but surely anyone could put anything in that box if they wanted to make out the pups were by a particular dog or bitch for that matter?
>

The form on which you register a litter has a part fro the stud dog owner to sign confirming the mating.  The sires details and registration number have to be filled in which the Kennel club can marry up with his and your bitches records to create the registrations for your pups.

Your correct unless you first pay for and then maintain a Kennel name you won't be able to use one to register your puppies.

I would advise you to read the third post on the breeding board Should I breed from my pet bitch?  If you are not planning on founding a breeding line then it may not really be worth the cost and responsibility of breeding a litter at all. 

By the time you have hip scored (could cost £200) eye tested (another £30?), and done any other tests the breed may need, paid  stud fee whcih coudl easily be the price of a puppy, then bought equipment, puppy pens, bedding heat lamps/pads, not to mention food for the bitch.  Then the time to rear a litter, which may not all be found homes by 8 weeks (a Friend recently still had two pups at 18 weeks).  The worry of finding good homes, and then the possibility of having to take back a possibly delinquent former pup when it is least convenient sometimes years later.

It will be a lot cheaper and less work, worry etc to buy a puppy from a good breeder and let them have the worry. :D

If your pleased with your won bitch then going back to her breeder or to the owner of her sire to find a pup from one of her close relatives (sister/brother/Mum/Dad) would be a better bet than mating your bitch to dog whose background you will inevitable not know well and not be in a position to predict what the pups will be like.

Also how do they know who the sire is? I have his registration number etc but surely anyone could put anything in that box if they wanted to make out the pups were by a particular dog or bitch for that matter?



All adult dogs as pups are registered by the KC firstly with the breeders name, address and details and each dog has their own unique registration number, once sold the transfer of ownership re-registers the pup/dog under the new owners details still with the same unique number. It is only known by the breeder, the owner and the KC, so no-one other than that would know your Sire's details unless you should show others.

So unless for some reason you are worried about the breeder no-one can use your Sire's or bitches registration number other than you.

Thank you for replies. I think I am a bit clearer now. It would seem if I want to use a specific name/word for each pup it has to be a kennel name and registered as such.
I have read that thread and many others, we have thought long and hard about this but we have decided for strong personal reasons that it is something we want to do and certainly not as a money making exercise. If the pups won't sell we will keep them and will be prepared to have any back if necessary. The stud dog owner is a professional in a field which favours our breed and he already has clients that want pups.
Both dogs are already cleared for hips and eyes.
I have no worries about the integrity of the stud dog owner I just thought it seems a system open to abuse without much difficulty.

I do appreciate any help given and I do think people need to be aware of the possible problems.

Anyhow, the mating has taken place so it is in the lap of the gods now.......

Wow that didnt take you long to decide? If the pups dont sell you will keep them?  What if you have 12 + 

Sorry but I feel you have been a tad irresponsible.

sorry? decide what?
Why am I irresponsible? We have researched this since her last season in July last year. She only cycles every 9 months and I don't want a winter litter.
Why are people so judgemental????

and I did say we would keep any pups that don't sell and yes 12 or more if necessary though I have homes for at least 6

people are not judgemental, I am only commenting on what you have written, if you have researched this since last year then why are you asking on here about registering the litter, could you not have asked the stud dog owner.  Your puppies are not born yet so how can you say you have 6 homes?  You only have potential homes, those who express an interst in a litter are not necessarily the ones who buy.  Sorry I am the only one who feels like this but I still think you have been irresponsible.  You say you want to breed for personal reasons?  What about breeding to improve the breed like most responsible breeders do, sorry if you dont like what I have to say but my point might helpe someone else think before they breed.  Also you said you were hoping to breed not already had the mating. Is this post a wind up?

I think people are judgemental partly because it is human nature, and partyl because there are SO many dogs in rescue, being PTS each week, and so many crap dogs being bred, that don't even look like the breed they are meant to be. Also, if you look in the General forum at the topic on merle genes, you'll see that breeding without enough knowledge can easily lead to birth defects and deformaties.

The mere comment that you would keep 12 pups if you had to alone is enough to make me think you are irresponsible. Anyone with any sense at all would know that it would be impossible, even with the best intentions in the world to rear that many pups successfully. It simply isn't doable. The question I think you need ot ask yourself is are you prepared to have a large number of pups put to sleep if they are not homed, just so you can get your one puppy?

Dizzy

Try not to take some of the responses to heart.  They are trying to warn against people breeding irresponsibly.  Perhaps rather than being quite so harsh constructive advice would be a better way.  Telling you about things to look for in potentail owners , advising you to place breeding restrictions on the pups and ensuring that you enter into a contract would perhaps have been a start.  If everyone went to the stud dog owner when they wanted to ask a question there would be little need for this topic of breeding.

I see from a previous post that you have recently mated your bitch - good luck - I would suggest that you make contact with her breeder, If you haven't already, and get as much advice as you can.  Carry on posting on Champdogs as well - there are plenty of people on the board who will be ready to offer you help., not one of these people were born as breeders, they all had to start somewhere.

Constructive advice has been repeated over and over on this forum and still people ignore it.

I would be very interested to know what health tests have been carried out on Sire and Dam?

The username doesn't help - those of us who remember the original 'dizzy' - the one who took her dog to BoB at Crufts - will have a lot of problems!

Ah I see you have already mated your bitch.  Did the stud dog owner not sign the registration form at the time you paid the stud fee?

Please do endorse the puppies registrations (most responsible breeders do this) to prevent the new owners registering puppies themselves.  This is the only way you have of protecting the breed, and ensuring that new owners have considered everything in responsible breeding, and had the health tests done.

Of course it won't stop them breeding unregistered litters.

You will need a contract to show that the endorsements have been explained, and a signature to show the owners acceptance.

There are samples of contacts CD members use on a thread here: http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/topic_show.pl?pid=888347;hl=contracts#pid888347

Also this thread re endosements, and the issues to consider: http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/topic_show.pl?pid=890029;hl=contracts#pid890029

This thread shows just oen example of how thigns cna go worng for a Novice breeder (any breeder really): http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/topic_show.pl?pid=887789;hl=contracts#pid887789

Well I feel I need to defend myself a little but then probably slip quietly away. I did expect this but still feel hurt by some of the remarks.
I realise some of you are trying hard to help and for that I am grateful, I am also pleased that people are vigilant about preventing unwanted pups.
As someone said everyone that breeds has to start somewhere, I was hoping for some good advice on here.
I stand by what I said about keeping them if necessary though I really doubt there will be 12 without homes. Our breed is not very common and I believe there is demand for pups, the stud dog owner, as I already said, works in a field where this breed is preferred and has people asking for pups, the breeder I got my bitch from has people asking her for more pups and she isn't planning to breed anymore at the moment.
I have been in touch with the 2 bigger breeders who regularly win Crufts for their advice on a suitable stud dog. They have all warned me it will be hard work....I am prepared for that. We have our own land and buildings so plenty of space for growing pups.
I had looked at the KC website prior to mating her but not in detail re forms etc, I did that yesterday post mating, hence my question.
The stud dog is young and hasn't sired a litter before but has proved himself in the working field also has an excellent pedigree to compliment our bitch. The owner didn't give me a form but gave me all his registration numbers. I have the form now and will get a signature once I know whether she is in Pup.
I don't know why this would be a wind up, I initially said I was hoping for a litter not that I was thinking about it. What I implied was she has been mated and now we are waiting to see. I know the written word is easily misconstrued.
I am not sure what endorsing the registration means but I will find out and I intend to try to breed a litter responsibly. I intended to have contracts anyway and have already looked at examples on here. I am having trouble with my keyboard as I thought I had said that!
Thankyou to anyone who has written anything constructive, I will kep lurking and hope to get the info I lack from here or other places.
All the best to you all and your dogs and pups.
BTW, I have no idea who the other dizzy was but may change my name!

All breeders have to start somewhere, but the basics are normally researched long before a bitch is mated. 

This includes understanding the UK registration system, general and breed specific health screening schemes etc.

Responsible breeding usually involves someone studying, showing and/or working their breed for some time (so they would be familiar with kennel club paperwork). You will have had her papers out to enter your first shows, had to take them along when having her hip scored and eye tested etc.

Every registration certificate has sections which will have information if used, endorsements health testing, DNA testing etc. 

When taking a bitch for mating you would have had to check her papers to see she is not endorsed, checked her parents hip scores and eye test results? had her transfered into your name at some point, signed a contract with her breeder etc.

As you have come on the board asking some very basic questions, as it turns out, AFTER mating your bitch it is fair for people to read into that, that little background research and thought has really gone into this important step. 

Why are you breeding if you only aim to do so once?  Do you not intend to keep a bitch pup to show and/or work, and of course would you not then want to breed another generation?  If not as said before why bother to breed at all if it is not to be a serious endeavour.  After all you will be committed to these pups for probably up to the next 15 years.

considering this is your first litter i think you have,nt done bad in trying to think ahead sounds to me as though your intentions are good and all your asking is advice so take on board what everyone has said  and do the best you can with your bitch and pups in mind obviously you have thought about the responsibility of having a litter and the very hard work that comes with it. It can be a bit daunting for first time with the paper work thats needed Carry on asking questions and read up plenty  if you are prepared and ready you will come out fine We all had to start at the beginning i think members just worry because there are such a lot of (come day go day) people who just go into having a litter blind and so many unwanted puppies
I,m sure you,ll manage ok

Dizzy

I think what Brainless has said here, sums up why folks have made comments that have upset you.

> As you have come on the board asking some very basic questions, as it turns out, AFTER mating your bitch it is fair for people to read into that, that little background research and thought has really gone into this important step.

Not meaning to upset you - I have never bred a litter, but could have answered the basic questions you were asking, and tbh, even more surprising to me was that the stud dog owner did know what to do and go through it with you.  In the case of an inexperienced breeder (and everyone has to start somewhere), then (apart from having a mentor), I would also think having an experienced stud owner who can  help you through this too would be important. And again, one worries what research has been done if you know nothing about endorsing?

That said, clearly your intentions are to do this well and you are probably now realising there is so much more to this than you thought in spite of your research  The deed is now done, so please, put aside any hurt feelings and stay and ask anything you need to know.  There is a wealth of knowledge on this board that you will find invaluable.

Dizzy, no offence intended, but if you were unaware about endorsements have you checked that your bitch's registration (or the stud dog's) isn't endorsed?

My main concerns about posts like this is the idea so many people have that they "research" for around 6 months and think that is sufficient. It may be long enough to decide whether to have a litter, but what about research into the chosen breed; finding out about pedigrees and how to read them properly to see the good and bad points of the dogs in the past (and present); learning properly about the health issues in the breed; genetics - all that takes much longer and far too many seem to rely on a stud owner saying the pedigrees are fine and just going ahead without really knowing that for themselves.

I am planning a litter for the middle of the year, my girls blood has been sent off to the AHT to be tested and aslong as it comes back clear i will go ahead, i also have her booked in to have her eyes tested as her certificate runs out after she is due to be mated (i have them tested every year) so will get it done early this time, i spent the last 2 years researching her pedigree and picked out about 4-5 males that would help improve my lines, now she is fully mature i looked at what i wanted to improve on her and picked the male that i think will be best for her, have spoke in dept to the stud dog owner and have everything in place as long as all her tests are clear.
A friend of mine done the same last year done everything right and put everything in to breeding a good litter and ended up losing all 6 pups and almost her girl, alot can and does go wrong with breeding so its something you have to be prepared for.
Im not going to lecture you on breeding as im relativly new to it myself and you have already done the mating but please make sure you do all the relevant health tests, its the only way to know the pups you have bred are healthy (its not as simple as a vet checking them over) Good luck i hope it all goes well for your girl.

> even more surprising to me was that the stud dog owner did know what to do and go through it with you

Sorry, that should have read.....

even more surprising to me was that the stud dog owner didn't know what to do and go through it with you

I'm surprised that the sires owner didn't provide you with signed paperwork at the time of mating, unless you are not paying for the stud until pups have been produced? Of course you can register on line so don't need it as such these days.

Please put restrictions on especially if it's a rarer breed.

Only affix/Kennel name holders and I think maybe Accredited breeders are able to register litters on-line.

i dont supply the signed paperwork at time of mating. usuallyget around to doing it after the litter born!!!

In Pomeranian's as it's a lot cheaper than the Spanish we pay the stud fee there and then at the mating and the signed papers are given straight away.  With my Spanish the owners of the bitch don't get the signed papers until monies have been paid in full.

Dizzy,

I would recommend that you buy yourself 'The Book of the bitch', read it and re-read it again, it is a bible to a lot of breeders and with many years of experience breeders still use it. Ask questions and be prepared for a lot of hard work and hopefully not heartbreak.
I can understand why you think you are being critisized but as you should appreciate the reason you gave aren't the reasons that most people breed a litter for.
Please check your bitches registration form to make sure she isn't endorsed, it will say next to endorsements (R-progeny not eligable for registration) if she has this on her registration form you will not be able to register the pups with the KC unless your bitches breeder lifts the endorsement.
You will nedd to purchase quite a lot of equiptment for your bitch and the pups, keep an eye on here on the bring and buy and also certain auction sites.
I wish you, the bitch and her pups well and hope that everything goes well with them.