Hi all, have been reading this forum for a few weeks now, and have finally registered....
I have bred my 2 Toy breed (name removed, TOS) for the 2nd time(my mother was around for the first time) and i am geting a little concerned, i have split their day time runs and beds over night so they are not together, but one is becoming very jelous of the other been around me, she is growling constantly.... they are on their 54 day and from the moment they both get up she growls when the other comes close, is this normal... she did not do it last year... is it the start of labour, tellling the other to go away... if it is labour is it too early and will have more complications. the vet says it should be fine... but im worried as they werent like this b4... she is very jumpy, cant sit still but she doens have contractions. and is still eating a little.. her temp has been up, down,up for a week.... am i been to paranoid and just live with the noise until it happens....

Are they both in whelp?  Or is it just the one that is growling that is in whlep? I'm reading that they are both in whelp they are on their 54 day but this may be a typo error. :-) Are they the same age too?

Actaully this can happen quite frequently where bitches can get along throughout each others pregnancies and then it just changes one year, one may become more or an Alpha, or become jealous even to the degree where one bitch may even kill the others pups.

So you are doing the right thing in keeping them seperate, if your bitch is growling she is definitely wishing your other dog out of her sight, she may possibly see her as a threat, so make sure that you continue to keep them seperate for now. And just see how things go afterwards.

Early whelping is possible, and on the air of caution perhaps you should take your girl for a vet check, she may even have a problem which may also cause her to want your other bitch to leave her alone,  so get her down to your vets to check this out, the fact that she is jumpy and can't sit still is a little worrying so please take her for a check up. :-)

I took it that they own dog and bitch but I may be wrong??

I was reading as the 2 are the parents of the litter. In other words, mum and dad. If this is the case then mum knows what is happening and doesn't want dad near her at all. If I've misread it then I'm sorry ;-) Still, I think that mum has decided that she doesn't want the other dog around. This is normal. She is protecting the nest and should be allowed to be at peace. 54 days is a tad too early for labour, but she could be getting ready. Some bitches start nesting early, whereas some will wait until they are actually in labour. If she is fine in herself I wouldn't be overly worried, just let her have time to herself.

Of course, dog and bitch, that makes much more sense, I guess because 'the other' was used instead of 'he' though why I presumed a bitch????

Blonde moment. (I can say that being a blonde :-D )

Apologies ratty6666, please ignore my previous post, your post makes perfect sense reading it in a new light. :-)

LOL Carrington, I thought the same as you:-D

hi, sorry i didnt explain myself properly....
i have 2 girls, not sisters but have been brought up like sisters since7 weeks old. one(lady) is as one of you said very alpha, and very protective and more forward, the other ( channel) is very reserved and shy....
On monday i started to seperate them on a night in different rooms, lady is very noisy, doesnt want to be without the other, channel isnt bothered... but on a day i seperated in the garden with a fence down the middle, but they bust a gut to be with each other and have broken it every day....
yet when i let them be together and around me, lady growls(not a vicous kind, but stil noisy)at channel if she comes near me. lady stnds by my feet and wont let the other near. why is this, she never did it before.
i rang the vet just make sure all ok, and he said it would be fine shes just feeling protective and when she has the pups shell move the feelings to them, so to keep them seperate,
my worry is now if they are jumping a metr fence to be together do i just let them be together untill i see they dont want to be . ie when pups are here...
iv taken temps for days now and they go between 38.8 and 37.1, today they are just 37.8, lady is scratching bed but no other signs... both are producing milk....

any advice grately received.
Thanks

In the wild only the Alpha bitch would breed.  In a domestic situation the very fact of having pups raises a bitches status, and often I find after the litter they need to be put back in their place so to speak as they can become a little oppinionated and challenging with the other dogs (all the extra attention raises their sense of importance two).

I cannot understand why on earth you would have two litters deliberately together, twice?  I have had two litters close together once due to circumstances that made it necessary, but it was such hard work.

I never split my girls up though except when they actually had the pups, and even then they would meet when not with the pups.

If one of mine was acting possessive of me and not allowing the other to approach for petting then that one would be sent out the room, as it is me who decides who gets petted who goes where and has what.

It certainly has been known for one bitch to kill another bitches pups out of jealousy, though (I have not known it in my breed and once pups eyes are open they are with all the other dogs, with Mum deciding how much access the others have to them.

If your girls are the same/close in age as they reach social maturity deciding who is higher ranking would likely have become an issue anyway, and having puppies with all the hormones and the natural feeling in each that they should assert themselves over  the other is heightened.

thank you for you comment, i would like to add that they are both in season at the same time, and last year it was no problem at all.
my mum doesnt work so she was there in the day and i am there at night.
Today i have left them together as i do not want them to hurt themselves trying to be close to each other, and i have been pushing lady away from us when she growls at me petting channel.
last yr when they had pups, the mum of each litter just did nto allow the other to see her  pups until they were about 4 weeks.
I dont think either would kill the others pups, i was more worried about her hurting herself been so excited.
i said before shes jumpy what i ment was she wont sit stil for a minute...
im soo excited as i didnt see the birth of lady last year she did it all on her own and had 3 healthy pups, channell had 6 and all were healthy and ll in goods homes. the vet was very impressed with that been their first litter.
thanks again for all your advice

Ratty

I'm getting very concerned about all of this.   You've just said

'i didnt see the birth of lady last year she did it all on her own'

I'm sure you're more aware this time of everything that can go wrong!   Please please stay with your bitches all the time - you shouldn't leave them at all when their temperature goes down.   

Like Brainless, I wonder why on earth you have two litters at the same time.    I guess you didn't keep any of the pups last year, and wonder if you're going to keep any of these?

Jo

im sorry if how i explain thing i dont make myself clear, but please dont get anoyed with my, im new to this msging....

my mother was with her, not i.... thats what i ment by i missed it.....

im still grateful for any advice, but if you do not understand anything please just ask before ripping me and how i do things.

i dont see any problems with having litters at the same time. it was not such hard work as you think....

and i didnt keep any last year as there are that many peopl in spain waiting of rmy pup as there does nto seem tobe many (breed name removed, TOS) here, they have the maltese. i also have 4 people waiting from last year for one of these, but i would like to keep 1 of these as i regreted not keeping my favorite last year. and i think i will get both bitches spayed after this litter.

thanks

I think you should read the comparison of the types of breeders here: http://www.dogplay.com/GettingDog/breedercomparison.htm

The purpose of breeding should be to maintain and improve a breed (of course a waiting list for puppies is essential for the surplus).

This link may make you consider the implications of a more casual approach to breeding http://www.nopuppymillscanada.ca/byb.htm

am i mis understanding your post here, do you think i am back yard breeder.....

i thought by reading past posts, that people on here was helping people become more knowledgable....

i obviously got it worng and appologise for the intrusion i will delete my profile and go back to learning through experaince instead of asking others for advise they have already accumulated.

thanks for the others that do post helpful notes, please carry on im sure you do put other breeders minds at rest...

Only giving advice re the situation as you describe it.

Your post comes across as though you have very limited knoweledge of your breed and breeding in general, yet you have already bred two litter? and are about to breed two more.

Your motivation only you can know, but the links were given to provide food for thought.

ratty6666. Please do not be offended when people post their honest opinions here. I am fairly new and do find the posting style ont his boar drather to thepoint, but have grown to appreciate it.

I joined this site as I was breeding my first litter. I didn't clas myself as a back yard breeder (god forbid!) and had doen proper health checks, chosen stud dog carefully with the help of someone with more experience in the breed than me, stayed at home with the pups, had a waiting list, carefull selected new owners etc etc.

I still don't think I was ever a back yard breeder, but there were and are certainly things I could have done better, such as showing my girl (although she has worked) and learning more about the breed first.

We didnt' keep a pup from our first litter, as after mating we discovered we would be moving home to another part of the country. (my husband is in the army, so we have no choice in that). I deeply regret not keeping one now, partly as I have decided not to breed from my girl again next year and keep one as planned. I may breed from her again in the future, but it will be after showing her.

I always knew I loved and cared for my breed, but this site has made me have a good look at myself. I don't always agree with everything everyone says, and i do sometimes think some people get an over-idealistic and non practical view, btu I have learned an awful lot.

i have had my breed for a full 30 years, and know enough.....

i just wanted  alittle advice as i have not seen the tempermant change before...
i know better for next time....
my mum was there last time, and is there now but i wanted to be more prepared for if it happens when i am there.

i am responsable breeder although new to it... you have to start somewhere...
i look after the new owners when they take them home...i pay to have them spayed.... i have the dogs back when the owners go away. i give the proceeds after expenses to a charity for spaying strays here. you dont know me and i am quite shocked at your initial comments...

you shouldnt just assume we are all bad...

thank you jackson....

i dont quiet understand why you have to show the dog, just to prove it is of good standard. my girls do have pedigrees but it is very difficult for me been in english to show at spanish dog shows.... we go to all the english ones but there mainly fun based.....

i hope you have better advice in future than i received. i have to go home now as my mum has called.... today may be the day...

As already said we can only go by what you post and your posts gave rise to quite a bit of concern.  Bitches can and do die in whelp, and whelping difficulties are especially common in toy breeds.

Your supporting welfare charities is to be commended, as well as the ongoing support for the puppy owners.

As to why show, it is the way to compare the dogs to the breed standard, as it is very hard for an owner to be entirely objective about the quality of their dog.

if we do not strictly select the best and most typical dogs to breed from eventually you will have dog that don't resemble their breed in looks, character or health.

This is seen frequently here and in the USA.  We see Yorkshire Terriers who are the size of cairn terriers with the wrong colour coats and incorrect ears etc.  you get Cavalier King Charles (a toy breed) as big as cocker Spaniels.

Even when an owner only wants a companion when they choose a pure bred they want that dog to be typical of its breed as it is those traits that they chose the breed for.

That is why the primary reason for anyone breeding responsibly is to maintain/improve the breed with the breeding choices you make as well as being responsible lifelong for the pups and support their owners.

> my mum was there last time, and is there now but i wanted to be more prepared for if it happens when i am there.
>
> i am responsable breeder although new to it... you have to start somewhere...
>

I wouldn't have let my mother whelp one of my bitches, I always had time off work to fit in flexibly with when the litter was due & never left them alone with the bitch at any time(I was in partnership in one breed with a co owner-but we were both present at the whelping in order to ensure we had enough hands if needed)

Yes everyone does have to start somewhere but if you have two litters together neither gets your full attention

> i have had my breed for a full 30 years, and know enough

I have had GSDs since 1958, but I still can learn about them, my next GSD will be a working bred German import-I've never had a working bred GSD before so I will be learning when I get him(& before as the breeder is a close friend of mine who lives in Germany)

I have had BC's for over 30 years, but now own my first KC only registered dog & bitch(Full brother & sister)& they are a lot different from my previous working bred ISDS BC's so I am learning with them too & the bitch might be the mother of my 1st litter of BC's depending on her final two clinical tests.

You can never know enough about dogs & when writing of quality & type, unless you have actively compared your bitches to the breed standard(& the only way you can do that is to show them for non working breeds)you cannot state that they are of the highest standard.

Bitches can change temperament when the have puppies because it does tend to be hormonal in bitches, the same applies when they are in season & if they have phantoms, I learnt this long before I bred a litter. The change can be temporary if you are lucky & permanent if you are not.

My Beardies were great mothers & allowed the other dogs to see them from day one, my GSDs on the other hand never let other dogs within viewing distance under after 3 weeks old, when they were well on the way to being weaned. What my BC bitch will be like is anyone guess, however as I only have her & 4 dogs I don't run the risk of her having problems with them afterwards

For Brainless

> The purpose of breeding should be to maintain and improve a breed (of course a waiting list for puppies is essential for the surplus).

I don't understand why you are giving advice with regard to having a waiting list for surplus puppies when you have critisised Hayley123 on NON KC registered 3/4th April for not including 'advertising'.

Twice you have stated that part of the cost of rearing your puppies included 'Advertising'??? Why would you need to pay for advertising costs for surplus puppies if you have taken your own advice.

Be fair. As a moderator you should know better than to take someone to task for something that you don't do yourself.

It is rare for nature to be obliging in producing the number of dogs and bitches you wish, and of course to build a waiting list advertising would come into the equation, be that breed club publicatiuons/club puppy lists, internet, or after the birth the Kennel club lists, canine publications, or other media.

I agree, not arguing the point. But advertising also covers advertising puppies that you may have a surpus for (things do happen which will prevent a puppy going to a planned home) and of course pre advertising your forth coming planned litters really amounts to just the same thing. You are advertising puppies for sale either pre or post birth.

Yep that is what I said, you can't compile a waiting list if no-one knows you plan to breed, though if your well known in a breed people assume you will be breeding at some point or regularly enough to approach you to go on a long term waiting list. :D

Showing/working is a major form of advertising of course too, as if your dogs do well you hope to attract people who will show/work potential/future offspring.

The latter form of advertising is what established breeders mean by not having to advertise, but of course their stocks achievements are their advert.

Most breeders rely on a combination of some or all of these or other forms of advertising, to reach the desired kinds of homes for their pups.