Hi

I am a bit OCD now , keep checking it and and worrying. The vet though said it was nothing to worry about but you do don't you!

And i have done some reading on it which i think some times makes it worse !

Shes happy and eating well and digging up my garden

no dont worry!!!  just keep a check on it thats all. keep in conatct with vet and if concerned phone them up, dont get ocd like im as I worry about all sorts of silly things without reason....

> I too wont be joining the KC Acc Scheme as there is no limit to the amount of litters people can produce and as said earlier puppy farmers can and have joined.

Well there is the same limit on the number of litters as there is with any KC egistered bitch, if  you mean per bitch, and if you mean per breeder then that depends if they are licensed breeders or not - max of 4 per year if not licensed.

The best way to clear puppy farmers out of the ABS is to report them to the scheme!  IF you have hard evidence that anyone is contravening the scheme, then report them.  As with all things Kennel Club they rely on the breeders/exhibitors etc to police their schemes.  They might not act fast, but as published in dog press a couple ofweeks ago quite a few breeders have been removed from the ABS.

> I'd have thought that, as the KC is a private club, they can make whatever rules they like. They can change the rules for entry to shows as they see fit; likewise I'd imagine they can change

They have done this over the last few years with the limit on number of litters and the age restrictions, also some health tests too like the one for CLAD in Irish Setters.  there is nothing to stop them from making health tests and adherence to certain standards mandatory.

Also plenty of other KC have such rules in place including other EEC member states.

Hello ...yes there is a limit of how many puppy litters you can regisiter a year. It is 4 and after that you have to have a dog breeding license from you council.....

I really wish the KClub would do more to explain . Like most of you I would like to know how many puppy farms they have pushed out and how many bad breeders have been given 'notices to improve'.
Yes they are bring in DNA and mandatory health checks but maybe they are delaying to get more people on board before they change the rules. Like me I am a AB and about to have alitter. Both parents HAVE to have the reccommended tests (yes why insist if they are only reccommended!) and the dad to be has to be given a DNA swab as he is not microchipeed. These DNA results ill becme mandatory too.....(look ut for a new thread I have a story about this). These expectatins are fine by me but or some who register the extra cost my put them off.

I thought long and hard about joining and listened to all the debates and reasons. But I could not find a reason why not if I was doing already what they asked for. Because I am a member I can prove that I abide with what they say and atually do more. I await the day when all the puppy farms have gone....for good.
We could discuss this forever as i think there is alot of mis information out there too...come on KC get some facts and figures out!

> But I could not find a reason why not if I was doing already what they asked for.

I am the opposite, I don't see why I should have to pay for a scheme where I am proving that I do at least less than my own bred clubs code of ethics demands.

Like with having to pay extra for pedigrees instead of them being part of the registration certificate, paying a yearly affix maintenance fee, high costs of health tests, it seems that the good breeder is supposed to subsidise and give credibility to the ones who do not put themselves out.

>I am the opposite, I don't see why I should have to pay for a scheme where I am proving that I do at least less than my own bred clubs code of ethics demands.

I agree. Now if the KC made registration from non-ABs more expensive than for ABs then there might be a point to it.

Didn't the KC try a two-tier registration scheme back in the mid- to late-70s for a couple of years? A Basic register (for all) and an Active register (if you wanted to show or breed)? I think it proved unworkable.

> i am looking around for FAR in the future and i have not even been looking at breeders who are marked ABS, as i understand it mroe often than not abs= puppy farmer

Wow, that is a pretty sweeping statement!  You honestly believe that of that of the approx 2000 (I think) breeders who have signed up to the scheme THE MAJORITY are puppy farmers!  Leaving aside that your remark is highly offensive to the hundreds of good and ethical breeders who have joined the scheme because they believe firmly in health testing and identification of registered animals, do you have any evidence or personal experience to back up your claim?

When posting here it is important to remember that this is an open forum, and lots of people drop in and out to get guidance and info. To suggest that they steer clear of all ABS members is, in my opinion, very bad advice. With the ABS it is unfortunate that there is a possibility of some less than ideal breeders having signed up to the scheme, the growth of the scheme, which now includes inspections, will hopefully weed them out.   I personally don't have any knowledge of any of them, but am going by anecdotal reports in the Dog Press and postings on here.  However I have never heard anyone else claim that the MAKORITYof ABS breeders are bad breeders.

Perhaps, to back up your claim, you could post details of the vast number of puppy farm breeders you have personally come across who are members of the ABS (without going into the particulars of names as that could expose both yourself and admin to legal action), or could give instances of cases you know about which has lead you to this belief?

Do you think that the puppy farms could be long gone off the scheme after 2 years? I am sure the KC will have already got rid of these....BUT the reason for not joining still seems to be the PUPPY farm issue. It is like a urban myth that everyone believes and we actualy have no proof of it. I am sure there have been some on scheme...are they still on though?????

Do you think that the reason for some breeders not joining maybe because they have more than 4 litters a year and do not have a licence to breed from their local council. I know of one that has had 4 litters from 4 different bitches already his year....she'll never join......

Then there is still the argument, already mentioned, that if we do not let the KC regulate us (the honest, thougtful , hobby or show breeder) then the Bl***y governement will !

HANANIAH

I live in Oldham and if you have 3 breeding bitches living in your home you have to have a licence, each council is different so must be checked.

linda

sorry gwen, your right it was a very sweeping statement and reconsidering it i shouldn't have typed it. my apologies for offending people, it wasn't my intention. my only defence is tiredness at time of writing and not really considering what i was putting down, my apologies again.

i can;t cite you exmaples, this was simply the (probably very generalised) impression i got from people, i would say however that many previous discussions on the forum have also provided that impression.

i think that the idea of the abs is a wonderful concept, the only trouble is it seems to provide a certain level of kudos for no reason that is often misused by those who do not merit it. were the scheme what many others have said they'd like it to be (absolute set in stone testing requirments, in depth inspections and so on) i think it would be wonderful. in fact i believe it would really help put an end to the vile practise of puppy farming.

again, i'm sorry for any offense

> then the Bl***y governement will !

i don't think a legal regulation would be a bad thing HOWEVER the system would have to be developed by those intimately involved with the dog world not simply by government officials- look how well they did on the dda!

the government do seem to be taking this into consideration though and have been consulting with the KC, the police etc about changes to current legislation which is a vast improvement

> They have been inspecting for about 2 years now - although not as yet every breeder registered on the scheme.

Out of interest - how much notice do they give?  I realise that if they just turn up on the doorstep people may not be in, but if they give too much notice it gives people time to 'tidy up' - spot inspections would probably be more use.

And ROFL at Marianne and the lots of poo. :-D

Hi gwen, well 4 is too much for me, my limit is 3 from a bitch so the KC Scheme doesnt meet my standards lol

> well 4 is too much for me, my limit is 3 from a bitch so the KC Scheme doesnt meet my standards lol

Actually the KC "per bitch"limit is 6 - nothing to do with the ABS, just the standard rule. Not recomended, just maximum can be registered to a bitch.  The number 4 I referred to is the basic number of litters PER YEAR per breeder household before a Licence is required from the Local Authorit - although as pointed out in another post, LAs are allowed to interpret the rules as they see fit, and can judge just who is a commercial breeder even if less litters are bred.

the KC doesn't stop unlicensed breeders from registering more than 4 litters a year as you might think.  I always thought the reason they asked if you had a breeding license was to do this,a nd to ensure the 12 months between litters rule, but it seems they don't.

A poster on this site brought it to their attention that several bitches owned by a breeder had litters just five months apart and also registered well over four litters in just one quarter, so pretty obvious.

Is there a limit to the number of litters and ABS member can register?

> Is there a limit to the number of litters and ABS member can register?

No, not as far as I am aware, just the regular regulations.

> the KC doesn't stop unlicensed breeders from registering more than 4 litters a year as you might think.

Someone I know queried this with the KC a while ago, and was told something along the lines of they can only act on this following info. that Local Authority regulations have been proved to have been broken, as when querying copmlaints with breeders about number of litters, various reasons can make it appear this has been done when it has not, eg. co-owned litters born at other addresses, and the "rolling" 12 month period which licensing requirement is based on (ie it is not Jan to Dec) - they can't enforce LA rules, but perhaps this should be put into KC rules, that if you breed more than 4 litters in a year then you must have a licence before bing able to register, and then the 12 month between litters KC rule does come into force.

The breeding and sale of dogs welfare act includes litters bred in partnership and terms, so any breeder going over the four regardless of where the pups are born.  All litters at their won premises (regardless of ownership being different members of the family for example, or ones breed elsewhere but under the breeders name.

So really as soon as a fifth litter in any rolling 12 moths is registered it should flag up.

the case our poster queried with KC was more than 4 litters in just one quarter.

> the case our poster queried with KC was more than 4 litters in just one quarter.

Wish I could remember more of the conversation I was having, just remember the bits posted above.  Do you know what the KC regulation actually is on this point?  I know there is the bit to tick if you are licensed, but not needing a license I have never paid too much attention to the ins and outs of the requirments from then on.  I also find that info. form the KC can vary quite widely, depending on who you end up with on the phone!

I am like you I thought the box to tick was there so that the KC could see copy of License and check that the number of litters etc was within terms of the License.  I was shocked to realise it meant no such thing and that the KC did not ensure registrations complied with the law of the land.

My Local Authority expects all dog breeders who have 5 litters in any 12 months to be licensed as a breeder. They then hae to comply with inspections etc.

The ABS complies with the same rules laid down by the KC. These are policed and if any ABS member breaks these they are de-registered.

Some people have talked about ABS members who have broken these rules. I guess a ABS member who is chucked off is never going to admit it to anyone.

> My Local Authority expects all dog breeders who have 5 litters in any 12 months to be licensed as a breeder. They then hae to comply with inspections etc

That is the law of the land, but some LA's impose stricter rules and will require people who breed less or have had licenses in the past, but wouldn't need one under the new law to still have a License.

I know my mentor never needed a License but had one anyway as in the past it only cost a few quid and saved the grey area of what was a breeding bitch and what wasn't.  The old rules were about owning more than two breeding bitches (what is a breeding bitch, one that has been bred from?, a bitch that simply is entire but may never be bred from?, one that is retired from breeding but still entire?).  She only ever bred once or twice a year or sometimes not at all.

Other breeders of this have been caught up by their council deeming them as commercial and needing a License,a nd all that goes with it, which doesn't really apply to the occasional hobby breeder.

phew 6!!!! thats shocking considering most bitches shouldnt be bred from till they are 2 = and to think they might be having litter when they are 8 is not nice from my point of view.... mind you those who churn them out must be greatful...

The Maximum number of litters and the minimum and maximum age rules give 7 years in which to have the litters, just about feasible if you start at a year.

The kennel club set these limits to take into account all breeds.  for example a toy breed could well be bred from at a year old and if only having singleton pups may well be acceptable to have up to 6 litters.

Breed clubs for each breed should have a code of ethics, as the kennel club asked all breed clubs to draw one up (preferably that applied across all the clubs for that breed) a few years ago.

I know that in many medium size breeds a minimum age of 18 months or two years is given and many of the  breeds would consider a maximum of 3 or four litters acceptable.

Certainly in my breed it is four litters, and the only time I know anyone to take That number of litters from one bitch is if the litters have been small.

Most breeders will breed two to three litters from a bitch producing quality pups.