Although there are some working labs at the very top who may be too 'hot' for the novice dog owner, or to make a good pet, most make good pets.  Yes, they have been bred to do a days work, but the temperament requires them to sit still for long periods doing nothing under huge pressure and temptation.  Athough not a fan of the heavy show labs, the real reason I love working labs is for their temperament. Yes, they have drive, they can keep going all day if required, but they are very biddable, easy to train, people orientated dogs, that will happily lie at your feet all day, until it's time to go for a walk.  My two are fast asleep next to me on the sofa - and they haven't had their walk yet :-(.  Both have pedigrees that read like the who's who of working labs, and when I get the leads or dummies out will be there in a shot, but are also happy to snuggle up on the sofa.  I also only have a 30' garden, so their walks are their main source of exercise.

> I still beleive we should be breeding dogs that are capable of doign the job they are bred for, but winning at competions for work is not the same thing as still having hunting/retrieving/herding instincts.

Brainless, I can't speak for other breeds as I don't know what their competitions consist of, but Field Trial 'competitions' are held on a normal shoot doing a normal days work.
At least in the UK they are.  Interestingly, in the US they are artifically set up and their working dogs are much 'hotter' than their english counteparts - one reason why english working labs are so prized out there.

Pompeydave, as you live in the south, you could contact Graham Roberts of Riversway.  He has some lovely working dogs (not whippet-like) who have superb temperaments, I'm sure he will be able to put you in touch with any upcoming litters.

Yep it does seem that the competition Lbs in USA are too hot to handle and our Labs are considered to be superior in their common sense.

I can really relate to your first paragraph as the hunting instinct is very much alive and well in my breed with regular imports to hunting dogs, and they are very easy to live with, do not climb the Walls at home.

some can be not so good with recall, being strong minded and returning when they see fit, but this is not so much an issue if the correct training is undertaken early enough, before they gain that confidence and I know better attitude :D

I must admit I hate to see the overweight over heavy show types, but do see much more moderate types at shows too, and invariably the owners/breeders also do some work.

Ditto I am very careful which dogs I choose as stud for my girls and I have managed to breed good litters .My girls are very steady and I look for good temperment.This is not always the case in working community as they want workers and most never see ther inside of house .My dogs are walked a lot they are allowed free runs and they swim most days,they are great all round dogs and they`re healthy.3 are total working /FT bred 1 is duel ,the duel has taken longer to mature.

Ok, thanks for all the replies- my original post does seem to have opened up a can of worms! Anyway, we've had good news from my wifes family in that they're happy to look after a dog during the day on the days when we're both working, so it looks like we can start searching. I think if we're careful how we select a dog we'll be ok. Whatever we get, it won't go short on exercise, so we'll see if we can come up with a working type that's come from a working/pet type background. Having said that we're just as likely to end up with a rescue dog if a suitable one comes along....

I absolutely agree....if you want a working dog expect to give it physical as well as mental exercise. Re-homing centres are full of dogs who's owners cannot cope. My friend a dog behaviourist is called out all the time to work with 'working dogs' who have serious behviour problems as they are highly intelligent and generally under stimulated mentally, therfore getting bored and naughty.

That is not to say that all labs will not enjoys to cuddle up by the fire and hang out in the garden all day. But i think they maybe come from home breeders rather than farm/working stock. As for the debate about long and short legs it is incredible how the same breed looks different. If you studied your breed with the same down the road there is always a difference . You only have to study a class at crufts ....you see some breeds that are different in the head, look, leg, coat, eye, height etc etc.

I think the purpose of the breed and its history (they all have one) should match your family. If you want a lap dog get a toy breed. If you want to take it jogging get a dalmation, if you want a rat catcher get a terrier,  if you want a herding dog ...get a herder for example.
This is why we have ended up with a 'Dangerous Dogs Act'  and a 'band dogs list' some breeds have been developed and bred to be short tempered and to fight each other! (maybe thats another debate...........)

I have Tibetan Spaniels whos characters are watchful house/lap dogs who only bark if intruders or strangers approach. Loyal to their human family but independant making them hard to train. These unlike some breeds....fit into my family beautifully.

good advice ...except.not everyone wants their choice of dog confined to a smallish lap dog type. ( and I agree that Tibbies are just perfect family pets !!!)

  Dogs from the Pastoral/Working /Hound or Terrier groups are amongst the most popular as family 'pets' and also amongst the most likely to have problems unless their working drives are modified or catered for

I think the purpose of the breed and its history (they all have one) should match your family.

in an ideal world yes ....but not realistic ...for example .just how many of us have sheep that need herding  ? yet the border collie is hugely popular as a pet similarly how many owners of Westies 'work ' their dogs according to their original purpose ...and I will not even mention the thousands of Bull breeds that are owned by folk with no intention ( thank goodness) of bull baiting or dog fighting.

There is a lot of emphasis ( rightly) placed on the importance of breeding for phyiscal health .....I believe that we should also be breeding to ensure good mental health as well - the overwhelming number of dogs bred do NOT need high working drives and I believe it does them a disservice to continue to breed characteristics that are no longer suitable to todays society.

Yvonne

we breed labradors from working lines and our puppies go to both working homes and family homes with children ... we have always had good feed back from our puppy owners to how well their puppy has settled into their new homes ... we always tell our prospective puppy owners that our puppies will enjoy an active life whether it be in the field or in a family enviroment ..... all the puppies have been taken to training classes and have passed in their classes with ease ... i think it is such a shame that there is this great divide between the show and the working labs .... we do try to use the heavier type working stud dog for our girls as opposed the the very lightweight ones only to try to keep the traditional type that we find most people seem to prefer .... as with most showing it is very subjective and it is what the judges like that then goes on to determine the shape that breeders will try to emulate .... and i can only agree that some of the show labs are now getting to the point where they are so short in the leg and heavy in the body that i cannot see how they would possibly survive a day in the field .... if only the breed would somehow get back to the days of the dual champions .... wishful thinking ....

Having owned show and working bred labradors, I have to say that alot of normal family homes would not cope with a working bred labrador.
I show and breed and brought in a working labrador to train up for working tests and working.  Well the training, working tests etc were all easy for her, she was a natural but I didn't enjoy it much. She was very hyper but not compared to some of them out there!!! When I moved I asked her trainer who loved her to bits if he wanted to take her on which he did, she still lives there 5 years on and is happy.
On the other hand my show bred labs are for the most part laid back. I have used lines which also work and the other side where the dogs are heavier. In my opinion all have the same lenght of leg but the body shape makes some seem shorter. I like doggy looking bitches and so mine are big and chunky. I have one here who is 2 inches under the breed standard bless her but she has been shown as a youngster, she is pets as therapy registered AND she has worked. Even with short legs she can clear a fence or gate like any of the working labs she worked with. The trainers laughed when I first took her and said she wouldn't do it, well a couple of months later they were gobsmacked watching her. In my opinion she might be short but she can do it all, so short legs might hinder in some cases but it doesn't mean that dog can only show.
In my opinion show bred labradors make the better family pet, they do not require as much exercise and in a family home with children, school, nursery, after school activities etc etc some days families do not have a couple of hours to exercise the dog, not ideal maybe but a labrador will fit in no matter what.
Having been to Crufts after a break from the ring I ws shocked to see that the labradors had gotten smaller in frame and overall size and that for now is obviously what is doing well in the ring, however I like what I have, have always done well with them and will not be producing smaller built dogs to fit in with what IMO is the latest faze. If the judges don't like the full heavy frame anymore then me and the dogs will enjoy a day out. When I first started showing the big heavy type were winning then it went to smaller frames and back to bigger labs, now we seem to be going smaller again.
Some of the labs I have bred compete in the ring, some at flyball, agility and obedience, most are family pets. Whatever they do they are all labs and all breeders should be trying to achieve that even temperment that the lab is so well known for.

I don't think the show people are just only considering the conformation standards. I know of some working Goldens up this way  that don't believe in the hip scoring or eye testing and yet are still allowing their dogs to be used at stud and are breeding litters. They are producing good working 'stock' but just do not believe that they need to do the health checks. Now to me, that smacks of someone that has had a problem before but is just acting blinkered to the fact that dogs also need to be healthy.

> I know of some working Goldens up this way  that don't believe in the hip scoring or eye testing and yet are still allowing their dogs to be used at stud and are breeding litters.

thats weird, i would have thought that those who worked their dogs and so demand physical fitness) would be all the more eager to health test :(

>i would have thought that those who worked their dogs and so demand physical fitness) would be all the more eager to health test

No, they reckon that if the dogs can do a day's work then there's nothing wrong. Which, in many ways, is sound reasoning.

yes but some HD etc doesn't really get noticable for a while so maybe they won't be able to do a job of work in a little while. our mastiffs didn;t show up till he was about 3. plus even if your workers managed ok it doesn't mean they have a good score, so an unknown poor scoring dog and bitch= not good working stock pups. it just seems strange to me, if your breeding a litter for the intention of getting a good worker i'd think they;d want to do the best they can to ensure they would be good workers.

I will stand up for the working community here,when I was looking for my first lab 7 years ago all working stock were hip and eye  scored only a few of the show litters were screened I was looking for a working stock lab and I veiwed a few litters as I knew what I wanted ,i also viewed show litters.The pup I got the hip scores were recorded for many generations.All my dogs are screened as are the studs I use.Some of the excuses I got for not screening were pathetic.Even if I wasn`t breeding I would want to know the health of my dogs.

look on ukgundogs the stud dogs are all screened as are the parents of pups for sale

so basically its the same as in showing where some do and some don't... i suppose in every ara there are those that are careful and those who suffer from apathy

Yes I`m afraid so up here in scotland there is quite a few show bred litters for sale in free ads that are still not screened ,we do have a problem up here with the poor pups coming from Ireland and they are in a poor state,but people will look for a bargain and get caught out with these pups as they have vet bills to pay. 

>some HD etc doesn't really get noticable for a while so maybe they won't be able to do a job of work in a little while.

Playing devil's advocate here, but I'm sure we all know of dogs with rubbish hips scores that are sound movers into old age, and dogs with super scores that aren't. A good score isn't necessarily the important factor.

of course, sometimes it no bother at all but its generally not recomended to breed from them is all.

my point was that i found it surpirsing that someone looking for a work (or show dog for that matter) would want to put the time and money into breeding a litter without doing their utmost to ensure that the pups would be able to meet the purpose they were bred for, if you see what i mean.

no scoring= a worse chance of healthy hips= higher possibility of 'useless' pups (work wise)

Yes I agree you have to look at the whole dog that is why I viewed quite a few litters gaining useful information as I did .Some litters I viewed when I got there only dogs left and I wanted a girl.I viewed litters all over Scotland and nothern England.I viewed one litter in Stirling and was very tempted to take the boy as he was what I was looking for and the breeder did me a great favour in telling me about another litter with a similar pedigree that his dog was sire of too only it was only 4 weeks old .End result I had found my beautiful Skye after a 6 month+ search.
I act the same way when I`m looking for a stud for my girls he has to be right for them too.

Quite agree. I have a dog with a 55 hip score, she has never been lame in her life and at 13 1/2 is now showing signs of stiffness and lameness. However, I wouldn't have bred from her, so yes it does matter that even is she could do a days work, she should not be bred from. Also, as our breed suffers from Hereditary Cataract, I believe that it is paramount to health test to stop our breed from having this debilitating disease. What good is a working dog if it can't see. Yes, they may use their noses but they should also be able to see where they are going.