Just wondering if the way a dog carries it's tail is apparent at birth? 

I saw a rottie with a beautiful tail yesterday that sat like a labs tail but have also seen them carried very high and curled, almost spitz like and occasionally screw tailed dogs.  I am just wondering if this is determined fairly early on as I would love a rottweiler but do not like high carried tails - just think it looks a bit mongrelly on a rott and would not like to get a dog then find out it's tail wasn't how I envisaged it to be.  I suppose it might be easier to determine in later years once there has been a number of generations of undocked dogs and hopefully those with non-standard tails wouldn't be bred from - if there is even a standard. 

Well it's definitely not apparant in Pomeranian's.  Doesn't go over their back until about 5/6 weeks.

I think you were right when you said first of all we wont really know until there have been a few generations bred so we know what type of tails we have here.
Because if you think about it, no one knows what type of tails we have been breeding with each other as they have all been docked, so screw tails were mated with curly, and held low with fluffy for all we know!!

Will be intresting to see what type of tails are bred tho :)

My dogs tail has completely changed since birth.
I picked him on his tail and ear carriage but his tail really isnt that great now (hes a year old) and is not one of his best features as it was before when he was younger.
In answer to question-no, its not apparent at birth.

just think it looks a bit mongrelly on a rott

Funny you should say that.... two black dogs playing on the common in front of my house and it was obvious that one was a Rott the other a big black dog so I got my binocculars..(No I'm not a peeper we live by the sea!) and sure enough it was another Rott, quite a good one in fact.
In my two breeds the little ones work out best if, as little puppies, they carry their tails low when eating  the opposite with the Boxers, I want to see them straight up but then I've not had an undocked litter so who knows?

Definitely not apparent in Elkhounds either.  Takes four weeks before they start point up and then another four before they point to the head/curl, and the full curl develops over the first 6 months and can tighten considerably over the first year.

I would thing a high tail set and a screw tail would be obvious, but not the carriage, though of course a high set tail is more likely to be carried up, like a beagle, or over like a Spitz.

I agree that Rotts and dobes look horrid with curly tails.

hmm, slight problem then.  i was hoping the answer would be that they were born that way. 

In my experience you can't see either tail set or carriage uitl well after the pups are walking around.  Most pups seem to be born sort of "potato" shaped, with a slightly curved topline, and thankfully for those breeds which require level or sloping toplines this changes completely wiht age!  This body shape makes the tail set look kid of low.  With the pugs the twists don't develop unitl much later, as well.  Withthe Yankees you get to see the tail set at about 6 weeks (ish)

Yep I would agree about 6 weeks, as this is the traditional age for choosing pups in my breed and you definitely want a high tail set.

It's definitely not apparent in Chihuahuas.

i would say between 6 to 8 week old you can see the tail carrage.

i got photo's of the puppies i have breed and bought in at that age  to all grown into the tail set the same,as the photo at the younger age,

chase has his father tail set,we laugh that,

last year my swd  had tails which couldnt be dock beacuse of the new laws,and you could tell the different tail set while in the nest.one had a nice tail set like a fcr the others as bad a pig curl right round it back,so now we breeders will have to add to our list for breeding for better tails set to the breeds that were docked up till last year

Ive got my first litter of undocked puppies at the mo and their taila are all up and over already, which is how I would like to see them in the ring.  Dont know if they will change though.

What breed? as most of the traditionally docked breeds look horrid with up and over tails.  The only ones that seem to look Good are Vallhunds, Corgi's and Schips, because they have a Spitz look anyway.

Terriers and Poodles with curly tails look awful as do the Rotts and dobes.  An HPR would too, and fortunately haven't seen a  curly tailed spaniel yet.

from what you've all said it sounds like the tails in place by the time puppies are chosen anyway, is that right? in which case does cheeky chow have a good chance of picking a rott thats tail will stay the same if she chooses an older pup?

the dock breed breeders will have to relook at their breed stander and try and breed a nice tail set that looks look on that breed
plus the dogs that were dock their breed stander going have to be changed  beacuse they were dock before to have a writen bit bout the tails,

i dont like the spanish water dogs with tails beacuse they do ride up and over their backs, but i have got one that as a nice level tail set a bit like a fcr. and if i was judging i would go to the one that have the nice tail set for that breed stander so another thing to think about when breeding,

TAILS

Hi Brainless,

Dobies!  Well 'up and over' might not be the best way to describe them.  They 'curl up or 'hold their tails high'.  Ive seen undocked dobes that have a low tailset and they look awful.  Time will tell how breeders take this forward.

Edited to add - the tails are certainly not curly. so 'curl up' might not help.  They are help high and resemble a 'C' shape if that helps.

For me a Dobe will only look right if the tail is carried low, not quite as low as a greyhound but out and down.  The standard says the tail should Be continuation of the spine?  so it never did call for a high set even though handlers always pushed the tail up.

Tail
Previously customarily docked.
Docked: Docked at 1st or 2nd joint. Appears to be a continuation of spine without material drop.
Undocked: Appears to be a continuation of spine without material drop, or slightly raised when the dog is moving.

Saw Spanish pups yesterday and they were all over their backs.  One that we thought was a full tail, I think is a vetebrae short as his doesn't look like it's going to curl at the end!!  One of the boys had a really long tail. 

I've seen a dobie with a tail like a staffy, held low with a slight curl at the end, I think the breed standard says resembling a pump handle.  It was lovely, but have seen others like you say with a tail like a high C and have felt that it looks like a cross breed.  I suppose we all have our own preferences but it looks like a might have to wait for a repeat mating of a litter that meet my criteria - including tails.