i can understand how cross breed accidents happen and i know some people prefer crosses (cant understand why anyone would pay for doodles etc but thats another matter) what i cannot understand is why people will continue to buy non kc reg pups and breed them? there was an ad on a free site- non kc reg pups due to 'fathers restrictions'. i wrote to them asking why they still bred a litter as the restrictions are there for a purpose ie: DONT BREED! probably for a good reason too, such as wrong size/colour/bad mouth etc or some poor blighter trying to protect their lines! they replied that the father had restrictions- if i had read the ad properly, well of course i had thats why i wrote! these people are obviously only breeding for the cash but WHY do people buy these pups??? its exploitation! i cant understand it at all, isnt it time the kc did something?

> what i cannot understand is why people will continue to buy non kc reg pups and breed them?

The reason is simple.  They buy them because they can and they a) know no better or b) don't care.

> isnt it time the kc did something?

Like what?  What could they do?

Debs

I seen a ad few days ago mum and dad kc reg pups are not so emailed to ask why pups werent and they replied mum is too young to reg a litter, OMG poor little thing must be under the age of one as from what i can remember the kc will reg a litter aslong as mum is over 1.
Well i cant write on here what my reply was but im sure you can guess it.

When I was a child, just living in a small village, there was always someone with a cat having kittens, it was the same in towns, cities, you could always get a kitten from somewhere, now that is quite hard, I know I had to go to the internet to find my last kitten.

My assumption is that once we all had a cat, there was no need for anyone to breed kittens, they were stuck with them, or they disposed of them, over the last 25 odd years neutering is something that most people with kittens will automatically do when they come of age. Now we are generally left with proper cat breeders the odd farm will breed and just the occassional batch of kittens from joe public, but nothing like it was.

I think the same will end up happening with dogs, people will buy dogs from anywhere, although I always will push the KC to get some big advertising done to educate the public on always buying KC reg as a first port of call, they are not willing to do this. (I guess it would cost too much :-( )

Ligitimate breeders although we do our very best, we are not able to reach the millions of people who need to hear.

Either we shall get to a stage where the majority of households will all have dogs............. hence no need for excess breeding as pups will be left with the breeder.

Rescues are always short of money so as much as I am sure they would like to do even more than they did at Christmas time, with big TV adverts, billboards and radio adverts on not just helping the thousands already in their care but on not breeding at all, they physically can't afford it.

The government seem to think that by reducing walking areas and making things difficult for dog owners this will stop pups from being bought, it won't as people don't encounter these problems until they have the pup or dog. They would be much better served in stopping the pups from being here in the first place.

Joe public breed firstly for an extra income, ( all be it without the knowledge of the true cost ) or because they think it will be cute to have puppies, not thinking of the consequences as these are the pups most likely not to be endorsed or have a lifelong breeder friend to help out with training and growing issues etc, reducing the owners to turn to rescues.

The government are the only people powerful enough to help, to encourage only buying KC and to discourage breeding unless necessary, it is the vast number of dogs being bred that is the problem, no-one else has the power to reach everyone and to educate.

We shall just continue on the track we are on, until it becomes such a large problem it will cost thousands of dogs lives. :-(

It cost 8000 dogs lives last year and there are huge numbers sitting long term in shelters.

it is the disability and lack of commitment that is the problem with both owners and BYB's.

If owners and breeders had a legal financial ongoing responsibility to the dogs they discard or don't take back?

It cost 8000 dogs lives last year and there are huge numbers sitting long term in shelters.

Well....... that's enough, how many more need to loose their lives, I truly do not understand why the government are not stepping in to help. Saying you can't walk your dog off lead in places and sending out more and more dog wardens is not helping the figures, although helpful in some respects, they need to focus in other directions too.

I know we have many on here who work in rescue, do rescues lobby the government with the true figures?  If not why not? What replies do the government give?

I know the majority of us would all happily sign a petition for the government to start a campaign of awareness.

The reason is simple.  They buy them because they can and they a) know no better or b) don't care.

and because they cant afford to pay the amount people ask for kc registered pups

Not always true Hayley some of the crosses are more expensive than KC reg breeds.

oh yes true i was thinking of pure bred un registered, not crosses sorry

Yes sorry Hayley my mistake LOL

> satincollie Not always true Hayley some of the crosses are more expensive than KC reg breeds.

That is so true!  I have a toy breed, which has a long coat and smooth coat variety.  I recently saw pups advertised on a well known puppy farmer site.  Pups smooth x long will not be KC registered, but pedigree with 5 generation papers.  Won't be registered?  They CAN'T be registered, they're bloody cross breeds!  And they were asking more than I've just charged for my KC registered litter! 

I agree with this thread ....the KC could do a little more to advertise well bred puppies (KC registered and parents having appropriate health etc.) checks a little more or do the opposite and bring to peoples attention the puppyfarmers.

Some sites maybe happy to promote the KC breeders and advise Joe public that there is an alternative. They could inform buyers of puppy farmers and back yard money makers. I am sure many would be shocked and avoid them and not fall into the trap of rescuing a puppy from the farmers because they feel sorry for it, (and paying good money to do so)!

The trouble is I am not sure how you influence the KC. Do they have breeder representatives?

The reason is simple.  They buy them because they can and they a) know no better or b) don't care.

and because they cant afford to pay the amount people ask for kc registered pups

I don't agree. Peopl might not be able to afford one RIGHT NOW, but if you can afford to keep a dog, you can afford to save up for one. The trouble is plenty of people don't want to wait for things these days, they tend to see it as their right to have things instantly.

Sadly, the majority of people still see nothing wrong with Joe Bloggs down the street breeding a litter from their pet crossbred or whatever. Something needs to be done to educate people so they stop buying these dogs, as after all, if the 'breeders' couldn't sell them, they wouldn't breed again.

If anyone can think of a way to try and do something, I would happily invest my time into the matter. It destroys me to think of other dogs like my much loved girl being unwanted.

Sadly it will never stop.  People want a dog right now, and look in the papers.  What do you see?  Breeders tend not to advertise in local papers that they have pups.  Thats the problem, that unless you know where to go, you wont find what you are looking for. 

I occassionally browse through the pet section in the local paper, and have only ever seen one advert for a CKC registered litter with all health tests. 

Also, people DO NOT want to spend loads of money on a dog.  People inquiring about a pup, tend to ask first about money, and then about pedigree, or other things.  The only people that dont ask about money, are other breeders, who know what the price of the average pup is, so they already have a ballpark figure in mind. 

Many people say "You spent $XXXX on a dog???  Are you nuts????"   They see the price tag, but I see my dog.  I see a dog, that came from Champion parents, that had all their health tests, and that were bred from a loving and caring home.  I see what a wonderful pedigree she has, which is supported by her qualities as a pure bred dog.  She fits standard quite nicely.

And some people just dont want a pure bred dog.  The media and shelters claim that mongrels have less health issues, and are less expensive to take care of.  With that type of publicity, it is rather hard to not think that mongrels are better (unless you know better). 

There is nothing we, pure bred dog fanciers, can do to stop the breeding of doodles, and other cross bred dogs.  Sad, but its true.  And there is nothing, the national kennel clubs can do, to stop the breeding of said dogs.  They cant even stop the breeding of pure bred dogs.

Many people wont by a dog with a non breeding contract either, since they say "well I bought the dog, I can do what I please?  How dare you tell me I cant breed it?" 

Its society.  And we, the pure bred dog fanciers, are the minority now.  Sad though, that the government is targetting us, with dog legislation, but not the ones who are breeding for profit.  But thats another topic.

but hayley many breeders only charge to cover the costs of their pups. and if people really wanted a certain breed why not save? or go to a breed rescue?

In Response to Astarte
but hayley many breeders only charge to cover the costs of their pups.

i dont believe that at all, it doesnt cost me £400 to rear a pup and certainly not £1600 for a litter maybe if i was breeding border collies, what i got for each pup maybe what i spent on it but not on a pup that cost hundreds of pounds

LOL(slightly of topic) when was the last time you bought BC? Go look at the prices for a reg BC.

ok, well if you disaprove of the price of pedigree pups why charge £400? (not picking fight, just making a point)

The fair price to sell pups at is to add up all your costs and divide it by the number of pups in the litter.

i know registered collies are expensive ive seen some for £500 i meant working bred collies lol guess i should have put that in an earlier post

i dont disapprove of prices just i know for a fact that it doesnt cost the amount to rear that people charge, and i guess i should charge more than £400 considering when i buy one i pay £500 and travel a thousand miles, my new puppy stands me in at least £700

The fair price to sell pups at is to add up all your costs and divide it by the number of pups in the litter.

so going by our last litter i should be charging £86 per pup

The fair price to sell pups at is to add up all your costs and divide it by the number of pups in the litter.

so going by our last litter i should be charging £86 per pup

And I should have been charging about £730 per pup, which I didn't, I charged the going rate, which was less than that.

I don't think how much the going rate for most breeds is just reflects costs incurred by the breeder from the time of mating to the time of the pups leaving for their new homes. Also, it is a proven, researched fact that if people pay a reasonable amount for a dog, rather than getting it for nothing or little, they are more likely to hold it in higher regard and have given more thought into getting it int he first place. Obviously this doesn't apply to everyone, but for most people, spending £6-700 requires some serious thought, whereas spending £20-£50 does not.

> certainly not £1600 for a litter maybe if i was breeding border collies,

Certainly costs me £1600 - £1800 to rear a litter (health testing etc doesn't come cheap), and my litters average just under 6 pups over the years (3 to 9 pups, but most often 4 or 7 for some strange reason). 

That means I need to sell at least 3 pups to cover costs (keep one), so the other one or two will help keep the gang in bonios, or pay for a couple of show entries.

That is little compensation for the weeks of work and the lifetime commitment and often time and money spent on the ones that need re-homing at some point in their lives.

> The fair price to sell pups at is to add up all your costs and divide it by the number of pups in the litter.
>
> so going by our last litter i should be charging £86 per pup

I would include the costs of acquiring the bitch & keeping her for the full period of her life.

My Mr Wu cost me £400 Which I think is quite reasonable, his mum had to have a C section, the puppies were eye screened, tattooed & chipped, they were reared beautifully & came with registration. pedigree, etc etc in the puppy pack. Out of the 6 puppies the breeders kept two, not the first picks which were my boy & his sister & in any case the two other puppies were the ones the new owners would have chosen had the had the whole litter to choose from & the two the breeders kept were the ones they would have chosen if they had the whole litter to choose from. It was a litter bred to preserve the bloodlines from two of the best Obedience Champions that have ever worked in the UK. I have waited 20 years to get a dog from these lines because whilst the dogs were alive the time was never right to have one, now I have two as his breeders gave me his full sister-so really I have got two for the price of one.

People who want a puppy like yesterday, aren't bothered about health checks, DNA tests etc etc they want to be able to buy a puppy in the same way they do their weekly shopping. They don't to pay much for the puppy unless it is a "new exotic"designer breed. I don't think trying to educate will work, it needs to be the next generation that needs to learn as they will be the dog owners of the future

I've already spent over £400 on my two & that's without adding the KC bits & pieces, titre tests & vax ! next will be their Pet Passports !

I quite agree Moonmaiden keeping your bitch until she is bred from costs quite a lot, and if I wasn't breeding I wouldn't keep generations of bitches, just buy another in as it is a lot cheaper than creating and maintaining a breeding line.

Also good breeders don't exploit their bitches.

I doubt the 7 pups I sold from my foundation bitch covered the cost of keeping her for 13 1/2 years or even the 16 her daughter had covered her lifetime.

If I didn't breed I would keep two dogs purely as pets not at least four but up to 6 at a time.   So offsetting some of that cost by selling pups a little over plain rearing costs seems reasonable (though often a small litter, a C section, or travelling abroad/importing a stud will mean a loss), and the only way many of us can afford to breed at all.

I would include the costs of acquiring the bitch & keeping her for the full period of her life.

the cost of acquiring the bitch was taken from the first litter we had from her, and she was a birthday present anyway, one bitch hasnt and wont be bred from another was taken from the first bitches litter so she didnt cost alot, and the new bitch i have came from the litter i have now so she wont have cost alot and as for costs of keeping the bitch her whole life that comes out of my pocket, i dont have to keep her so im not going to charge her for living here, which is practically what you are suggesting

Certainly costs me £1600 - £1800 to rear a litter (health testing etc doesn't come cheap),

im not being assy but its your choice to keep a breed that requires expensive health tests, there are no required health tests for the BT so i dont have to add that into my breeding costs

Price of bitch (I bought this one in)
Cost of rearing
Health testing (including MRI scan)
Cost of stud dog
Travel and accommodation to mating ( 800 mile round trip - 2 nights in hotel)
Vet bills - (pups 7 days prem and I lost 3 of the 4)
One puppy left - kept him.

So the cost rolls over to the next litter and I kept two of the 3 born (All pups went to vet hospital to have hearts Dopplered at £250 each)
So if I work it out properly I would say a pup from the 2nd litter would be worth about £2500 - 3000 at cost price.
The third pup from this litter actually went to a friend free of charge.
Yes it is my choice to breed this type of dog, I could fill my backyard with money spinners and churn them out but choose not to.
If I add to the huge dog population it has to be with better dogs-The best I can produce.

>so going by our last litter i should be charging £86 per pup

The cost divided by the number is the advice given to me by my breed club. Don't forget to include the cost of your time looking after the litter. How much would you have to pay someone to come in and look after them if you were out at work?

> im not being assy but its your choice to keep a breed that requires expensive health tests, there are no required health tests for the BT

I'm sorry but Hip scoring and eye testing are pretty standard for all breeds, the fact that many breeds have a low take up rate is neither here nor there.  All breeds get HD and most breeds have some proven or emerging eye problem if checked for.

Additional tests our breed think prudent is kidney function (as some few cases of FRD have been found worldwide where dogs die by five years due to underdeveloped kidneys).  We are also trying to get DNA tests for eye problems.

I would say that my breed being pretty healthy natural mothers, very low numbers of C sections etc is a not expensive to rear.

I would say sit down and start doing some maths.

Stud fee (price of a pup)
Travel costs.
Blood tests for mating time or additional travel costs.
food for bitch and pups (mine get through a bag a week at least plus meat etc)
Registrations and affix maintenance
Wormer for bitch and pups
Permanent Identification of pups by Tattoo or Microchip
Health testing
New Bedding and initial/replacement equipment
Puppy pack items, which will include stationery, books, collars and leads etc,
Advertising including breed club membership
Cleaning products
Electricity and phone bills

Yes it is my choice to keep the dogs, but if I were not breeding I would keep one or two, and not have to maintain a line of four to 6 just to keep it going.

I could save money by getting rid of my bitches once they had been bred from, breed the maximum number of litters from each and breed earlier.  I choose to breed two to three litters from bitches who usually are 3 years old before being bred from, and kept for life.

Of course I want to breed quality animals so I have travelled abroad to mate a bitch litter cost over £3000, not including the cost of looking after the dogs at home or the money you spend while away, just the cost of getting her there and back).  The bitch I kept has not turned out as hoped (but her sister has and is doing well for her owners).  So I need to keep another pup from her Mum, but she will be staying and with luck may produce something better than herself so as not to waste the new bloodline, but I won't be able to keep one of hers until she is perhaps 6 years old if I keep her half sister thsi time.

I have also imported a dog as a stud dog and my quarter share of his upkeep and purchase has cost me £2075, plus stud fees when I have used him, but without that investment the breed would not have had the new blood he brought in, and the 4 UK and several overseas champions he has produced in just 8 litters, and I would have had nowhere to go with my champion bitch as all the available males were fairly closely related to her.  Personally the investment go me my younger champion girl, but again a lot of the males are now her half brothers or her Mums close relatives, which is why I took her abroad.

Yet my breed is not overpriced being a very reasonable £550 - £60 to buy top quality, be it for purely companion or show.

A lot of tiem and money goes into creating and maintainign bloodlines by concientious breeders who are breedign to maintain and improve theri breed.

there are those who then take advantage of their work on the cheap producign pups on the back of their outlay and work, often producing poor quality by the chapest and not best means, relying on the genral public not knowing the difference.

Stud fee £80.00
travel costs, 0
Blood tests, 0
food, not sure as already had it
registrations, £48.00
wormer £15.00 have loads left
permanent id, microchips £28.80,  had enough left over from last time
health testing, 0
new bedding, newspaper bought to read so 0
replacement equipment 0
puppy pack, books £18.82, pedigrees £10.00 (hand made) food £10.40 (1kg each) diet sheets £0.20
Advertising 0
cleaning products £10.00
Electricity and phone bills 0

Surely from those figures you can see that most breeders would have much higher costs.  You haven't even bothered to include the obvious ones.  After all you did buy the food, etc etc.

I assume you do use heating, bedding whelping boxes/pens for your pups.  Your very fortunate not to need to travel for the best stud dgo (this has cost me anything from £540 to £1200) and that he was available do cheaply (I would expect to pay £550 - £600).  Also very fortunate not to ahve any advertising costs (not even cost of breed club advertising?)

Basic health testing of the bitch £300.

If the costs of rearing a Border Terrier litter are so low I am surprised that well bred pups are not far of the price of my own breed.

Your of course not even counting the hidden costs of breeding, proving ones breeding stock, which is where any money over from puppy sales goes.

yes i did buy the food the bag cost £40.00 which i bought for my own puppy i still have 6kg left from a 15kg bag, i had 110lbs of minced tripe which cost £30.00 all this food was bought for our other dogs, it was co0ld when the pups arrived so the heating was on in that room anyway, we dont use a whelping box, we already had a pen for when they are outside, the stud dog came to us, and lots of people who have border stud dogs charge between £80 and £200 pups were sold priar to birth so no need for advertising
showing is something i enjoy doing, that comes out of my pocket i dont breed so i can show

Here are the costs of my last but one litter using a UK based stud (the lat one cost £1200 to visit the stud abroad).

As this was the bitches last litter the cost of Hip scoring was already included in her first litter.

Stud Fee £550
Travel £100
Panacur for bitch in whelp £12
Palpation pregnancy confirmation £18.35
Eye Testing £30.14
Wormer for pups £7.56
Treatment for mastitis £130.87
KC reg of pups £84
Affix maintenance £12
Tattooing pups £69
Pup vaccinations and Health certification £116.60
Collars and leads for pups (to last into adulthood) £65.25
Dog Books £17.50
Advertising £96
Replacement Bedding (given to each pup owner) £24
Food (Lucky to have a Friend who can buy wholesale prices) £130.24
Donation to Breed Rescue and Breed club Health Fund £192.50

Total costs £1656.01

Now of course there could have been extra costs like a c section, veterinary costs if problems with the litter or a pup etc etc.

I did not reckon in the wasted costs of travelling to a stud and doing the eye testing etc when my bitch missed on the previous season.

I also did not reckon in the extra fuel/phone costs, washing of bedding nd detergents, sanitisers etc.

I too don't breed to show as since the sale of my last litter in March 2007 I have spent £2300 on limited showing and keeping my four dogs (plus the one in partnership).

From the sale of the 7 pups I had £2000, and the next litter due to the overseas stud lost me money, so that helped cover that, then there are the matings that cost and don't end up with a litter, puppy sales nowhere near cover a breeders costs.

If I didn't charge what my breed clubs breeders mutually agree is a fair price then I could not afford to breed.

Also when the next pup at whatever age comes back in need of re-homing that will cost me too.

was that £2000 profit? or what you made as a whole? our next litter will cost less again as i am planning to use the dog i now own and yes i know he cost lots but what weve made this time has paid for him

I found that the hidden costs add up. Such as:-
The new heat pad - £30.00 plus delivery
Puppy milk for emergencies- £5.50
Washing liquid/tablets for washing machine to keep the 10 pieces of vet bed going- £6.00
Extra electricity and water for washing machine - £?
Tumble dryer on a wet day for bedding and towels - £ ?
Extra Electricity cost - £?
Puppy weaning food - £15.00
New Dopram -V - £9 plus delivery
Tri -gene for food dishes, crates, puppy pens and whelping box - £10.00
toilet roll, kitchen towels and puppy poo bags - £?
heating bills in general - £?
Puppy ID collars
Whelping emergency first aid kit - £10 - £20

PUPPY LEAVING HOME PACKAGE (Including vacs, m-chips, toys , blanket, first collar, doglopeidea book , food, ETC) - £80 approx. (including extra phone calls)

This is extra to the ones you have mentioned above. I think your first litter is definately the most expensive and after that there is certain things you can re-use or do without. If you paid yourself a minimum wage of £5 per hour for the time you spend rearing, socialising, washing bedding and general cleaning, house training /garden visits, phone calls, and clearing up after puppies you would be lucky to make a profit on a £400 puppy with all the things that have been mentioned here and before. The majority of the real cost are hidden.

But I m sure people could do it cheaper if they wanted....

oh yes and a tin of lactol £8.00

Maybe you can let me know where you got your wormers from Brainless? Also, eye testing, or are subsequent ones less expensive? It might help me save a bit of money next time! My costs were as follows:

Stud Fee £550
Travel £50
Check over by my vet prior to breeding £30
3 Premates £150
Hipscore £180
Eye Test £80
Panacur for bitch in whelp £56 (2 bottles, but do have a little left over)
Scan for pregnancy confirmation £40
Wormer for pups £28
KC reg of pups £108
Affix maintenance £12
Litter and Mum home checked by vet the morning after whelping £80
All pups to vet for health check prior to going to new homes: £130
Vetbed £80
Food £580
Whelping Box £200
Heat lamp/small room heater £60
Frontlining pups £56
Puppy packs for new owners (9 x £50) £450
Puppy pens £150
Crate £60
Money lost through 14 weeks taken off work (self employed) £4200

Total Costs £7330 (which would mean if I divided costs each pup should have been sold for £814, which obviously they weren't)

Again, as Brainless says, that is without 'incidental' costs such as cleaning, detergents etc. Also without the costs of anything that might have gone wrong. It doesn't cover the cost of me travelling out to see a pup to give the new owners advice when they were having problems. Oh, and without the cost of extra newspaper, as we ran out!  Admittedly, some of the costs incurred are fixed costs, so won't apply again until they need replacing.

Also, hayley123, if you use newspaper as bedding, how do your pups know where to toilet and where to sleep? doesn't it just interchange so they have no permenant 'nest'?

I get my wormer from Hyperdrug and get the half litre or litre or Pancur which saves a lot.  As it ahs logn shlf life (several years), and I will go though 100ml for the bitch in whlp plus wormign all of them regualry and the pups I get through quite a lot.

Hayley, yes I came out with what on paper would be £2000 profit, some of which was swallowed up by the loss on the next litter, and long since swallowed up on maintaining the dogs and showing sparingly.

I will have spent an awful lot more by the next time I breed, and the bitch missed last season so costs already there too.

I breed on average a litter a year and my average litter size has been just under 6 pups.

>food, not sure as already had it

I've never known a pregnant/nursing bitch - and the whole litter when weaned - to eat only her normal maintenance ration, so the cost of the additional food would need to be determined.

>Electricity and phone bills 0

Did the whelping room not need additional heating at all? Did you not phone the stud dog owner to keep him/her up-to-date on the litter's welfare? Did you not call back prospective buyers to ensure that the contact number they gave was genuine?

In Response to Jeangenie

like i said previously we had food already and yes enough and dont try and make me out as a cruelty case by saying my bitch would need more food than normal and that im not giving it to her, that is practically what you are suggesting,

no it didnt need additional heat the whelping room is in doors not out, alot of the time it had to be turned down as it was too hot, i had buyers for the pups before they were born so no i didnt have to make sure they were real numbers and for what reason would the stud dog owner need to be kept up to date about the litters welfare?

i also had docking to pay for which although no longer has to be paid for the dew claws do

> i had buyers for the pups before they were born so no i didnt have to make sure they were real numbers and for what reason would the stud dog owner need to be kept up to date about the litters welfare?

Hayley you seem to live in a very insular canine world compared to most breeders I know.

You don't chat to the stud owner or the new puppy owners about the puppies doings and progress/qualities, you don't like potential new owners visiting before six weeks, you don't feel the need to travel to stud dogs, and you seem to have an untypical view/expereince of your breeds temperament based on previous posts.

Seems strange to others that you seem to think it strange that other breeders feel the need to spend much more to develop improve and maintain their lines and that it costs a lot more to breed this way.

I know that not all Border Terrier breeders have such a narrow view and that there is International and national exchange of bloodlines, to promote and maintain quality in the breed.

Hayley,
Having owned several top quality dogs over the years which have been used at stud, I've always expected to be kept up to date about the litters' development, well-being and welfare.

I am the same even with dogs that I have bred when there are litters from or by them I am checking on how they are doing wanting to see how they are developing etc, and helping their owners if I can.

HI
I am not a breeder, just a buyer. My newfi cost one thousand pounds. I was quite happy with this price, and yes, I would have paid more.
If I feel confident in the breeder, pleased with the enviroment the puppies are kept in and they have had the relevant health checks, I think this is a small price to pay to spend years with a living creature who will give love and joy. I think if a person cannot afford the price (especially in a large breed) then they should not purchase a puppy, or even save up for one. Feeding costs and vet care and medication costs a fortune and I am not sure that joe public always takes these costs into consideration. The operation on my boy's elbow cost me two thousand and eight hundred pounds. I am claiming this money back through insurance but initially it had to come out of my bank account.
Maybe breeders should inform prospective buyers of costs involved and see if these costs can be met. My boy is worth every penny and I would sell the shirt off my back for him. Is he spoilt, too right :)

isnt the stud owner jointly responsible for the litters welfare and to take back pups if neccesary?

i wouldnt expect it of them no any puppies produced are my responsibilty

You don't chat to the stud owner or the new puppy owners about the puppies doings and progress/qualities, you don't like potential new owners visiting before six weeks, you don't feel the need to travel to stud dogs, and you seem to have an untypical view/expereince of your breeds temperament based on previous posts

we spoke to the stud dog owner when the puppies were born, if the new owners want to phone that is their choice if they dont that is also their choice, if i dont want people visiting before 6 weeks it is entirely my choice when did i say its something you have to do? we would have gone to the stud dog owners place but his bitch doesnt like other bitches going there, and i do know alot about the temperment of my breed just worded it wrong