Hello,

I wondered if anyone could please advise me on overshot jaws?  Is it ALWAYS heriditory, or could one appear from nowhere so to speak.  I have had 2 litters from my shepherd and in the last litter one of the pups had an overshot jaw.  I know the lines and don't know of any further back.  Could this just be a freak one-off, or should it put me off breeding from her again?

Many thanks.

Hi
How old are the puppies?
If they are only a few months old there is every chance  the pup is overshot because the jaws are not fully grown and developed .
Quite often the ugly duckling turns out to be the swan in the litter.
Don,t despair if they are only babies.
Sharon

Hi, thanks for the reply.  No, there are not babies - they are a year old.  The jaw is quite severely overshot, and one of the other pups from the same litter is overshot too, but only slightly.

Does this have to have come from my bitch?  Or is it safe to breed again?

I don't think the mode of inheritance is known, but inherited it almost certainly is.  So it is impossible to say if both parents contributed to the trait or one.  Pedigree investigation of previous offspring may help, but even a breeder/stud dog owner will not know how the mouths turned out on all their pups.

Obviously you should not use the same stud again, as that combination has produced problems, and also I wouldn't use a dog with a similar pedigree to the sire either.

Whether you decide to risk breeding from the bitch again depends on her quality, and what you know of her ancestry.

> Does this have to have come from my bitch?  Or is it safe to breed again?

No, it could come from the sire.  BUT - if the bitch were mine there'd have to be a mighty good reason for me to mate her to a different dog of different lines.  She'd have to have done some major winning in the ring or the working field and be a stunning example of her breed for me to risk it again.  As the problem is in not one, but two of her puppies that makes it even more of a risk IMO.  There really is no telling where it could have come from and it could well be coming from your bitch.

Sorry it's not more helpful.

Debs

I was going to make this her last litter anyway, but am unsure now.  She really enjoys motherhood and all her babies are stunning - I am in contact with nearly all of them.  The stud owner said it may have been a combination of the genes, and said that if I put her to another dog it might not happen.  I know the lady I got her from, and her dogs and their pups and there are no overshot jaws anywhere.  It is rather odd.  The litter in question was a week early - that wouldn't be it would it?

In GSDs it tends to be recessive & when traced far enough back, there will be overshot dogs(or producers of) on both sides of the pedigree. There are lines that do produce overshot mouths on a regular basis & these lines may well be behind the dogs but off the immediate pedigree. I have seen far more overshot mouths in non working/showing bred dogs. We see a lot of under & over shot mouths in GSD rescue & by far the majority(actually one dog in around 15 years was from a responsible breeder)are from what I would term"pet"lines or the English bloodlines(overshot mouths was a big problem in the 1960's & 1970's)

Hmm, well I don't know.  These lines are not pet lines.  The sire's history is all German, and they have not had any pups from him (in 6 years) with overshot jaws.

I will try with a different dog I think.  May have been a mix of the two, mightn't it.

The sire is an import or bred in the UK from imports ? & the bitches lines ?

They have overshot dogs in Germany, but they are not bred from(do not pass the Korung), but their siblings areif they have correct mouths

Imported.  No, the bitch is from English lines. 

I didn't mean they don't have overshot jaws in Germany - I was just answering your part about them being from 'English lines'.

Moonmaiden - you said "In GSDs it tends to be recessive & when traced far enough back, there will be overshot dogs(or producers of) on both sides of the pedigree" - sorry, did you mean that for pups to have overshot jaws, there would have to be the gene on BOTH sides?  So, in other words, putting her to a different sire may solve the problem? (unless he has it in his pedigree too).

Yes they need the genes from both sides, like many genetic conditions until they have a marker gene(s) that can be tested for(I don't suppose there's any research being done at present for this in GSDs or any other breeds)the best you can do is breed good mouth to good mouth, but I personally would not breed from a dog or bitch that produced overshot mouths, but then I am a purist & have never owned a GSD with English bloodlines

TBH badly overshot mouths are not that common in the dogs that are from German breeding.

It's up to you whether you breed from your bitch again, I would research the pedigrees as far back as possible. It's a pity there isn't a GSD website like the BC database Anadune(it shows all the possible genetic conditions & of course the DNA testing available shows the actual genetic make up of tested dogs)

That's very interesting.  I didn't realise that.  Seems weird that it's only happened with my bitch.  Obviously they wouldn't know about every pup he'd ever sired, but they have never heard of one or known of one or seen one that's overshot from him before.

Thanks for your help.

Overshot is a recessive gene, so both parents are carrying that gene. If you mate your bitch again to a dog that does not carry this fault then the pups will be fine, but a proportion will carry the gene. Mouth faults are regarded as so severe in GSDs that it is probably best not to breed again, after all someone breeding with this gene has passed it down. Sadly when faults turn up all too often people claim never to have seen it in thier lines, but it must be there.