We have all offered kind advice and help, but the replies we have got from this person is simply HE is right and WE are wrong.

People like this wont take advice even when it is thrown at them by all directions, so you reach the point where you try to stop rather then help im afraid.

I have already replied in the nicest way but been told to grow up by this person as my theory about good training is nothing good compared to thie method of domination, sad really that good advice is thrpwn back in your face and the dog continues to suffer.

constructive conversation or behaviour is a 2 way street.

I would just like to add for the dogs benefit why his behaviour is like this.

He has been in almost total isolation for 6 months, everything he has been given in his kennel has been his, no-one has ever taken it away, no-one has ever dominated him, or needed to.

The only dog interaction he has had is other dogs barking, howling, growling in other kennels, he has not been allowed to mix with them or socialise in any way,

He has no idea how to behave with other dogs, he has no doggie manners, he does not know if he is to be aggressive and protective, or welcoming.

The bitch that he passed in the kennel is no different to the other dogs in kennels throughout his life, he has no socialising skills and most probably wanted to show authority before she did, he may have had many dogs lurching and snarling at him when out on his walks at the quarantine.  He has a lot to learn, he needs kindness and comfort and most of all positive reactions from people and dogs.

I'm going to do my best not to judge you by your posts so far as they have come across hostile whether you have meant them to or not, sometimes people find it hard to come across well in writing and are great face to face.  I also do think you must know your breed well, not many people will go to the trouble of importing a dog and putting it into quarantine without going to the trouble of buying from a good breeder and knowing the stock which is why I have not discounted him as a potential stud at present.

But........... your techniques are way off base, where you have learnt them from I don't know but please listen to us when we say all in one voice apparently that this is the wrong way to train this dog.

You can certainly turn him around, you can certainly have a brilliant dog, but at the moment he is void of socialising skills, he needs all the help you can give, no dominance, no Alpha rolls, kindness, reward, socialising with dogs and people and no taking anything from him, you can swap, but don't take, he does not need dominating, he needs love, lots and lots of love.

You will not need another form of protection as long as you have a Alapaha Blue Blood Bulldog around.

Not knowing anything about this breed I did an internet search and came up with this site http://www.alapahaconnectionkennel.com

I wouldn't presume to comment on your training methods, although they do seem fairly OTT to me - but why on earth would you want to import seven of these "intelligent, possessive, protective and defensive" dogs into the UK? Don't we have enough problems already with unsuitable breeds sold to inadequate owners?

Seems its a trait of his/her dogs tho doesnt it :(
This person said that if you were to go to their kennel, no simple word command would work. Seems like all of the dogs have behavourial problems from what has been posted, maybe because they have all been 'alpha rolled'.

I just hope that this person sees sense with this poor little boy, if these behaviours arent fixed, theres no way the dog should be allowed to stud.

Edited - Just seen the above post, no wonder you were bitten if you were trying to alpha roll that breed of dog, what did you expect?
This person really worries me.

>sibling rivalry my friend

Strange, haven't seen it in the related dogs and bitches I know who have been kept together???   and dogs don't know that their sister is 'out of bounds'  they will still try to mate her when she's receptive and pester her when she's not, which is why they get 'told off' by the bitch.  It's more likely that he doesn't have a clue how to relate to other dogs or humans and your methods of controlling him aren't exactly helping him, merely convincing him that he must defend himself at all costs :(

TBH the most helpful thing for you at the moment would be to have an open mind.  We are not the ones with an aggressive dog which has put us in hospital (several of the posters have large breeds.)  I wonder why that is?   Could it be because the methods you so disparage actually work?

The ABBB is athletic, intelligent, possessive, protective and defensive.
They are the "down to earth" dog for the family and are excellent with children and other animals.


Just to balance that argument from the same site, they are good family, child and animal dogs. I particularly like the fact that they are said to be good with other animals.

Many breeds can be described as protective and possessive from herding to guarding breeds. But all are only as good or bad as their trainer. :-)

>clairey please dont type pointless comments untill you have fully read what has been written! i no it was my choice and i whole heartly regreat the whole thing!

I did read it, every word, and my comment wasnt pointless, although to you whatever anyone says is pointless unless you are agreeing with it! you slagged off the system in this country, im just telling you that you had a choice and you chose quarantine.  Im sorry it didnt work out for you.

Well, from the behaviour described, I hope the OP doesn't have children :).

Many large guarding or bull breeds are great with kids - as long as they hav been properly trained and socialised. I askagain, why would anyone want to bring 7 of these dogs to the UK. I can understand maybe one, or perhaps 2, for someone who had a real interest in the breed and wanted a personal guard dog (???) - but 7!!!! Especially of a breed that is unrecognised by the KC, AKC or FCI

In reply to the original post:

I too believe in the pack theorie and believe that a dog should know who the boss/alpha is. My dogs do not think the 'alpha' roll is outdadted, they practice it all the time, albeit during play. But, I also respect the methods of other people.  I have a Mastiff (Old English), I wouldn't use the alpha roll on him, as one day he will realise he is stronger than me and it could back-fire big style!!!  I am not having a go at what you did, you acted in the moment and unfortunately it turned out badly. I also make a habbit of taking my Mastiffs food & toys off him, this isn't done to tease him, it is done to reinforce the fact that it's no big deal for somebody take something from him because he will get it back (therefore he has no reason to guard it).

I know nothing about your breed of dog or feel experienced enough to offer any advice. If you haven't found a behaviourist yet, make sure you find one that is used to a 'power breed'. A dog that has a history of fighting/gladiator in it's ancestory responds very differently to physical dominance.

The poor little lad is probably feeling rather unsettled at the moment and may well fell like he needs to 'step up his game' to cover up his insecurities (going with the wolf/pack theories of fear/insecureness is seen as a weakness and will be attacked).

I am sure that with patience, time and persistence thing will work out. I also hope you are recovering from your injuries.

Well, from the behaviour described, I hope the OP doesn't have children

I agree at present the dog should not be anywhere near children, but it sounds as though the OP is taking sensible precautions as the dog is kennelled along with the female at present.

To cut the OP some slack, the dog has only been in full possession for 6 days now, the training methods I hope will now change, and the OP is desperate to help this dog to be of good temperament as it should have been.  I can sense the anger from the OP due to the quarantine, (and perhaps it has been misdirected) there is nothing to be done about that now, what is done is done.

The only extra thing that I will add is that we all know I expect also the OP that the socialising window helps to mould a dog for life, if this dog can not be turned around in the next few months to be none aggressive to other dogs and people, the OP will have to make that choice of having the dog pts.  I can imagine if I had gone to all the trouble to get a good stud as the OP and it was turning out this way, how I would feel, I would be absolutely devastated, angry and beating myself up over having it quarantined.

I hope that the dog can be turned around, but I also hope the OP will do the right thing if it can't, as devastating as that would be.

The right behaviourist, will make all the difference to the outcome here, choose carefully.

Welcome to Champdogs Mastifflover. An excellent first post.

Tanks for the welcome :) I'll go & introduce myself on the 'general' board.

> he may have had many dogs lurching and snarling at him when out on his walks at the quarantine.

Just wanted to point out that in quarantine a dog will not have left his individual kennel at all during the six months except to be seen by the Vet,a nd then would not have seen other dogs, so he will have had zero socialisation and probably would not be tall enough to have even seen other dogs at a distance, only heard them.

when I visited our boy in quarantine I was locked in with him, and eh was never allowed across the threshold of his kennel.  In fact when he came out he would''t step across.

So this dogs situation is even less socialised.

Is the 'bulldog' an actual 100% bulldog as seen in the eyes of the KC? Or a cross bred/old tyme type bulldog?

Its just that, other than the type of training you use(each to their own, but this isnt the method I use), I have never heard of an agressive (to the point of causing such major wounds) purebred bulldog.

They are usually the most docile breed going, even the most 'uneducated' pups/adults dont normally exhibit such ferocity. Even if, i should imagine, they were subjected to 'Alpha rolls' and such like.

Seems very out of breed character. Should this sort of dog really be used on the basis of breeding?

> Alpha roll is a very effective form of dominance and should be used at the right time to help over come dominance in dogs along with other training techniques

as i understand it cesar milan recommends this technique for "red zone" dogs- until the big fight it doesn;t sound like your boy is one.

> "UN FUN" how old are you?
>

its really not about how old rachel is its about how old your BABY DOG is. he is still a pup, he needs love and care, not overt domination. even if he is an onlder pup physically he won;t be one mentally after 6 months in a cell! can i ask why you feel he needs such a full on type of training? he's been with you 3 days! thats no time whatsoever, even if you've > spent most of his wake hours socalizing with him and training him"

>

wow i've been lazy with my dogs over the years, expecting full training, even without the distress of quarantine, to take a few months at least.

i do have some faith in the pack style idea (don't jump on me guys!) but i don't believe in overt domination- first off attitude is everything (as milan also states i believe- his references to energy etc). why alpha roll when you can subtly establish authority through play? i get down and wrestle with my bullmastiffs for fun, they love it (i usually end up a bit bashed lol), during which i will make sure i rub the top of their necks or place my head on their neck (what might be considered a dominant action), but its done in a playful, subtle way- they playfully roll and they get their bellies and under their necks rubbed etc- they are in a weakend, subservient position but are there WILLINGLY because they respect me (and like tickles lol). honestly i think your rather rushing this and using a rather violent technique.

> again pack behaviour, why would you take something natural and replace it with a man made idea? Alpha dog does not get attacked, it will take the best sleeping quarters it will eat first. without bother, is this not how you want your dog and remember it is a dog and not a child! so Letitng him know toys are yours good: dominating by rolling over at the right time, like Caeser Millan = good!
>

i've never seen my dogs "alpha roll" each other, i;ve seen less dominat dogs willingly roll on to their backs during play, or pups do so to show respect to adults. i;ve also seen alphas do this though when relaxed. thus perhaps the "alpha roll", as coined by cesar milan, is a human idea

i think you need to learn patience with your dogs. honestly, we're not trying to gang up on you, but if everyone on here disagrees with your methods perhaps its worth heeding?

> this near adult dog

i thought we were discussing an 8 month old???

no where near adult!

>i recieved serious bite wounds, muscle damage and internal bleeding. he may be 8 months but he has the bite and drive to fight to the death!

This statement has me really worried. If you were taken to hospital with such serious damage why didn't the police get involved? Why hasn't the dog been removed while they undergo further investigation? This dog attacked you and under the DDA I would have thought that the police would have removed him. dogs have been removed by police just because they looked like dangerous dogs. They didn't have to do anything.

>dont tell me to "be real" i'm the one thats watched my poor boy deteriate over his time in the defra run quarantine facility! obviously i expected to have to deal with an "adolecent" male that is far from normal.

Er DEFRA do NOT run quarantine kennels, they are the government department that has quarantine as part of it's remit

> under the DDA I would have thought that the police would have removed him. dogs have been removed by police just because they looked like dangerous dogs

The dog would have had to be in a  Public place (including the owners vehicle in a  public place).  they are trying to change things that prosecutions can be brought on private property because some of the most serious cases have occurred on Private property.

I really am worried that the owner of this dog is going to be very seriously injured by this dog. I do hope for all sakes I'm wrong.

To the OP, I am not condemning you, though it might sound like it. I am honestly very seriously worried that we could be hearing about a far more serious attack on yourself in the future. Please rethink  about the way you are trying to dominate this puppy. He will have the mentallity of a much younger pup because of his quarantine. Take it slowly with him and build up his trust. If he has been used to having his food put down and then allowed to eat it, then please don't try to take it from him. He doesn't know you. As far as he is concerned you are a complete stranger to him and anything you do will be confusing. Go back to basics. Build up his trust through positive behaviour, not negative. When he does something you want him to do then treat him with a piece of sausage, or cheese, or any other titbit you wish to use. Let him see that you are really a nice person to be near.

I do hope that he settles down for you and makes it to be a very well trained dog.

On the point of removing food from a dog, I've often read that people do this to train a dog to allow them to take things from them, to be honest I have never understood this method, what is the point of it?

Never, ever have I taken food or a treat away from a dog just because I can, what one earth does that teach a dog? It does not show a dog that you are the master, in a pack the dog of a lesser pecking order may well have food taken away by an Alpha or higher ranking dog, but would most likely just have to wait it's turn. Humans don't eat dog food, we don't take things away from a dog to eat and never will, so why take it? IMO a dog must find this very confusing and in some cases may even cause resorce food guarding.

Far better to teach the drop command with none food objects, starting from pups with a ball, toy or dummy, once a dog understands this command you can ask it to drop undesireable foods which it may pick up like rats, or litter, or stolen food at home, followed by the leave command. 

I can quite happily remove any food bowl from any dog I have trained but when I take the bowl the dogs tail is wagging because it knows I am adding food a little chicken for instance, not taking anything away. I can sit next to any dog I've trained whilst it is eating and pick up the food from it's bowl and feed it with it, it has no fear of me taking anything.

Taking food away from a dog does not help to make you the master.

A good trainer can have any dog wrapped around their finger through hard work and training not in pretending to be a dog. :-)

I'm going to call a canine behaviourist Monday. to see what can be done.

W.S. Alapahas I know this post has it's ups and downs, but we all want to help as much as we can, what has happened with regards to calling in a behaviourist, has there been any improvement over the last few days?

Making a habbit of taking food away is strongly advisable by many behaviourists (not including the pack/dominance theory believers), especially with 'guarding' breeds. Many dogs end up going back to a shelter because they will not allow anybody near them when thay are eating, this most often stems from them being shut away at thier meal times and fed uniterupted.

It is to teach the dog that it is acceptable for you (and other familiy members, important with children about) to be near the dog when it is eating as well as being able to take a 'valuble' object off the dog, if done in the right way it stops food agression from guarding instincts. After all, many dogs are very food motivated, just because they will  drop a toy doesn't mean they will drop food.

When I fist got my puppy, he ate his food as if he had never been fed (not in the normal puppy way), he was terrified that somebody was going to steal it. So, from that moment on, for the next week, I hand fed him every meal, within 2 meals he stopped 'inhaling' his food, after a few days, he would sit & wait patiently for the next handfull. I then progressed to putting his bowl down with only part of the meal in, then taking it off him, just before he finished, adding more food and then givving the bowl back. After a week of this, I just fed the intire meal in 1 go, but frequently removed his bowl, got him to sit, then he would have it back. I also made a habbit of stroking him, moving / lifting his feet and playing with his ears. He is now bomb-proof. A toddler could waddle up to him when he is eating, yank his tail/pull his ear/ run off with his food and if Buster was to react at all, all he would do is sit & wait to be told to carry on with his meal. This also means that my Mastiff (guarding breed), will happily give up any prized object and if he staels something he shouldn't a simple 'wait' will have him drop it and sit down, if he can't drop it (he has got very floppy slobbery lips which things often get stuck in, so he can drop it), he will sit patiently while I remove whatever it is from his mouth.

With my lab cross, I believed that a dog should not be interupted when he was eating - sounds great in theory, but as my toddler padded into the kitchen and softly patted Rocky on the back while he was eating, Rocky turned round and snapped at him (I was in the kitchen at the time, 2 feet away form the dog). Why? because he thought that he shouldn't be interupted from feeding. This is now rectified. If the dogs steal food they are not allowed, something they consider to be a 'valuable' object (ie: chicken leg from the rubbish) even my children can take it from them, by removing it from thier mouths (the drop command is useless on a deaf dog, another lesson learnt - don't rely on verbal commands only, there is every chance of your dog going deaf when it is old, in which case all the verbal commands become useless).

Making a habbit of taking food, or anything else off of a dog, is a part of socialisation. Afterall,  a pup who naturally is afraid of stranger, will overcome this by meeting stangers on a regular basis, if he were to keept away form strangers beacuse they upset him this would lead to future problems. So, naturally, the way to let a dog know there is no problem if somebody needs to remove his food/take a bone off him, is to make a habbit of removing his food/bone.

Just to clarify - I do not belive children should be left unattended with any dog, no matter how well behaved it is.

Hi Mastifflover what you have described as your feeding regime is far removed from the OPs situation though. You started with a young puppy and hand fed so that the puppy learnt that you provide the food and therefore you were good to be around as there was a chance of getting fed. This puppy has come out of isolation where he has been given his food and left to eat it without disturbance and now this vaguely familiar but on the whole stranger is trying to steal his food. No one here is saying the dog shouldnt be trained to allow people near him when he's eating or to take thing off him when there unsuitable just that there are better ways of managing that with this particular dog at the satge he is at. Putting a small amount of food in his bowl and then adding to it is far more likely to gain his trust than taking a valuable resource away.

Hit it on the head there Satincollie, this puppy hasnt had training since 8 weeks old and to suddenly start roling it over and taking food away, i can understand why she isnt getting anywhere with the dog

satincollie, you are totally right :)

I wasn't agreeing with the OPs removing the pups food, so soon after getting him, I was trying to clarify the reason people use the method of removing food in response to Carringtons post, but I never made myself very clear atall :( - typical me, getting all carried away and going off on a tangent!!!

You are completely right, taking a dogs food away only works once trust is gained - achieved quite quickly with a young pup, if you are seen as the provider of food not the remover. I would expect an older puppy to take a few weeks longer to come round to trusting me before attempting to take it's food. Without the trust, removing the pups/dogs food/toys only enhances it's need to guard it :(

I'm intrigued as to why this dog can't be castrated - not saying this would be a cure all but with a suspect temperament it shouldn't be bred from no matter how much it has cost.     I suppose if the behaviour can be put down to the lack of socialisation and it develops a stable temperament in future then maybe it might be considered - but with such a powerful dog comes a lot of responsibility and if I was looking for a pup I'd want to know that the stud had attacked it's owner.  

Hi

I have a book that i would like to suggest it is a very good (but long) read, very specialist to dog training and behaviour.
Author: Lindsay S
Handbook of Applied Dog Behaviour and Training. Volume 1
Iowa State University Press
ISBN 0-81-382868-6

It starts with wolf behaviour and then goes on to say that the Wolf (Canis Lupus sp)  is very different to what we now have the Domestic Dog (Canis Familiaris). It has been bred in such a way that it no longer resembles the wolf, visually and biologically. The chemicals in the brain have changed therefore so have the behaviour, the neuro-transmitters in the brain etc i wont get too technical, but what we have in our house today is not a wolf so using these out of date ( proven inadequate by recent findings) methods are not the best. After 3 days you should not try these things, the dog doesnt know you at all and this 'alpha role' he was fighting for his lif, he doesnt know what your trying to do. As would a rogue wolf dog wandering onto a pack, if it was challanged it would fight for its life.

I also agree with above statement about castration, as behaviour is genetic too, obviously if things change and he becomes a good dog citizen, but with these training methods i doubt it

  If this is what you need to resort to because of his behaviour is so bad that a simple telling off wont suffice, you should speak to a professional. Because as you have shown you are not capable of dealing with it in your own methods (being bitten). Dog training shouldnt be about braun, it should be about brain and training methods not over powering your dog with strength. A dog needs to learn to respect you, not be scared of you like in a pack of wolves. If a the inferior pack member would step out of line it would be corrected by physical pain, a good hard bite. Since you are not a wolf yourself and cannot do these things then i suggest you abandon the harsher parts of your training theories. If we wanted wolves we wouldnt have changed them from what we see as a wolf now, to a dog. It was done 15,000 years ago for a reason. I have a similar large bull breed dogs and i have never resorted to this type of training.

>It starts with wolf behaviour and then goes on to say that the Wolf (Canis Lupus sp)  is very different to what we now have the Domestic Dog (Canis Familiaris). It has been bred in such a way that it no longer resembles the wolf, visually and biologically. The chemicals in the brain have changed therefore so have the behaviour, the neuro-transmitters in the brain etc i wont get too technical, but what we have in our house today is not a wolf so using these out of date ( proven inadequate by recent findings) methods are not the best.

Makes Sense to me.  Nothing stays the same, we live in a constant state of flux and interchangability, environments change genetic instructions, form follows function and today's dogs are far removed from a wild wolf.  Act more like a child sometimes; well mine do anyhow, :-D albeit some common instincts and behaviours still remain. 

It sounds a very interesting book.

I too do not condone the dominance theories, I always say aggression feeds aggression, dominance feeds dominance.   We get back what we put in; we receive what we give.....

I have read the original post over and over, trying to see where the 'aggression' has come from with your dog and I have to say I think you may have totally misread the situation and the dog. Yes, you were bitten and I can see how you would now be a bit shaken by his reaction but, I have to say that I think his reaction to the situation was totally natural and if you sit back and have a think about it I'm sure you will come to the same conclusion.
The poor chap is a baby, particularly in mental terms. He was simply protecting himself from an attack. If I have this right he was having a moan back at the bitch (which he spent most of his time in quarantine with) and from behind you have suddenely grabbed him, he has just span round and bit whatever was 'attacking' him, unfortunately you !!! Then probably panicked, bless him and out of fear ( from you being angry) he has then left the need to protect himself. I may have this totally wrong but, I had a puppy which came to me as a fear biter and he is now a perfectly balanced, loving dog, it just took time, patience and a good bond.
|The Alapaha is known as a very loving family dog and once bonded with his fanily he would never dream of harming any member but, he will need time for that bond to happen. I believe he should be treated as baby, loved and shown plenty of affection along with starting his obedience and learning the ground rules. Please don't try to be OTT with his punishments or 'alpha' leadership, he is not tryint obe difficult I'm sure, he just doesn't know what is expected of him yet!! 

Debbie 

I notice the OP has not been back for some time :(

Fed up I expect? Still, perhaps he should of or could of guessed at the kind of replies he would get to his post, simply by reading a few of the posts on the forum already?

Please can someone tell me why that when i try to view a topic that has more than one page, i automatically get sent to the last page & then can't get to the first one?? Tried clicking the little arrows at the side but nothing happens.

Try viewing in Active topics, don't have any other clue.

I tried with Explorer & that worked, must be a problem with Firefox.

Rach85 just to prove a point, on how you manipulate peoples words! you said "Also you say you have 6 dogs and no 'NO' or 'OI'will get them to stop, seems like none of your dogs respond to your training what so ever, so it cant be working can it????"

I said i can controll all my other dogs no problem they all have very stable temperaments. they were bought into the UK through a system called the "pet travel scheme" this way they learned bite inhabition and doggie manors. everything i have written has been unfairly manipulated by you and i think everyone here will agree that all of your comments have been utterly pointly seeimg as the point of the post was for CONSTRUCTIVE advice.

How's things going with the pup? Have you made any progress wit him yet??

(I'm not here to pick at you, am am genuinely interested & genuinely wish you the best of luck with his re-hab)

RACH85 said: "Hit it on the head there Satincollie, this puppy hasnt had training since 8 weeks old and to suddenly start roling it over and taking food away, i can understand why she isnt getting anywhere with the dog "

so rach next you'll probably be saying i stole his food off him very nasterly while kicking his poor defensless body to the ground.
His food was steadily removed from him during his days in quarantine and at home it was never done out of the blue at 7 months old
you idiot! the so called "alpha roll" was only ever done when he was willing I never forced it i simply rolled him the way he was going, basically seeing if he would willing submit. this ponit was stated so you could imaging his soppyness he never once protested and willingly laid on his back. the same with his toys you say "you stole his toys and got bitten, what do you expect" like i said i took his food and toys off of him numerous times in a manor that respected him. the statment was based on the fact he willingly let me take his toys, so why is he being dominant when i tell him "no".

I class myself as a higly responsible dog owner, I am distraught at the fact the quarantine staff didn't tell me puppies have trouble, i also whole heartly blame myself and regret the whole thing. i have learnt from my mistake, and am willing to work with my boy untill his behaviour is fixed.

hey thanks alot, he's doing a whole lot better, I've seen 3 different behaviourist and they all have help out very much. I think some people have read my post and taken it the wrong way..
my "pup" turned on me when i challenged him it was totally my fault, i have learned the hard way but atleast i've learned.

he is slowly becoming a better behavied dog, his sister is amazing now but as you can imagine not quite there yet. when i got them she was full of fire would not stop jumping, mouthing you name it she did it, with that she was shown a firm but fair hand this taught her these behaviours were unacceptable. on the other hand the boy was very laid back like he is now, he only used his teeth when he wanted to play fetch or tug of war ( oh no tug of war, better be careful what i say!lol.) this is obviously where i went wrong... i'm told you should encourage a puppy to bite you in order to teach it bite inhabition, which i did not do.. i used to leave the quarantine kennel, wished i had more dogs like him and why his sister couldn't be laid back like him. When he "attacked" me there was no aggression no growling, he was in prey drive in other words playing! i should have not reacted to him snapping at me originally. What a mistake i made posting my question on here

"sibling rivalry my friend

Strange, haven't seen it in the related dogs and bitches I know who have been kept together???   and dogs don't know that their sister is 'out of bounds'  they will still try to mate her when she's receptive and pester her when she's not, which is why they get 'told off' by the bitch.  It's more likely that he doesn't have a clue how to relate to other dogs or humans and your methods of controlling him aren't exactly helping him, merely convincing him that he must defend himself at all costs

TBH the most helpful thing for you at the moment would be to have an open mind.  We are not the ones with an aggressive dog which has put us in hospital (several of the posters have large breeds.)  I wonder why that is?   Could it be because the methods you so disparage actually work?"

I have had large breeds my hole life, for the 1000th time my pup is not aggressive. all of my imported alapahas were all bought into this word the right way eccept 2 of them which and i'll say it again, I am the one to blame for it. but its obvious to everyone bar a few idiots this whole problem with ONE of my dogs was bought about thanks to quarantine FACT... you people that can not read and just like to argue should go away and post else where.  And when this was posted i had tried few of my methods as i only had him home for 3 days.. so what are you rambling on about!

It's great he is showing improvements in just a few weeks :)

it is very easy to look back on something after and see where you went wrong or what should have been done different, but at the time we act instinctively. I have been bitten by my own dog (a previous dog, not my current ones) breaking up a fight, it was not a 'serious' bite, but his tooth whent through the flesh on my finger, in 1 side - out the other, neadless to say i learnt from it.  i would still break up a fight (regardless of it being advised against) I would just be much more carefull where I put my hands :)

I play tug-of-war with my dogs,it's my pups favorite game - I know a lot of people say it encourages dominance issues, but he knows when I say drop it's game over :)

Yes, your pups haven't had a chance to learn the bite inhibition - they will do in time.

Good luck with both pups, I'm sure they'll turn out to be as well behaved as your other dogs.

Ok Jewel you have told me stuff i new along time ago and i am afraid you are wrong about alot of things, also you have miss read my posts.. Deary me it looks like im going to have to repeat myself again this is now becoming a joke no offense #1: The dog has no aggression problem #2 I was not aggressive with my dog, #3 he wasn't having a moan at his sister. when a dog is challenged it is challenged i'm sorry dogs do not moan at eachother. it may have been a pointless "pack" squabble where either dog rarely comes off badly, but none the less it was unacceptable so i told him "no" whilst pulling his collar in a calm yet asertive not AGGRESSIVE way, he was NOT scared and most certainly did not feel the urge to protect himself contrary to what you have picked up from my posts. my vocal command and physical command was similar to what an Alpha dog would do to resore piece. he (the dog) felt himself as the leader and took my command as a challenge, when you are not established as pack leader there is a place that must be taken and more often than not the higher place is taken by the winner of a fight.. all this, no bite inhabition and quarantine are the factors behind the my dogs behaviour problem, not what you may want to believe... unfortunatly with my lack of experience in dealing with "adult" sized dominant dogs i miss read my place in the pack..   I am a responsible dog owner and have owned Alapaha bulldogs since 2004, I studied and lived with the breed for several months, long before there were alapahas in this country and unlike most scamming money makers i own this dog because i fell inlove with it first hand!!!!! there are some people that own these dogs in the UK that have only done their research on the internet and let me tell you there is hardly anything to learn online. fair enough if you just want to own one but some of these people call them selves breeders. i have worked with and studied these dogs in their orginal enviroment for over 7 years, I personally know all of the top breeders of my preferred conform in the U.S.A, none of them has reported problems like this. I also have a diploma and good understanding of canine psycology,  which i feel is inadiquate knowlege for my boys behaviour problem, With the help of expericened behaviourists my dog is on his way to becoming a wonderful familly pet.
All though some of what you wrote made sense what your have said has been no help what so ever.

mastifflover, i really appriecate you kind imput, your the kind of folk these forums need. thankyou again i'm genuinly touched.

Alapahas it would help that when you quote other peoples post to put " or >> before the quote,as i'm having real trouble figuring out if your posts are written by you or you are quoting other peoples posts.

Below the post you want to quote,after you hit reply is a little box containing " ",just press this and copy the quote.

> so what are you rambling on about!

begining to wonder that myself about you.

i appreciate that you are unhappy with the responces some people have given and that this is a distressing subject for you but could you please calm down? your last few posts have been rather ranting and as such are difficult to read.

you also say > you people that can not read and just like to argue should go away and post else where

it seems to me that you are looking to restart an argument that has been left idle for weeks now. what i would say is that this is a forum, there is not the benifit of inflection or expression as we have in speech, there is only the written word which is easily read differently. you did say at one point something to do with not being able to seperate bickering dogs or some such with a word and you have chosen to attack those who have said you should- unless it is serious (very very rare) you should!

i am glad that your finding things easier now with the pups, getting behaviourists involved was a good idea.

regading the cesar milan techniques you've been trying to use previously, from my understanding of his methods you seem to have been misusing them a bit. from what i understand about 'alpha rolls' they are ment to be used only on 'red zone' dogs...from what you've said you were using it on him when he was not in that attitude. personally i don't like this method anyway, as look what happened when the dog was actually being aggresive, didn't work out so well for you (btw, i hope your healing ok)

> TBH the most helpful thing for you at the moment would be to have an open mind.

i think that this is very good advice in all situations in life and certainly in this.

QUOTE>> "i think you need to learn patience with your dogs. honestly, >we're not trying to gang up on you,< but if everyone on here disagrees with your methods perhaps its worth heeding? " you obviouslydo agree with my methods you just said so.... look here QUOTE >> "i do have some faith in the pack style idea (don't jump on me guys!) but i don't believe in overt domination"

DONT JUMP ON ME GUYS.. you said mate!

For the record.. I do not believe in overt dominance either!!!. I have owned large bulldog breeds my whole life I am most certainly not cruel, My dogs get individual care and attention through out the whole day. All of my dogs are very muched loved, they are very happy and very stable bar 1, and he is on his way to success! My training methods consist of  a mixture of traditional orthodox techniques and that of the natural order "pack behaviour". both have great pro's and not so great con's like everything!  both methods work fine for me, its just unfortunate i miss read the situation with my new pup, everyone makes mistakes it was my first and last mistake.. again for the record or anyone it may concern of coarse i did not attemp the Alapha roll aggressively or at the wrong time!!!! like someone else has said its done in a way that is very subtle, through playing.  I have never had a dog that i have not been able to handle and i have never suggested i can not handle my male dog recently out of quarantine, the day after i was bitten i spent the wole day working with him. I know its a behaviour problem and i know its thanks to quarantine (yes the whole picture, no socaization, no soild training and no bite inhabition,etc..)  My boy is a very happy boy he is very effectionate and likes to please.  people quite rightly say he is only a baby, well yes i agree mentally he is, but he is 70lbs and has a super strong jaw so he is built like an adult. A firm but fair hand is needed ( oh and Rach85,  NO that does not mean I'm going to beat him..  lol).

Carrington: QUOTE>> "On the point of removing food from a dog, I've often read that people do this to train a dog to allow them to take things from them, to be honest I have never understood this method, what is the point of it?

Never, ever have I taken food or a treat away from a dog just because I can, what one earth does that teach a dog?"

When you feed a dog it is an INVITATION to eat. so the dogs knows who is in controll and not to take a given situation into its own hands....Look at it this way, imagine your dog accidently picks up a big bit of coocked chicken when your out on a walk, if you have never practiced taken food from your dog, you now have a problem, it is in a dogs instict to protect its food.
imagine you have a dog that wont allow you to remove his food, nearly all of my dogs have differnent diets, on occations I have given the wrong food to a dog if i had'nt practiced removing food prior to this i could be missing a finger! that is why i do it, and for good reasons!

>it is in a dogs instict to protect its food.

Yes of course - food is essential to life. So in order to be able to remove a dog's food safely it needs to learn that it can trust its owner. This is taught by only giving food to the dog, little and often, so that it associates the owner's (and anybody else's) hands only with giving. It's only when that trust has been established - and it can take some weeks if the breeder hasn't done that training by making sure that the litter doesn't have to compete for food - can the owner begin the gesture of removing/giving back food. Take the food away too soon, even if it's returned straight away, will only prove to a dog that it was right to defend its food in the first place, reinforcing the potential for resource guarding.

A dog three days out of quarantine kennels (as described in your original post) won't have had these weeks of training with his food, and so hasn't learned to trust.

I am curious as to how often you visited the dogs in quarantine?

I and three friends imported a puppy of 9 weeks into Quarantine.

I visited him three times every week and this other owners who lived all over the country visited when they could, the lady he lives with full time went in once  a week.

I lead trained him taught him to show, being gone over etc.  I played games with him did a little gentle roughhousing and taught him bite inhibition, basically anything that I could within the confines of a kennel and run.

I even bought a wind up radio which I took in with me each time and set it to Chat channels with male presenters so he would be happy with male voices as all his regular visitors were female as was his kennel maid.

I also took in my children, who were then 16 and 12, and any I could borrow and any friends I could convince to come with me.

I would argue that this dog came out of quarantine one of the most well adjusted dogs I know.

Only thing he had issues with was car travel, had never enjoyed it, simply tolerates it, and he wasn't reliable house trained, in so much as he was clueless about asking to go out, and would as soon soil in another room as outside, but very quickly learnt.

He came into a household of an established alpha male, another young 12 months male, and several bitches, and had no problems socially.  He did behave like a 9 week old pup, not a 9 month old though, so he was treated by the adults as such, and there were no problems with him and the alpha male.

There are lots of dogs that go through Quarantine without problems.  When choosing to put especially baby pups through quarantine it is vital to do what socialisation one can, but also to choose very carefully the temperament that is robust enough to withstand this challenge.

Our boy was not unusual, the said Alpha male had himself been imported through Quarantine with his sister as a baby.  He too was an outstanding example regarding temperament, and was a gentleman.

My breed is naturally outgoing and bold, but I have also known members of a very sensitive herding breed that have come through quarantine well as puppies, so any harm quarantine does can be minimised.  I would venture to say that a puppy carefully handled through quarantine will be better off than an adult going through it.

A pup will normally have had a fairly restricted life prior to Quarantine, having been in the litter, with it's dam, and had not yet formed Strong bonds as part of a human family, it won't really be missing what it hadn't had.

Quarantine has kept our shores safe from a deadly disease for around a 100 years.  It allows us not to need to vaccinate our pets routinely for this disease, means that our dogs cats and wildlife are safe from being killed as happens when outbreaks occur in other countries.  means are attitude to wild creatures is generally positive as we aren't worried about risk of infection by being bitten or scratched by a wild animal or strange cat or dog.

Barbra, I paid staff extra to "socialize" my puppy and teach him the basics in doggy manors. I visted my pups (that were kenneled together) with friends and my partner 3-4 times a week without fail. he is well lead trained, sits, down, stays and can downstay, he walks perfectly at heel and does not pull, he is not phazed by other dogs unless he is challenged, he is very obedient but has no idea about bite inhabition!

Again this is my fault i'm not disputing that. the female was very intense. she jumped up constantly and loved to rough house she learned quickly these behaviours were unacceptable , the male did nothing, he never used jumped up or used his mouth in general very very laid back. he only ever used his mouth when he wanted to play which i obliged to.   I thought because he didn't use his mouth that was a good thing, i was wrong... i since learned that puppies are often encouraged to bite in order to teach them Bite Inhabition. I fed the pups twice daily, 3 to 4 times a week for 6 months.

I rang defra and other reputible organizations, i was told that pups are never normally a problem in quarantine, so i went a head with it once and never agian.. I made sure there was a radio,and had plenty of bordem breaker like knog balls etc... i have more coming to me they are entering the UK through PETS like my other dogs.. I will never be using quarantine again... also when i complained to chingford quarantine kennels I was told by the manager and i quote " Quarantine was designed for pets of owners that were relocating, NOT PUPPIES"

I am also not disputuing puppies can go through quarantine without trouble, look at my male pups sister she is fine and learning tremendously. great around the house.

As regards to quarantine... Alot of dogs that are brought in are stray's from places like turkey, cyprus and other places where stray dogs gain the heart of british touristed. I noted no one visited them or they came rarely there life was refined to a tiny box. I belive quarantine should be shortened just like most of the defra officals i've spoken with..

It is fact that Rabies shows up in a dog  2-3 weeks after the vaccine is administrated. the vaccine as you probably know can only be administed to a dog that is 12wks or older if the dog is rabid it will show in under a month. so why the lengthy quarantine period.  There has been talks of them shortening the period to 3 months but because all the facilities are privately run there is no push for the change.