>unfortunately when pet owners try using his same methods the results could well be catastrophic for all conerned - not least the dogs!

Sadly I can vouch for that. This week at work we put to sleep a young dog whose owners were fans of CM and had followed his methods with their rescue dog. :-( Such a waste.

I have seen loads of CMs shows and can honestly say never seen him use any prong collars.
There are alo ample warnings for people not to try things he does on the show, it seems to me his personality is what irritates folk here.

Karen

You shouldn't have to look too closely - they may initially appear to be check chains (themselves not the tool of choice for many caring trainers and owners) but are in fact pronged.   I can assure you has used them - with amazing regularity

>it seems to me his personality is what irritates folk here

No - its his methods which irritate me :)  Further still his devotees as it happens, who seem to genuinely believe this creep can work miracles .... weird!

Dreadful Jan :( :( :(  

Sadly I can vouch for that. This week at work we put to sleep a young dog whose owners were fans of CM and had followed his methods with their rescue dog.  Such a waste.

That is sad  - these tv programmes have a lot to answer for. Can you give any more detail Jan do you mind? did they use the very physical side of things CM shows?

Wow look at this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHaEzGz0HeE&feature=related contrasted with the first half of this slide show http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXR_SW_soII

I haven't got a lot of info to give, and I don't want to say anything that might identify them - not that they come on here (I don't think anyway!) because it would be too hurtful.

Those poor horses..............it's shocking treatment, cruelty beyond :(

I'm an avid Cesar Millan watcher - yes he does use prong collars, but he always uses whichever collar the dogs owner does and in a lot of cases the owner has a prong collar. I don't see why he doesn't insist on a standard collar as he personally wouldn't choose the prong collar.

Didnt like either of the horse vids. I think the 'painless' one leaves a lot to wonder at, with how the horse learns the ways shown. And I hated seeing the horse on its back. Sitting like a dog was bad enough.

I thought the 'painless' horse vid was amazing :) I don't know much about horses, but I thought they looked relaxed, happy and peacefull in the 'painless' vid and appeared to be enjoying it.

My pup (a breed not renound for obiedence) has learnt some cute tricks. One of his favorites, since he was 4 months old, is to shut any door or draw on command, nothing as spectacular or majestic as the horses, and I expect many of you will have taught your dogs some really amazing things, without the need to inflict pain or use force. Brutality, force and harsh restraints are not the only ways to train any animal, patience, kindness and finding the individuals motivation are a lot better methods and the animal actually enjoys doing it.

Poloaussie says" I have seen loads of CMs shows and can honestly say never seen him use any prong collars.
There are alo ample warnings for people not to try things he does on the show, it seems to me his personality is what irritates folk here"

Actually the warnings were only put on recently due to people trying to sue after following what he did.

Then I must only have seen recent shows, and must speak as I find.
Karen :)

the 'painless' horse vid did show a whip at least twice and i expect they were used for the 'initial' training too

I thought it was a target stick as used in conjunction with the clicker, where the dog is taught to touch the target stick to get complex behaviours such as in canine freestyle.

I'd like you see what training methods he uses to acheive these movements, and how he gets the horse to bend at the poll, without bit or bridle. In one scene the horse has ears back and looks anything but relaxed, more as if it is expecting something unplesant.

Yeah, no i do realise that dogs have no concept of death and can't be taught 'why' - but thats not what i meant.  I'm just saying how else would you teach a dog that a rattle snake was massively dangerous and something to NEVER be sniffed?

The collars i've felt were not like an electric shock, they were just like one of those joke hand shakers which give someone a shock by buzzing - like a mobile phone on vibrate.  I can't see hte harm in one of those personally.
I agree something that gives an animal an extreme shock should never be used by joe public.

The stick/whip is not used as a whip - its used as an extension of the arm and an aid - ie, not to whip the horse.

The guy uses NO spurs, and NO bits - something which many people who claim to be 'kind' to horses still use.  The bit is something totally pointless and merely gives the human the impression of control.

His methods are patience and unfortunately natural skill - which not everybody is blessed with - and something which most horse owners don't have becuase they want to take their horse to a horse show and win rosettes or the like.  Or they want to take it out hunting or doing whatever it is they want to do.   Many 'traditional' horsemen and women won't go the  natural path because it means doing more what the horse wants/needs and less about the humans wants AND it involves a lot more time and keeping the horses in a natural environment (never stabled and certainly never shod).   To go natural also means that the traditional horseperson (something I used to be since its the way I was introduced to horses) has to accept that they might have been inadvertantly cruel to a horse in the past through methods they thought were kind/normal/acceptable. 

Of course there are people like nevzorov who have done what he's done for ages - but we just dont' hear about it in the same way.  The natural way does'nt make money (wel, unless you're a showman like pat parelli), and its not about making money, its about communicating with horses.   I say hats off to Nevzorov for what he does and trying to highlight the cruelty that goes on in mainstream horse-sports and we don't even notice that it is cruel.

... bit of a rant since its something i'm passionate about!

I'd also like to add that all horses are capable of those movements at liberty - watch any horses playing in a field and you'll see all those movements.  Which all disappear if you start putting bits and saddles on their backs, they just clam up.   Nothing more heavenly than watching a herd of horses playing with each other and showing off.

The video shows the result, what I would like to see is a young, totally 'unbroken' and unschooled horse being trained in this way, from begining to the end result. The video shows the horse in an indoor school, no chance of the horse moving away from this enviroment. (Unless there are others showing the horse being ridden out in fields or on the road and in the company of others). Would legs and a neck rein control the horse safely in an outside enviroment? Not putting shoes on a horse that does a fair bit of roadwork is likely to wear the foot and do damage in some horses that have naturally poor hooves. They are also used to help cure or improve hoof problems, or studs are put in to help with grip. Horses are used in sports, be that mounted games, showjumping, eventing....horses love to work, leaving them in a field does very little for them. Some horses need to be stabled in the winter regardless of if they are worked or not, same goes for some that are prone to weight gain and the condition lamenitus so need stabling during the spring grass time.

.  The bit is something totally pointless and merely gives the human the impression of control. A bit is only as cruel as the hands controling it. It gives a little more than an impression of control, although a bitless bridle can have a good effect on some. Eddie machen always used a bitless when he was showjumping, and he was the quietest, most natural rider I ever saw, very kind on his horse in the ring and outside of it.

What do you consider is the 'natural' way, and what work would the horse do, from hack to eventer, with this natural way?

The first video link is the sort of thing which I find always impresses peopel who aren't that knowledgable about horses, but really isn't that hard to achieve if you have the time or inclination to do it. The bit when riding the horse is an aid. You don't use it to pull your horses head in and make it flex at the poll, your legs, correctly applied, are what get that 'outline'. A bit is also only as severe as the person whose hands the reins are in.

Barleymmon, as you mention Parelli, I will give my opinion of it. I have veen to several parelli demos and know a few people who practice it and have attanined their 'levels'. All the horses I have seen at demos look massively submissive and almost 'switched off' which is not how I would like to see my horses behaving. I have seen parelli practiced badly and having negative affects on horses who's owners have seen the promotional DVD's, bought the starter pack, and goen alone, because parelli don't offer training courses with an instructor, just a home study course. I have seen a well known event rider who supports parelli with his horses mouth bleeding round Burghley horse trials, as he had yanked on the bit so hard. In my opinion, Parelli is a load of marketing nonsense, and nothing more. They tell you not to pat your horse, as horses don't pat each other, well, horses don't ride each other either, but they're not suggesting we don't do that, are they?

My horse is not stupid, he knows I am not a horse. He behaves like a horse, with allt hat entails, and I wouldn't have it any other way, he is rather a character. I ride him with a bit in his mouth, he trusts me, and if he didn't want me on his back, he would easily have me off, I have seen him do it to others he doesn't want riding him.

he bit when riding the horse is an aid. You don't use it to pull your horses head in and make it flex at the poll, your legs, correctly applied, are what get that 'outline'. A bit is also only as severe as the person whose hands the reins are in.

Yes, the bit is not used to pull the head in, its a mixture of natural aids (legs) and the hands (natural) and the bit. The type of bit and hands helpful to stop the horse going through the bit and leaning on the forehand. A correctly 'mouthed' horse will respond well to hands.
I'v never heard of the Parelli way, how do they school a young, untouched horse this way? Are headcollers ever used to lead? Are they ridden out like this, or is it just in enclosed school/menage? Was suprised to read they say you shouldn't pat your horse, then the video shows a horse on its back with the chap on top stroking it...a bit unnatural? It all sounds a bit odd to me :)

Parelli is just a training system. In very basic terms, you start using groundwork, using a 'horsemans halter' and a 'carrot stick'. You practice the 'seven games' and then eventually progress to riding your horse in the horsemans halter bareback, or with the rather expensive bareback pad Parelli market. It's very slightly like the way Monty Roberts, Kelly Marks etc do things, (which I approve of, BTW) although with far less common snese and respect for the horse and it's natural behaviour, and a lot of emphasis on marketing.

Cynical? Me?

Could we get this thread back on topic please - if you want to discuss methods of schooling horses, probably best to start a new thread on the Foo Board.

Thanks

Well, had a look at their site. Confused....you bet LOL. Seems a lot of things there are in use already...carrot stick = schooling whip.....bareback pad sounds so like the old type felt pads used many years ago, and in their range of tack...bits, bridles hackamore, reins.....didnt expect that.

Cynical- you.....I don't think so.

It all sounds so much like what the old horsemen knew, an affinity with your horse will get the best out of him, they knew how to handle many different horses, gently and carefully. Common sense and experience which is impossible to buy and is natural to some.

soz Jane, didnt see your post till I had posted!