It is fact that Rabies shows up in a dog  2-3 weeks after the vaccine is administrated.

What about that case years ago where a dog developed rabies AFTER having been released from the full 6 months in quarantine? Can't remember where it was now, somewhere in Surrey?

I'm surprised anybody would put a puppy through quarantine these days when there is no need -everyone I know that have imported have simply paid somebody abroad to keep the dog for the extra months required. The only trouble there is making sure you find somebody that WILL socialise the dog, but in any event it should have more socialisation than a dog in quarantine.

We imported our boy in Jan 2002, before the PET Travel Scheme was available.  The other male I mentioned came in with his sister in 1992.

If the quality of the socialisation or willingness of someone to have the dog is a problem Quarantine will enable you to build a relationship with the pup, and of course they will be released by 8 1/2 to 9 months as opposed to the 10 months minimum, if they pass the titre test first time around.

My youngster who was conceived in Finland from two Rabies vaccinated parents has failed her titre test.  I was unwilling to have her have a  second Rabies shot so soon so will wait until she is older, as I am unlikely to travel with her for at least another year or two years

I really do not understand the thinking behind the 6 months waiting period after the successful titre test, as no retest is done to ensure the levels are still high?????

> i have more coming to me

but I understand that you already have six. How many more do you want/need?

Or is it a case that these dogs trainable, dutiful, and responsible, with impressive capabilities as a guardian of family and property, but aggressive only in defense of these. They are friendly and relaxed until the need arises to defend their own are destined to take over from the rottweilers, pit bulls and staffie crosses that are equally 'trainable, dutiful and responsible' when in the right hands, but become a nightmare when owned by the wrong people. I'm sure the OP believes that s/he is more than capable and will train their own dogs properly, but with so many apparently arriving in the UK, I can't help wondering how long it will be before one gets into the wrong hands and becomes 'aggressive' in defence of his own space (as the OP has already sadly witnessed with a dog that didn't receive optimum training as a young puppy). Sadly I can already see the "bulldog kills toddler" headline and the consequent backlash against our British variety - one of the nicest and softest breeds around.

The same is already happening with American Bulldogs, with one very publicly being shown having to be Put To Sleep after 'It's me or the Dog' program.

Do we really need more macho breeds being imported to the UK?

please would you stop being so dramatic?

> oh and Rach85,  NO that does not mean I'm going to beat him..  lol).

seriously whats the need for that?

i did not say i agreed with your methods actually, thats a very selective interpretation of what i said- i believe i emphasied that i do believe some of the pack theories, purely to the extent that i do believe in a hierarchy within the home. i certainly don't EVER even attempt to alpha roll my dogs as frankly it would be bloody stupid of me and asking for accidentally getting knocked out as they paniced.

> DONT JUMP ON ME GUYS.. you said mate!
>

i didn't say mate i said guys (??), do you mean "you said it mate"? well first off the only people i have ever had call me mate were trying to start something so would you please chill once again... this comment was made in a jokey way to the other regular posters on the forum, who i presumed to take it as such.

> like someone else has said its done in a way that is very subtle, through playing

i said that and it is a method that works (my bf is doing it right now with the boy we might be getting form my parents :)). and from what you said in all your orignal posts it CERTAINLY didn't seem like that was the tactic you were using, from what you described it sounded as if your techniques were very rough and hence you recieved the reaction you did.

> I have owned large bulldog breeds my whole life I am most certainly not cruel

what you said before sounded a lot like it which is why everyone bristled at you. i certainly hope you didn't raise bullbreeds like that for the rest of your life or else i'd be deeply surprised you;ve not had a bite before now

>imagine your dog accidently picks up a big bit of coocked chicken when your out on a walk, if you have never practiced taken food from your dog, you now have a problem,

I've never had to remove food from my dogs mouth.I trained the "drop it" command,although thinking about it i cant fully remember how i did it :-o Most probably by removing it from their mouths as i said "drop it" Duh! Nevertheless,they will instantly drop anything i ask them to,whether it be a decayed piece of food found on a walk or a prized treat at home.

As for never putting a dog in quarantine again,i cant say i blame you.I couldn't do it,it would do my head and heart in.6mths of solitary confinement must be hellish for those poor dogs,especially young pups :(

I've had to remove food from my dog as he was chocking on it. The drop command wouldn't work as the food was stuck in his troat. I am so glad he is used to me taking food from him.

Sometimes you need to be physically able take something from a dog, it is a lot easier/safer to to if the dog is used to it. :)

>Sometimes you need to be physically able take something from a dog, it is a lot easier/safer to to if the dog is used to it.

Absolutely - and it's something you train gradually, not by using force.

>It is fact that Rabies shows up in a dog  2-3 weeks after the vaccine is administrated

The blood sample for the titre test cannot be taken less than a month after the vaccine is administered or the result is invalid.

> As for never putting a dog in quarantine again,i cant say i blame you.I couldn't do it,it would do my head and heart in.6mths of solitary confinement must be hellish for those poor dogs,especially young pups :

It isn't ideal but my own expereinces of quarantine ahve been very positive considering, but it is a lot ow work.

Puppies actualy cope far better than adults as they have not ahd any different life.

The trick is to minismise the effects that reduced socialisation may have.

The breeeder of pour pusp did as much socialisation as humanly possible in the pusp first 9 weeks of life,a dn selected the -pup that seemed most able to cope.  I am sure breed makes a difference as you need a fairly self reliant and bold type to easily ahdnle the remedial work with training once they come out.

Our boy was at a show showing 3 days out of quarantine.  It was a large busy Open show with benches left up for exhibitors use from the champ shwo the previous day.  so ti was possible to swocialise him to benching, people and other dogs all in one go, and if he hadn't coped well then it was easy enough to remove him to a comfortable distance.

((((I've had to remove food from my dog as he was chocking on it. The drop command wouldn't work as the food was stuck in his troat. I am so glad he is used to me taking food from him.

Sometimes you need to be physically able take something from a dog, it is a lot easier/safer to to if the dog is used to it. ))))

I've always taught the drop command, never taken food from a dog ever to practise with as I've pointed out in a previous post I see no point in it and to this day I still do not see the need to have to practise such a thing. I'm sure over many centuries dog owners have also not thought that they must practise taking food from a dogs mouth incase they need to remove food in an emergency.

Unless a dog has a very dodgy temperament I've never known one to bite it's owner if the owner needs to remove a bad food from it's mouth, or indeed if it were choking. There is something called trust between a dog and it's owner, your dog is not going to bite you when you put your hand in it's mouth, unless it is untrustworthy or extremely nervous to start with. Then perhaps techniques like this may be useful.

I'm sure that 95% of dog owners on this forum can happily put their hand in their dogs mouth and remove something, without having to have practised it over a period of time. Why on earth should your dog bite you?

Maybe there are a lot of very unbalanced dogs around or owners with no faith in their animals? :-(

> Do we really need more macho breeds being imported to the UK?

i've no problem with the import of new breeds but i share your concern about where they end up... to be honest though there are plenty of breeds here already that can be ill handled with terrible concequences, not importing them won't solve the general problem, they'll just pick something else :(

its why we need serious licencing laws etc

Carrington -
A dog doesn't need to have a 'dodgy tempermant' to bite if you took something out of his mouth. Food is a naturally a highly prized resource for most dogs, it is not unusual for a dog to feel the need to guard it's food, this is especially true for a guarding breed.

> Maybe there are a lot of very unbalanced dogs around or owners with no faith in their animals

You pointed out that 95% of people on this forum don't take thier dogs food away, so I can only assume that this comment was directed at me.

> Why on earth should your dog bite you?

My dog WONT bite me over his food, I don't have 'faith' in this, I KNOW that he will not bite me, he has proved this to me repeatedly.

Maybe the fact than many have blind faith in thier dogs is the reason so many people get bitten.

Faith, is the belief in something without proof. I am not prepared to leave my animals behaviour (emphesis on ANIMAL as people often forget this part) down to faith.  I KNOW my dog will not bite to protect his food because I take food from him routinely and he proves to me he is fine in this situation, I will not leave it to chance & hope he knows for sure that I am 'trustworthy' around his food. Dog's, as you have pointed out are animals, they learn to trust us though our interactions with them, and learn to accept regular experiences. If they aren't used to something, by thier very nature they can bite out of instinct, not lack of trust.

If done in the right way, removal of a dogs food teaches it that it's acceptable, it is the recomended method to make sure your dog doesn't start food guarding (or to get a dog out of food guarding).

I will do whatever I can to make sure that I KNOW my dog is going to act in a desired manner, in as many different situations as possible, rather than leave it all down to trust, I don't care that I may be in the minority with this technique and good on you for those that don't feel the need to use this technique. My 8 month old puppy allready weighs as much as me, he is a gurding breed,  I don't want to leave any room for doubt over possible food guarding issues.

This is the method I would rather use, everybody has the right to choose what works for them.

Astarte
here here :)  the breed of a dog is not the problem, it's the fact that irresposible people can legally own one. Any breed of dog could can be dangerous in the wrong hands.
I agree- serious licencing laws would help solve a lot of problems and if implemented with compulsory identifcation for every dog it may also help limit all the dogs that get abbandoned and make it tougher for irresponsible breeders. The dangerous dogs act is not enough and it places emphasis on the dogs not the owners as being the problem.

CARRINGTON: QUOTE>>> Unless a dog has a very dodgy temperament I've never known one to bite it's owner if the owner needs to remove a bad food from it's mouth, or indeed if it were choking. There is something called trust between a dog and it's owner, your dog is not going to bite you when you put your hand in it's mouth, unless it is untrustworthy or extremely nervous to start with. Then perhaps techniques like this may be useful<<<

Carrington and for those that do not believe in the pack theories what you obviously dont understand is that you (carrington) and the so called "95%" of this forum have already established pack leadership amoung your dogs enabling you to do take anything from their mouth.. funnily enough all my dogs are the same, you'll find this takes time, I practise taking the food from my dog early. it instills the whole point of feeding and that is the fact he or she is "invited" to eat by you and not to help its self..  its obvious that you have established "pack hiearchie"  by total accident and have learned nothing from it! Gaurding breeds infact all breeds if not taught correctly will gaurd their food instinctively and lash out at anyone trying to take it, this is proven from puppyhood!  My OP stated me taking my dog in questions  food and toys.. this was written stupidly on my behalf, it was only written to describe my dog is not aggressive or protective and that he doesn't bite out of defense.

Astarte
when we frist imported I had no plan to breed. my partner and I  lived and worked with this breed in america long before it was imported I bought our first in 2004 we imported more through PETS. I love this breed and will never own another.   I live and work on a farm i bought with my partner, we train our dogs in obedience agility some dogs we train in weight pull. I like a loyal, bold, working utility dog... each to their own.
, I couldn,t careless what people and the media say about bull breeds,  frankly any large dog can be dangerous in the wrong hands! All of my lot are fantastically behaved. 

Since importing my dogs have had alot of intrest in the UK and Europe, I have a planned breeding that is almost totally sold out to vetted famillies. when we do breed, puppies will be sold with strict contracts and breeding restrictions to ensure the welfare of the individual pup and to ensure the dog is not  bred from , sold on, or mistreated, hopefully this will lessen the chance of the breed to get into the wrong hands!!

Gaurding breeds infact all breeds if not taught correctly will gaurd their food instinctively and lash out at anyone trying to take it, this is proven from puppyhood!  

I think some people spend too long with their heads in books reading about pack theory. What a load of poppycock. If not taught correctly :-D

I've trained guarding breeds as well as gundogs, infact well over 30 pups and dogs and I'm sure there are many who have trained well over that on the forum with 30+ years experience, never had the need to use any of these methods and never had any dog, food resource guard or attempt to bite me or anyone else.

I have to say I get some real belly laughs from this forum and the long winded explanations at how some people train their dogs. :-D

ASTARTE: QUOTE>> "please would you stop being so dramatic?"

> oh and Rach85,&nbsp; NO that does not mean I'm going to beat him..&nbsp; lol).

seriously whats the need for that? <<<

I'm not sure why Racheal would exagerate like she has!
here are a few way unfairly dramatized quotes from Rach85 before you have a poke at me!!!

RACH85 QUOTE>>"imagine if you had just come out of jail and someone started rolling you over, taking your toys and your food all in one swoop? <<

-------------------------------------------------------

>>"Also you say you have 6 dogs and no 'NO' or 'OI'will get them to stop, seems like none of your dogs respond to your training what so ever, so it cant be working can it????"<<

--------------------------------------------------------

>>It is bordering on cruelty ........and the fact you own 7 apparantly and you love this technique so much you would do it to a 6 months old scared puppy is so worrying.........even ceaser millan wont do it to puppies........ horrible<<

-------------------------------------------------------------

Rach85 told a moderator she gave me only nice helpfull friendly advice.. she has done nothing but the opposite.. here is that post Quote

---------------------------------------------------------------

>>We have all offered kind advice and help, but the replies we have got from this person is simply HE is right and WE are wrong.

People like this wont take advice even when it is thrown at them by all directions, so you reach the point where you try to stop rather then help im afraid."<<<

i don't think her comments were particularly over dramatised actually, she was using a creative style i;d admit but frankly from the info provided it seems merited. anyway, the forum is not ment to be for bitching about other peoples writing styles, i was simply asking you to please calm down as this certianly is not addressing your issues.

> We have all offered kind advice and help, but the replies we have got from this person is simply HE is right and WE are wrong.
> People like this wont take advice even when it is thrown at them by all directions, so you reach the point where you try to stop rather then help im afraid."<<<

shes right though! you were offered advise, as requested, and you kind of blew up at everyone who disagreed with your methods (i.e. everyone). the forum to to discuss things, different methods etc. frankly i'd be thinking in your position, "ok, what i've done CLEARLY isn't working, maybe i should listen to these folk, some of whom have had the same quarantine situation (e.g. barbara) and have not just had a chunk taken out of them"

i think you were scared and upset by what happened (who wouldn't be? i'd have been devestated if any of mine did this) and it presented itself as defensiveness on here which when started is difficult to alter the path of. shall we start over again?

if you genuinely agree with your usual methods explain calmly and we can all discuss it. however in this case its not worked so maybe consider changing the way you train for this dog compared to the others- they are individuals so sometimes need different things.

someone was telling me to tell my dog "oi" or "behave" to get him to stop an undesired behaviour.. I said "you have to be joking, you come to my kennels and tell my dog(in question) "oi" or "behave" and see no effect".. This dog does not respond to traditional training methods, and he/she wanted me to say oi or no at 3 days of having him!!
i was obviously stating how this "no" or "behave" would not work with one of my dogs considering everything he has gone through this can be expected.
yet rach85 just changes it all to suit her and make me look bad, i'm open to any sensible opinion but when someone attacks me its hard not to get offended
if you had read my posts  you would have noted that Rach85 tells  pure lies,

i've capital letters rach85s exaggerations of my text

QUOTE>>>>Its CRUEL the way you have taken this pup from his mother, CHUCKED him in quarentine and then got him only to be completely what a bullbreed doesnt need a CHALLENGER in a UNPOSITIVE way.
You shouild think of owning another breed if you find it so hard to have a good bullbreed and not have to DOMINATE IT EVERY CHANCE YOU GET
Also you say you have 6 dogs and NO  'no' or 'oi'  WILL GET THEM TO STOP, seems like NONE OF YOUR DOGS RESPOND TO YOUR TRAINING WHAT SO EVER, so it cant be working can it????, <<<

That is quite obviously  a big dramatisation, if you have read my posts!

i have read your posts and i don;t feel a lot of rachaels comments were that exaggerating. an oi or off etc will generally get through to my dogs unless its very serious indeed which is extemely unusual. from what you said initially it seemed that this comment

> what a bullbreed doesnt need a CHALLENGER in a UNPOSITIVE way

was perfectly valid. i'll give you quarantine being "cruel" and "chucked", you've already said you regret that and legal practise isn't your fault.

as i said previously though can we leave the samantics and and get back to the issue? you and rachael don't like each other, fine. i don't think shes posted on this thread for a while so can we leave this?

> A dog doesn't need to have a 'dodgy tempermant' to bite if you took something out of his mouth

no but i'd be very very shocked if a well tempremented dog who was properly trained did... they'd be straight own the vets if they were mine asking what possible physical issue there was. well trained dogs simply do not "bite the hand that feeds them" unless something is done wrong by the feeder or if the animal has a problem (probably a pain issue etc) that has effected temprement dramatically (i.e. not food issue, but the softest dog we ever had was our old mastiff odin- he nearly bit my arm one day but we were cleaning an extremely badly infected ear at the time and he was in agony, he went to bite but stopped himself just before connecting because it was just not in him to hurt someone, despite the fact that i was really hurting him at the time- for his own good mind! was still horrid to do :()

> Astarte
> here here :-)&nbsp; the breed of a dog is not the problem, it's the fact that irresposible people can legally own one. Any breed of dog could can be dangerous in the wrong hands.
>

yes! its just that big ones can do more damage...all dogs should be properly licenced

> The dangerous dogs act is not enough

thats cause its rubbish :)

also out of interest is that the correct spelling for the breed in your name or is it alphalpha? just i tried googling to have a look at a pic of one but nothing came up :( do you have a photobucket or anything? from the few things i coudl find it said they were similar to american bulldogs?

Alapaha Blueblood info

aww, thats gorgeous!

> I have a planned breeding that is almost totally sold out to vetted famillies. when we do breed, puppies will be sold with strict contracts and breeding restrictions to ensure the welfare of the individual pup and to ensure the dog is not&nbsp; bred from , sold on, or mistreated, hopefully this will lessen the chance of the breed to get into the wrong hands!!

Good to hear - but will the people that you sell your pups to be quite as careful and responsible as you are?

I still cannot see why you would need to import so many. This country is too small and too overcrowded to support a large population of guarding breeds. This breed may have had a valuable role to play in the plantations of South Georgia (defending the 'massa' from those horrible slaves, perhaps???) but what possible use can it be here in the UK?

There seem to be several different types, some more 'bulldoggy' than others.

to be fair though you can say that about most breed lincolnimp- i wouldn;t get rid of my lot cause i don;t have land and game to look after from poachers!

I think this post has gone way off track form it's original purpose.

The OP was asking for help regarding a puppies agressive outburst on 1 occasion, after only being with the person for 3 days.

It boils down to this - the puppy has not had enough socilisation (not getting at the OP here, the puppy was in quarantine and obviusly this did not suit him, some pups need a lot more socializing than others).
The puppy acted agressively after it was attacked by another pup, the OP steppen in and got bitten.

The fact that the OP believes in taking his/hers dogs food away really doesn't enter the equasion, even the most well behaved dog that doesn't have it's food removed, will act instinctively when in the midst of a brawl with another dog, let alone a puppy that has only been in the home for 3 days with inadequate socialisation.

The biggest mistake the OP made was to intervene in the fight the way they did, but this is easy to say with hindsight. Once both puppies have recieved a lot more socialisation and feel settled in thier home the situation that led to this incident is not likely to happen again regardless of weather the OP decides to remove thier dogs food.

There is enough combined experience on this forum for some constructive advice to be given, to help the OP with the socialisation that these pups need.

ASTARTE
"the bigger dogs can do more damage" - that is very true, 1 bite from a large powerfull dog can do a lot more damage than a physco 'tea-cup' breed :( . I also think the DDA is rubbish, but it is a start, at least the government recognise there is an issue that needs addressing, so far I think they have gone about it the wrong way though :(

> a physco 'tea-cup' breed

lol you'll be getting yelled at by the little dog people :P but no, i do see your point, never a bother with my lot but i;ve been bitten by a mini poodle :(

the dda doesn;t address any of the issues, it addressed a media frenzie and no actual issues- even before they were banned how many folk in the uk had a dogo argentino? its a useless document and addresses nothing that needs done. i think serious licencing, which skin as i am i'd happily pay!, controls over breeding (not super strict-we should all still be allowed to breed, but serious limits and a need to prove conditions for the dogs involved (it would put so many people off by having to make an official appointment wouldn't it?). i also think that training classes as a requirement wouldn't be a bad idea but very hard to enforce.

> i wouldn;t get rid of my lot cause i don;t have land and game to look after from poachers!

I have grand estates for my Mastiff to protect & I take him to battles every Thursday, if we're not busy in the ring with lions ;)

This is a joke, I do not agree with animal baiting of any kind, my dog does not battle & I live in a 3 bed terraced house :)

lol pml... and how are the battles going? have you ousted those pesky Romans yet?

We're holding our own with the Romans :) lol, I'm glad you found that funny :)  (I was worried it wouldn't come accross very well)

too late to edit my last post but yes, I mean no offence when I said phsyco tea-cup breed :(

You're right the DDA, it is a knee-jerk reaction to media hype. The issues are irresponsible ownership & breeding, (I'm not getting at breeders on this forum), it is far to easy to breed/buy  dogs/puppies. I am new to Mastiffs, my pup is my first, but there is nothing stopping me (other than my common sense) from buying another, mating them and selling the pups to all & sundry.

I always tend to be on the skint side of life too, but would readily pay a licencing fee. I have fallen in love with the molossers, but irresponsible owners risk them & other powerfull breeds being banned :( Something needs to be done that will protect the allready-responsible owners, all the dogs destined for irresponsible owners & the public at risk from those dogs.

Compulsory triaining would be a good idea, they manage to ensure that drivers recieve training before being allowed on the road even to the point of a 'theory test'. If people were made to take a theory test (as regards to responsible dog ownership & training), before being allowed to own a dog, that alone would filter out some of the idiots. Cars are policed via thier registration numbers -  if dogs had to be identified via a chip or tattoo, then all data regarding any compulsory training could be held under that dogs ID along with the owners info.

Trouble is Mastiffs and Bullmastiffs are - or should be - inherently stable in temperament. I saw some of these Alpaha Bulldogs at a Rare Breed show in the US a few years ago, and even with their supposedly responsible owners one or two were distincly 'iffy'. Just looking at them, you can see straight away that they will appeal to the same sort of idiots that kept pit bulls and Staffie crosses as status symbols. Yes it's a shame that the responsible owners get tarred with the same brush, but I still question why someone who says that originally they had no plans to breed would need six of them. how many litters are they going to breed - and can they really find responsible caring homes for all the pups? Bearing in mind, of course, that this breed isn't recognised by the KC, so there is no way people can check health testing, numbers of litters born, and so on.

couldn;t agree more :)

that is a huge number to have if you cannot show and don't intend breeding.

i can see them appealing to the 'moron set' as a recent news article described such owners

> Trouble is Mastiffs and Bullmastiffs are - or should be - inherently stable in temperament. I saw some of these Alpaha Bulldogs at a Rare Breed show in the US a few years ago, and even with their supposedly responsible owners one or two were distincly 'iffy'.

fair enough, though as we all know, "tis deed not breed" (does her school teacher face lol), but if there are still certain traits present in the breed they will take very very careful breeding to reduce them.

I'm closing this now as it's wandered considerably off topic.