Hi,

My litter is nearly 3 weeks old (not advertising as 1 left and might keep).  Just  thought this might helpe people who are thinking of having that 'one litter'.

I am on week 3 and absolutly worn out, there are two of us looking after this litter and we have been looking after them since day 1.  The whelping experience as always was stressful for me, 'will my bitch be ok, is she in any pain, will the puppies be born alive and on a regular basis'?? (they dont come at the same time). 

Just to give you an idea and this is my girls 3rd litter so I wouldnt say it was all new to me or her.  I have whelped other litters aswell as my own.

Anyway first 6 puppies born OK some were breach but thats the way it goes.  Anyway after waiting 2.5 hours between puppies I began to panic, I do know some bitches can go longer but I dont like to risk it.  Went to vets and 1 puppy born in vets, after the oxcitocin (sp) 2 more born at home.  9 in total, 1 more than what the scan said.

Well early on and also after several days with no sleep and me and my helper taking it in turn to watch mum and pups, keep them warm, feed mum, tend to other dogs, get some sleep ourselves we realised one puppy who was really small wasnt doing so well.  Mum kept pushing him away and he just wouldnt feed by himself, so I hand fed him every 2 hours and eventually he started with the 'cry'.

After several hours at the vets he was pts, poor thing.  I cried taking him to vets and cried all the way home.

Part and parcel of breeding? maybe! but this is no quick way to earn some money using your family pet.  Think long and hard before you breed, can you affford a c section?  This wee man wasnt a c section however he cost me hundreds as it was out of hours but that is what you have to budget for.  Are you prepared to loose your bitch and the puppies? 

Breeding is not a quick way to some cash, done properly it is damn hard work and you will be exhausted, more so than a regular job.  I have another 4 weeks to go and as this point I am saying never again. 

If you are not into this in a serious way and think 'oh maybe one litter wiull be good' - THINK AGAIN - you will have no life for 7 weeks, the early weeks you will have no sleep, you will be stressed worrying about the puppies and mum.  And finally.  If you havent got any puppies booked before breeding, then DONT DO IT!!!  You will have even more stress trying to find the right homes for them, and this is the most important bit and shouldnt be done lightly.

Just to summarise.......

Have you already go puppies booked?  If not DONT BREED!

Can you afford to take your bitch and pups to the vets and pay for any emergency treatment?  If not DONT BREED!

Have you carried out breed specific health testing?  If not DONT BREED!  If you dont know what this is DONT BREED!

Your litter will cost you alot of money to raise - can you afford the best and a poss C Section and expensive vet bills?  If not DONT BREED!

Can you rehome if a puppy doesnt work out ay any age?  If not DONT BREED.

Are you knowledgeable in your breed?  Do you know about breed specific health testing, the pedigree behind your bitch, faults, temperaments, etc etc etc this goes on.

All I am trying to say is that this is not something that should be taken lightly = THINK ABOUT IT!!!!

You would earn more on a regualr job than what you would breeding the 1 litter!

Also have you got endless time and patience to socialise the unsold pups,a s you could easily have several well past 8 weeks.

A good friend of mine finally homed the last of her pups at 18 weeks.  Reason, most of the litters born close to hers were predominantly the same sex (this is a numerically small breed so numbers of litters bred and numbers of potential owners limited).  Only half were homed at 8 weeks.

The pups that stayed longer went on to be lead trained, extensively socialised, had ben on car journeys, were used to poultry other animals traffic etc, of course they were fully vaccinated, well on the way to being housetrained.  A lot of work with one puppy let alone several.

Excellent one Brainless, yes anyone could have them months after, im so sad mine go out in the care before they go to new homes, thanks for your post!  Just proving there is so much to think about.

What a great post, i can only imagine the hard work/care that goes into the before and after of rearing a litter

Hayley

And, of course, there is the hearbreak.

A BREEDER'S TALE.

I love my little puppy, he makes my house a home,
He always is my best friend, I never feel alone.
He makes me smile, he makes me laugh, he fills my heart with love,
Did some breeder breed him? Was he sent from heaven above?
I've never been a breeder, or seen life through their eyes
I hold my little puppy, just sit and criticise.
I've never know their anguish, I've never felt their pain,
The caring of their charges, through snow or wind or rain.
I've never waited all night long for puppies to be born,
The stress and trepidation when they're still not there by dawn....
I've never felt the heartache of a little life in my hands,
A darling little puppy who weighs just 60 grams !!
Should you do this instead of that? Or just pray to God?
Alone you fight, and hope one day he'll grow into a dog.
Bring joy to another being and make a house a home.
You know it's all just up to you, you fight this fight alone.
Formula, bottle, heating pads you've got to get this right,
Two hourly feeds for this little mite throughout the day and night.
In your heart you know it, you'll surely lose the fight
To save this little baby, but God willing, you just might....
Day one he's in there fighting, you say a silent prayer,
Day two and three he's doing well, with lots of loving care
Day four and five - he's still alive your hopes soar to the heavens!
Day six he slips away again, dies in your hands day seven.

You take this little angel and bury him alone,
With aching heart and burning tears, (and an exhausted groan),
You ask yourself, Why do this? Why suffer all the pain?
But see the joy that puppies bring - it really self explains!
So, when you think of breeders and label them with "greed"
Think what they sometimes endure to fill anothers need
And when you buy a puppy, with pounds and pence you part.
You only pay with money........
We pay with our hearts.

The heartbreak is what all we breeders suffer at one time or another ,as I sit waiting on my girls giving birth it crosses my mind as I know the heartache and joy is about to arrive .I have lost one puppy years ago and have saved two .I think the joy has outweighed the heartache ,so far.

Yes and even if you have a long waiting list are they for the right colours in the right sexes. I am exhausted from 7 puppies now aged 9 weeks. I didn't have the right combinations!!! Brainless is right the socialisation gets harder and harder as they get older and even getting 7 puppies in from the garden is hell!!!
I know they will sell eventually but it is still hard work.

On the plus side I have changed my mind as to which ones to keep in the last week. I couldn't have done this if they were all gone.

I have seen pups advertised on a well known website and discovered the breeder only lives streets away from. On closer inspection i noticed she also had two other litters of different breeds on there including labradoodles.

I took the dogs for a walk passed the house and it was a tiny terrace so wondered how she coped but I suppose if people are willing to pay £1100 for a crossbreed its worth it :-(

pity all breeders aren't as conscientious as you foo foo.

With my last litter I had 8 girls and 1 boy never had that mix before so was worried as you I had a big waiting list ,had the right colours wrong sex for 2.Normally I have more wanting males but I had quite a few wanting girls .Surprisingly all were booked by 6 weeks.In my breed the colours are biggest problem ,my girls carry all 3 colours so it can be a problem.
Good luck with your litter .

PHEW!!!! that poem!!!

well my 3rd litter of tiny toy is 2 weeks on Monday and reading down the posts i am saying..yes..yes...yes...yes...
then i think add another question

CAN YOU BARE TO PART WITH THEM?...

I want to keep all of my litter 2 girls one boy...(no its not practical but i sooooo want too)

I found BEST HOMES for previous litters BUT i still worry about them..probably as much as i worry about my 22 year old son whom has left home!

My Family just cant understand my daily thoughts on .....how is toby cody etc doing....mmmhn!!!!

I still see and have meet ups with my 5 puppies and talk to 1 regularly on the phone!!!

Parting with them is the hardest part of breeding for me so you`re not alone.I wanted to keep the first born of my last litter but I went to see my doctor when the pups were 2 weeks old and was told I was facing a major op,my first thought was my beautiful puppy.With pressure from my family I realised I couldn`t give her the time and attention that I wanted to give her as I know my health is not great at the moment .I tried to find an excuse  to keep her every day ,it broke my heart parting with her but she has got a very special family and they know her history and that she is very special puppy.They keep touch with me which is lovely and they send photos regularly.

oh so true.....tiring is an understatement!! I thought I was going to have a breakdown the first three weeks, lack of sleep and improper diet (for me!) whilst looking after Mum and pups....not to be undertaken without a strong support network at home...

and the heartbreak of losing a little one - it still upsets my hubby now when he thinks of the girl we lost

but the joy of seeing pups going happily to their new homes, and the happiness of the new owners, that is special too

would I go through it all again?? Well I'm going to see how last year's litter developes and see about progressing "my line" from them if they are suitable, so I guess that's a maybe in about 3 years time  -  better start saving my pennies ;)

my 'favourite girl' has been chosen tonight by a vet.... I was hoping she might be the one left for me to keep - i will shed a tear when she goes but I know she is going to a fab home...   the puppy porridge stage has started, roll on the days of having my clothes covered in the stuff.  Well my girls daughter who has won 1st's at Crufts is in season soon but I am holding off until the end of the year as I need a well earned rest.

I agree, I just bred my first litter, only 2 but absolutely straight forward from birth to selling, both new homes fantastic (nb I sold both as wanted a girl and got boys!), mum was the best mum in the world - and it still exhausted me. Really made me realise how much hard work it must be if there are problems, or just a larger litter!!

> my 'favourite girl' has been chosen tonight by a vet.... I was hoping she might be the one left for me to keep

In response to FooFoo. Are you seriously considering letting someone else choose first? I'm keeping a bitch pup from my current litter. There is no way I'd give up the pup I choose to someone else! After all, to keep a bitch pup is why I planned this litter in the first place.
Good luck, and why not let the vet choose another pup?
Karen

I had my first litter, of 9, last year and liken it a bit to having a baby, in that everyone tells you how much hard work it is, how much of your time it will take up, how tired you will be etc but you never really realise just quite how much until you are actually doing it.

I was lucky, my bitch had a very easy whelping and I felt very confident about it all. Once the pups were all born, the whelping box cleaned out, pups back in and 'settled' with Mum for the night, it really started. I have never felt so sick with worry in my whole life, it was virtually unbearable. Far more worrying than bringing any of my three children home from the hospital, as I had no natural instinct to care for these pups like I did my children.

My friend also bred her first litter last year (her bitch is related to mine and our breeder has now retired). Two out of her 9 pups were still born. She did everything she could to revive them, but to no avail. She said it was heartbreaking, not least as they looked absolutely perfect, just not alive. She took them to the vets together and cried all the way there and back, and she says she still sheds a tear for them now, and the other pups are 6 months old. She also had one pup with an ectopic uretha, who she had to keep, as well as deciding to keep the pup she had intended to all along. Having the litter has COST her about £2000, plus what she lost not working for 10 weeks, then giving up her job as she had two puppies to care for and do everything with seperately. Her husband and older teenage daughter have asked her not to breed again, as they felt it was all consuming for her and they weren't happy about it. However, although she doesn't plan another litter until later this year, she already has lots of people asking to go on a waiting list, so may consider it.

>my 'favourite girl' has been chosen tonight by a vet.... I was hoping she might be the one left for me to keep

If you've bred to keep one - and lets face it that's the main reason for breeding for most of us here ;)  why are you letting the one you want to keep go to a vet??     Surely you want to keep the best one for yourself otherwise what's the point?  What difference does it make if it's a vet or joe public?    If it's a well bred even litter all the pups should be of good quality anyway ? 

No matter who chose one of mine, show judge or vet or JP, they'd all stand in line after me ;) chances are they may not want the one I'd choose anyway, but if they did, tough!

Always someone to put a downer on a positive post - YAWN!  This was a post about the hardship of breeding and trust someone to find fault with the first sentence.  Get over yourself.  Would love to get the true stats for those who say ' I only breed to keep one myself' what if the whole litter are not up to standard - would it be responsible to keep an inferior puppy back to breed from?  I was merley saying that the bitch who stole my heart was now chosen.  Did I say she was the best?  NO! 

Dill wind your neck back in.  Yes it is  very well bred litter - would you like to come and see my litter and see for yourself?  In traditionally docked breeds I have one left at just 4 weeks and 6 booked before dam was mated, that is more than I can say of people who have Champions coming out of their backsides, so yes the fact that a vet has chosen to come to me and travel 5 hours rather than chose a puppy on their doorstep is something to be proud of.

Can't understand why you think I'm trying to put a downer on you Foo foo.   Your vast breeding experience is not immediately obvious from your post and there are others who read the board who never post ;)   Maybe my post could have been better worded but then I'm not a writer, merely a poster like the others here, I was merely pointing out that no matter who the person buying a pup is, the breeder shouldn't feel obligated to part with a pup they so obviously wanted to keep ;)  Wasn't actually accusing you of anything

>Would love to get the true stats for those who say ' I only breed to keep one myself'

Add me to the stats, I see no point in breeding unless I want a pup, there are plenty of dogs and pups being bred and in rescue looking for homes.   Whether you believe me or not is up to you.

>Add me to the stats, I see no point in breeding unless I want a pup

And me.

there are plenty of dogs and pups being bred and in rescue looking for homes.   Whether you believe me or not is up to you.

I do believe you, but breeding responsibly is th ebest way to prevent dogs that end up in rescue. If responsible people don't breed, all that are left are the people who don't, and responsible people not breeding won't stop them sadly.

Me too.I keep one pup from every litter,it really upset me when I couldn`t keep one from my last litter due to me being ill and I am now having a brain op on the 21st so right decision made even if it brakes my heart thinking about her as she is exactly what I was hoping for in every way from this litter.Never done a repeat mating but will think about it .

There are perfectly legitimate reasons for breeding a litter if you are not keeping a pup if it furthers your breeding program, especially if the breed is numerically small.

if you can only keep a limited number of dogs you may wish to prove a bitch and wait to see the results of how pups turn out before you are in a position to keep a puppy.  To decide which direction you want to take your breding you will need to see what your bitches/dogs are producing to different bloodlines.  Just one litter from each bitch (which is all you might be able to keep) will not tell you about which traits she is producing, and which the stud.

These litters may allow you to include their offspring later in your breeding program.

At the moment I am contemplating keeping a second pup from my younger champion bitch as her daughter from her first litter has not turned out quite as hoped,a nd i don't want to put all my eggs in one basket.

This will mean when I come to breed from the daughter I won't be able to keep anything from her first litter as I will already have a half sister of hers (I hope).  On the other hand I do not want to waste the bloodline that I got, so will keep something from a later litter.

This will of course mean the pup I aim to keep this time will be of breeding age long before I can keep one of her pups, yet a bitch needs to start her breeding life before five years off age.

I wonder how many breeders who breed to keep something from each litter actually keep that pup for life?

I am sure I would be much more successful if I ran on the best pup from each litter and then if it didn't come up to scratch re-homed it, but I find myself unable to do so.

Of course sometimes you just don't have a pup to keep in the litter, especially if you only keep one sex and there isn't one or it is already apparent it does not meet your criteria.

Add me to that list too..

My last 5 litters I have kept 2 pups.. even when my girl only produced 3 pups in a litter... two litters ago.. a litter of 10.. I held back 5 till 5 months.. peas in a pod.. all had homes waiting.. and waited those 5 months for me to finally make my decision.. 4 of those 5 are in the showring..

I breed for ME...

But you didn't keep five pups only the two.

She will be a full grown adult before I even think of breeding again so I will see if she is what I hope for,the family keep in touch so i`ll see how she is then.Chances are if I did a repeat ther wouldn`t be a pup for me as she was the only one I wanted.As things stand just now I may not be breeding again.

All my girls are with me for life.

>But you didn't keep five pups only the two.

thats true.. I dont have a good way of making myself clear...   my point is there is a reason for breeding... and its NOT to breed.. just because I can...

I know many people say.. "I keep a pup from every litter" but what they omit to tell you is that they dont keep it forever.. sometimes it doesnt 'come on' and is maybe re-homed as a young adult... that I find hard to do.. but acceptable to a certain extent..

But.. when you have a litter of 6week old pups and say.. I am not keeping any.. then what is the point in the litter?  bear in mind I am talking about a breed which possibly has the largest gene pool in the UK...

A smaller gene pool might make a difference.. good breeding to keep the numbers from falling to a dangerous level...

In labradors over 47000 were registered last year.. I would hate to hazard a guess at how many un-reg litters were produced..

for the record.. without stats.. responsible breeders breed with a PLAN to keep at least one pup from the litter... and dont allow anyone to take pick until they themselves have chosen....

and certainly would not let anyone chose a pup that I would loved to have kept.. that just doesnt make sense!

Yes that is what I was sort of saying.  I breed in the hopes of advancing my breeding plans and because I can't keep a pup from every litter )can't bear to part with them so can't run on) I try and place pups where they may hopefully be useful to the gene pool shown  and if bred from provide me with useful studs down the line.

It also makes me very proud if I have bred something good enough to win for others.

I am also very aware that my (and anyones) breeding decisions may impact on the breed as a whole in this country, so think very carefully about which dogs to use so as there is somewhere to go in the next generation.

I agree there must be good reasons to breed, but that it is possible to do so without keeping a pup from every litter.

I agree in a breed with numbers as prolific as yours that any breeding really needs to be justified.  I expect that you can see in other breeders litters what a dog is producing and to some extent what strengths and weaknesses a bitch line has.

It is a bit different when there are only 15 to 20 litters bred a year, many of which will inevitably be by the same or related dogs and bitches.

Even so we still have the odd puppy farmed litter sold through commercial outlests or to anyone with the money who then end up in rescue.

glad some one with common sense and experience has commented - if we all kept a puppy from a litter where would our breeds be?  keeping the best of a bad lot isnt always adviseable!

> I am sure I would be much more successful if I ran on the best pup from each litter and then if it didn't come up to scratch re-homed it, but I find myself unable to do so.
>

That is so refreshing to hear.  And I'm so glad that I'm not the only one. 

> All my girls are with me for life.

Me too!

i have just read that poem and all iv done is cry, i dont know of its because iv just got up, that is so touching, iv never cried like this since micky died in rocky, lol, i think this should be posted out to everyone, around the world(not that is will happen) just to let ppl know just exactly whats in it, because if i hadn't already lined my bitch it would make me think, i just hope we can cope, im sure we will, fingers xxxxxs'd

yes, puppy farming is so awful, my partner went with his dad to complain about the problems they were having with their choc lab (i'll give you 2guesses what) yes, hip displasure, he didn,t want to know, my partner said i have never seen somethingso awfull, he had all breeds if thats what you wanna call them, i said he should have taken it further but he didnt want to loose his lab, bottom lone is this is why they are in rescue, because ppl cant afford to treat these illnesses or dissorders,

sami

keeping the best of a bad lot isnt always adviseable!

I see no point in breeding unless I want a pup

I see the validity in both points.... I always breed for me, only when I want a puppy and never for the Joe Public market...
BUT ... If the litter is all male and or mismarked or not the qualty I want to take forward, then I wont keep one. However I wouldn't know that before they are born. This then gives rise to a surplus- but I am sometimes reluctant to compile a waiting list of prospective owners because they hassle me into making a decision and I do upset a lot of wouldbe owners by saying that I bred these puppies for ME and I will keep them as long as I chose.

My OH was watching Match of the Day last night and he had a heap of dogs on his lap/feet/head etc and he got cross and said " we've got to get rid of at least one of these dogs"
I said " ok which one?"  he look at all of them in turn and then said " well definately on the summer then" and went back to scratching some fur- baby bellys........ all talk that's him :-)

tooolz I love it!!!!

thought I would update as I had a neighbours daughter expressing an interest in breeding....

Pups are 6 weeks on Tuesday and I cannot describe how I feel, exhausted doesnt come close, what with pups to look after, older dogs and mum to look after and puppy people to accomodate and of course sleep and feeding for me and helpers we are nearly dead on our feet!!!   The litter has cost hundreds in terms of stud fee, whelping, feeding, poss thousands when you consider show fees, health tests, and that doesnt take into account the neccesities like vaccinations, food, training and other vets bills.  I am also ill with a bad leg which I didnt bank on.

How people think breeding is easy is beyond me, maybe I am too soft but if done properly it is hard work, the hard work pays off in the end when at 5 weeks you have outgoing puppies that want to nosey at everything and everyone, these are puppies that have been socialised from day 1!   I will miss them so much however I will be glad to get a piece of normaltity into my life.

How people cope with 6-7 litters per year I will never know, it is impossible unless you have staff at beck and call and then it becomes a business.   I can hand on heart say I would never want to earn a living from breeding dogs, done properly and ethically it is one of the most stressful things to do.

Amd also what annoys me is the amount of puppies on Epupz with NO confirmation on health testing!!

people with 6/7 litters a year may also be puppy farms where pups are kept in a shed 24/7 and never see daylight.

Amd also what annoys me is the amount of puppies on Epupz with NO confirmation on health testing!!

This could also be said of the Kc site if the breeder is not an AB. And most other places where puppies are advertised unless the breeder actually states it in the advert.

I see many top show and working people advertising on epupz, so it can't be all bad! :)

>I see many top show and working people advertising on epupz, so it can't be all bad!

Lots of them advertise there even if they never have puppies to sell so that they can direct enquirers to reputable breeders and away from the puppy farmers and BYBs. ;-)

Well, that has to be a good thing then, shame they can't do the same on the kc site, where lots of people look for a kc reg puppy. :).........or, of course, all the 'other places' I suppose the reason they go on epupz is because its free, although how they make enough money to run it beats me!

I suppose they make enough money to run it as they charge £5 for you to view new ads (I think of 5 days and under) so if you are genuinely looking for a puppy you will pay the charge.

You see the same ads running constantly on e pupz for GR's the same picture, wordings etc, click on the breeders!! and find they have at least 4 other types of pups for sale too. I put an add onlast year and stated in bold Do not buy from  parents who do not hold the relevant BVA/KC tests and briefly explained why. I had 16 hate e-mails sent within the week from the puppy farmers. They have become clever now though and are charging about £150 less than breeders who do all the relevant health tests and they have changed their wording to appear like proper breeders. Makes me so mad

You'll need to change your warning to ask to see the parents  health clearances, abd check their reputation with breed clubs, as puupy farners will endeavour to seen reputable.

I had one pup re-available as I had to turn the prospective family down. I advertised on a free website, not epupz though. I actually found a home through word of mouth very quickly anyway, but kept the ad on, and when anyone rang gave them the breed club puppy co-ordinator phone number and told them that this way they would get a good puppy who's parents had been health checked etc. A lot of people didn't seem to know about the health checks, but when I explained why they are needed, they seemed greatful.

Hopefully it did some good, and I woudl advertise there again for the same reason. I think the majority of people look to these places first for pups, or the local freeads, and the more responsible people who advertise in them, the better, IMO. If people ring round and speak to a good, responsible breeder and then a bad breeder or puppy farmer, a lot will notice a difference.

I quite agree.  If I am unable to help anyone looking for a puppy I still always take the time to find out how much they know about the breed and what to look for in a responsible breeder and what not to!  As you say, if it helps any unsuspecting potential purchaser, it makes me feel good.  I have to say I still find it surprising how many people do not do enough research on buying a puppy and it is so easy these days as so many people have the internet.

In reply to Brainless, I will change wording next time, tell them to ask to see relevant KC/BVA forms and the colours of the forms, make sure they taly with the registered sire or dam etc and will also put on to advise people to make sure pup they buy is also KC reg not dog lovers as that seems to be another ploy they use. I feel so sad for these poor little mites and the dams also that are just breeding machines.

It really does come down to buyers being wise to buying from reputable breeders.  Sadly many get conned, and it is only something most people do a couple of times in their life, an often they don't realise if lucky that they made a mistake, or it is so long since last time they still don't know..

I know 'show people' with 6 liters advertised this year, they dont work just breed and in my eyes are puppy farmers.  People who reach 'TOP BREEDER' have won alot at shows and in breeds that have lots of entries this can mean having puppies entered in every class - hence breeding alot.  I often see puppies from certain kennels in every class.  They must be churning them out on a conveyor belt, despite websites saying - 'no puppies available'!  I think that the internet now educates people when buying puppies.  people can find websites, visit litters and take it from there, whereas before it was a case of Newspaper ads, Kennel Club, Breed Club or word of mouth (which can still help but those on a committee or friends of a breeder will 'help and promote their own'. 

As I type my puppies are 6 weeks old tomorrow and still having a mad play session and whining (it is 12.25am) - I will eventually get to sleep when they do. What fun!

I once had a bit of an argument with someone who was slating e-pupz, as I used that site last year and got genuine puppy enqs (in fact I still get the odd e-mail) but I pointed out that those people don't necessarily know where to look, and surely it's better they get in touch with me than some less reputable breeder?? (not that I have any reputation at all, it was my first litter last year ;) )I'm still in regular contact with all my puppy people, some of which are breed-club members too.
At the end of the day, there will be abuse of any advertising system, no matter how good the checks are

Hope you feel more energetic soon FooFoo - I was exhausted for so long, and only really started to relax a bit when they hit 7 weeks, but then the cleaning became more of an issue, bigger pups produce bigger poops ;) I also started a really baaaad habit of TV Shopping when I had the pups, and I'm afraid my garden was so neglected......so there are other drawbacks to breeding too - lol