posting for advice re a friend's litter, not mine.

2 week old pups have started gtting poorly, so far one has died and 3 are ill. Dire-rear (can't spell it) and general decline.

Now this happened to same breeder last summer, but it started when the pups were 6 weeks old, all had been fine and it came on very suddenly, literally dying in her arms, despite rushing to vets and spending a week on a drip, she lost them at the vets too. One girl from last litter never got the illness, only 4 pups out of 10 survived last year.

So breeder is now very concerned about these pups. Mum is fine, and until these pups became ill they were descirbed as big chunky pups, 9 in total. I'm upset because I was going to go and see them this week, and it's so sad that they're ill.

The vet has been contacted and has looked at last year's notes, and has said it is no use prescribing ab's. It is thought that it was a form of entiritis last summer.

Any ideas?? I'm not at all experienced in these matters and I tend to try and use logic - the Mum is not ill, the whelping room is clean, no other dogs have access once room in use, no other dogs are ill, there are other puppies there that are fine, there have been no visitors.......

any ideas?? Has anyone else experienced this??? This breeder is experienced but she has no idea at this time.....

Could they be reacting to the moms milk?
I know someone who was losing pups turns out the bitches milk was soar and was killing the pups,she took them
off the bitch and bottle fed and the rest were fine.

that's a possibility - is there a way to test the milk??

and correction to initial post, these pups haven't started with squits yet - they are crying with tummy ache, and their gums go white before they die :(

which to me is indicative of an internal problem, and was wondering if liver shunt would be apparent at this early age??

they have not been wormed yet and are still on mother's milk only....

Liver shunt is possible in baby whelps and if the pups are from teh same bitch perhaps it is a problem she ahs passed on.  If it is a repoaet amting even more so.

My first thoughts though was Parvo, and second Canien Herpes Virus.

Acid Milk is an old wives tale.

My first thoughts were did bitch have CHV innocualtion during pregnancy?

And my first thoughts were a reaction to the wormer if they'd just been wormed....

Jo

Must admit my first thought was parvo.  None of her dogs have had it in the last 2 to 3 years have they?

not very experienced in this but white gums means anaemia which could be connected to a heavy worm infestation ...was the mother wormed pre mating??

Good point - and with Panacur don't you worm the bitch every day for the second half of pregnancy (from day 40 for 25 days) until 2 days after whelping, to minimise the worm burden?

Reply to Jg  yes you do worm with panacur as you stated from day 40 to 2 days post whelp.
whelps with liver shunt tend to fade quite quickly but their coats are different from 'normal' whelps, more wiry, they also may fit soon after feeding depending on the severity of the shunt from what I have seen. Is this a breed prone to liver shunt? it does sound as if there is something genetically wrong with the pups if the same happened last year.
Hope whatever it is, it is a happy outcome for the pups.

right - I don't know all the answers, but will try and address all points (you lot are great - it's like a brain gathering!)

this was an accidental mating - she wasn't meant to be mated this year at all, so there will have been no worming, no other medical attention re jabs etc, and both dogs have only ever mated each other, if that makes sense?? Breeder didn't realise bitch in whelp until a week before she actually had the pups, so a bit of a surprise

the breed are tested for liver shunt at 8 weeks normally. The surviving pups last year were tested later due to the illness and all passed.

The breeder has been looking in to liver shunt in neo-natal pups, as she is wondering if that may have an input.

and as mentioned before, this happened just before the pups were wormed for the first time, so they have not been wormed yet.

I havn't spoken with her yet today, so no update re the pups I'm afraid.

But here's some interesting statistics - first litter from this bitch, 5 pups, all survived (I have 2 from this litter) none ill ; second litter, repeat mating, 4 survived from 10, all doing well now ; third litter, not planned as is a repeat mating which was not desired, but here we are, 9 live pups, now down to 6......

maybe this bitch can only raise 4 o 5?? Is that a possibility?? Doesn't seem logical to me...

edited to add - no parvo in last 3 years as far as I'm aware - she has 2 other breeds that have been whelping in same vicinity with no problems at all, no illnesses and no pup mortality like this.....

White gums mean less oxygen in the blood doesnt it?
Whatever the cause that is an instant bad sign :(

Poor little pups, praying they pull through. xx

if this bitch was not wormed before mating during whelp (due to not being planed) and the pups are not wormed after birth i would think that a worm infestation would be a high possibility.

hope they pull through good luck

A heavy worm burden can cause dangerous life threatening anaemia.

This was the case with a  litter a Friend rescued.

Does sound like the symptoms of a very heavy worm burden. What age did she worm the pups for the first time?

not been on for a few days, 5 surviving pups at the moment, she will be worming the pups for the first time in next few days, but she doesn't believe it to be worm-related.

Fingers crossed for remaining pups, and thanks for your input