Hey, just been browsing round Ebay and found an
anti bark collar that gives the dog a small shock to
correct excessive barking ....

Dunno if I could .... Would you ?????

absolutely no way, they are now ILLEGAL in the uk !!!!!

Seriously .. I had no idea that they were banned :(
They actually state that they're not cruel too ...

Why are Ebay not pulling them off their listings then?
There are a few other, much safer methods, like the one
that simply sprays on the dog when it barks..

Shocking, there are actually bids on a couple of them too :(

>they are now ILLEGAL in the uk !!!!!

No they're not, I'm afraid. There are discussions ongoing with the Scottish and Welsh Assemblies about a possible ban, but nothing for the UK parliament as a whole. Ecollars are perfectly legal in the UK at present.

sometimes the cruelty beggars belief, we have a sonic bark stopper thats fitted to the wall of the kennel and it seems to have worked well for our one bitch that loves the sound of her own voice!!!!!!!!!!

There's a few HUMANS I'd like to put one on ;) but a dog?   NEVER!

i agree 100%, one human includes the neighbour who always thinks the barking is my dogs because I have 5, rather than the person up the road who although only had one it never shuts up??!!!!

Yeah I seen the sonic ones. It's beyond my comprehension
that people would resort to shocking their poor dogs ...

Wow, I never cease to be amazed at the length people will go ...

Sharon
X

No, no and thrice no. Anyone who needs to resort to electrocuting their dog in order to train it shouldn't have a dog in the first place.

Gosh i would love to have you all on the American dog sites where using these contraptions is perfectly normal and acceptable

>sometimes the cruelty beggars belief, we have a sonic bark stopper

So how does that work then? Does something 'unpleasant' happen every time the dog barks?

can I just say e-collars dont "electrocute" the dog, they give a brief static shock, similar to what you would get from a car door.  In the wrong hands, I agree they could be subject to mis-use but they do have their place in dog training, but not to be used by the layman.

From various reading I have done, I believe these collars, when set correctly, do not give a shock, as in an electric fence, but a feeling of tension or discomfort as with a TENS machine. I wonder whether a loud high pitched noise is any kinder to the dog?

I dont know what a TENS machine is, but the collar I tested on myself felt like a static shock that you would get from a car door. 

TENS machine gives pain relief, only time I used it was when in labour. By the end it was full pelt lol....and I couldnt feel it.....but early on its like a tingle. never tried a shock collar, have caught hold of an electric fence wow never again :D has anyone here ever actually tried a shock collar, see what the volage is like?

yes I have tried one on myself, it's not as bad as it sounds, like described more of a static shock. most of them have different settings. Some also have a sound only function too, so not always a shock but a beep to remind them of unwanted behaviours.

TENS machines are used to give electric shocks for pain relief. I know it sounds weird, but a repeated low-level electric shock can be used to stimulate pain receptors so that the underlying long-term pain becomes bearable. Commonly used in childbirth, for period pains and long-term muscular pain like back-ache. You can alter the intensity of the shock, at a low level it feels like a tiny buzz, but you turn it up until the intensity is slightly uncomfortable, but not painful, it is then effective for pain relief.

they are very good- something you might all be familiar with but similar is the electic toning belts etc that you get? that zap your muscles to tighten them up, like this www.ciao.co.uk/Beauty_Works_LEAN_Machine__6491522

yes I have one of those belts - didnt find it much use though (insert rolleyes here !!)

The collars have a beep so you can sound the beep to warn the dog of what is coming, they have quite  few levels on them (about 15 I think).  I know of a "sprocker" who didnt even react to the highest level   personally I think the lowest one was enough for me. 

I've see a video on you tube of someone finding the working level of a dog, basically deciding which level he starts with. The dog doesn't react for quite some time as they work up the levels, and when he does it is only very slight. He describes it as a tiny insect crawling over the dog and the dug just looked down as if an ant had walked over him. I have never felt one myself, but had to write essays for and against the use of e collars. Interestingly i was very anti before, and still am to some degree, but i do think perhaps in the write hands they have a place. The stim should be more of an irritation than a pain, but obviously as they are sold to anyone you get people who misuse it. Trouble is anything can be aversive to different dogs. Some dogs may find an sonic bark controller just as nasty as an e collar as they have such sharp hearing.

> Gosh i would love to have you all on the American dog sites where using these contraptions is perfectly normal and acceptable <IMG alt=mad src="/images/mad.gif">

I'm on one of them - a dobe forum - and I despair at it :-( When I asked for help with Remy's recall when I first joined 4 years ago half the people said e-collar.  Thank dog I didn't listen!  I find they are more likely to listen if I don't argue though - if I ignore all the posts about e-collars or pinch collars and various punitive methods for different behaviours, and just post a well-written, structured piece of advice with scientific backing in it (i.e. reasons why to avoid punishments but without referencing people if possible, that sort of thing) then people are more likely to listen.

I will admit, there are times when I think it'd be nice to give one of the dogs such a nasty jolt that it'd stop them doing something, but I could never, never actually do it - as someone has already said, if you need to resort to electrocution then you've no business owning a dog.

>if you need to resort to electrocution then you've no business owning a dog.

as already said, these collars do not "electrocute" the dog, its a shame people dont do more research before saying things like this on a public forum

No, no and thrice no. Anyone who needs to resort to electrocuting their dog in order to train it shouldn't have a dog in the first place.

i dont agree with it for barking but what about dogs that worry/attack/kill sheep? farmers have the right to shoot any dog on their land let alone dogs attacking their sheep, electronic collars are good for some things when in the right hands

To be honest for practical purposes a sheep worrying dog needs to be kept on lead as there is no way to guaranteee a cure.

I dont agree with it for barking either, but believe as a last alternative for certain things it can be a life line for some dogs. 

a friend of ours has a lurcher that attacked sheep, they bought an electronic collar, used it and have never had a problem with their dog since

I have heard this has worked on sheep worrying dogs before - they basically think the sheep is causing it, they dont connect it to the collars.  My parents lurcher chases anything that moves and is stone deaf, we had considered using a collar on her but she is so sensitive I think it would have the reverse affect.

I wouldn't use an e-collar for general training/behaviour problems, however, I think they have thier place when used by the right people, at the right intensisty, for the right reasons.
I have seen them used is shows on the TV to stop a farm dog 'herding' cars & tractors (he was ran over several times before the e-collar training was used) and onther time to teach dogs to stay away from snakes, this was America - little need for snake savvy in the UK.

There is a risk when using it to retrain problems like sheep worrying that the dog will associate the pain with the sheep and actually become more aggressive in a bid to get rid of the cause of the pain.

>as already said, these collars do not "electrocute" the dog, its a shame people dont do more research before saying things like this on a public forum.

Incorrect word usage on my part, fair enough.  But I still stand by what I said - anyone feeling the need to use electricity to train a dog should not have a dog.

>Incorrect word usage on my part, fair enough.  But I still stand by what I said - anyone feeling the need to use electricity to train a dog should not have a dog.

That is your opinion which of course you are welcome to it.  There are times in dog training when you have tried everything, and everything fails, then you have a choice, your dog could be put to sleep / spend its life confined to a lead or you could try one last thing.  I did try that one last thing, I only used it half a dozen times in the 6 weeks I had it but it has given my dog a hell of a lot more freedom than what he would have had.  Dont get me wrong, ive been with dogs all my life and have various qualifications, I was anti e-collars until I realised I had run out of methods with my boy but im glad I tried it and im sure he is too.  It is not a method I took lightly and I did all the research, they are definitely not something the layman should be able to get his hands on but in the right hands and as a last resort it was a god send.

>There is a risk when using it to retrain problems like sheep worrying that the dog will associate the pain with the sheep and actually become more aggressive in a bid to get rid of the cause of the pain.

This is where you have to know your dog, the reason we didnt use one on my mums dog was because it would have made her worse.

> I've see a video on you tube of someone finding the working level of a dog, basically deciding which level he starts with. The dog doesn't react for quite some time as they work up the levels, and when he does it is only very slight. He describes it as a tiny insect crawling over the dog

I've seen that video too, and I saw the dog react WAY before he said it did. Tons of generalised stress signals. Watch it again and look at the dog.

These things work by causing pain, pure and simple. WHY would a dog change their behaviour because it felt like a small insect was climbing over them? They change their behaviour because it's unpleasant. Why would a 'mild stimulation' stop a dog mid chase? I've tried a shock collar too, I found it more unpleasant than the next person to try it, so it obviously varies from dog to dog as well. Also, I tried the collar on my hand, and I controlled when the shock came. I daresay if it was strapped to my neck and activated whenever I did something the 'trainer' didn't want me to, it would be a lot more stressful. I'd probably be too scared to try and work out what was causing the shock, and if I worked out where it was coming from (dogs can, and do figure that part out!) I certainly wouldn't feel safe around that person. It's certainly not the relationship I want to have with my dogs.

As said earlier, they work on stock chasing because the dog associates the sheep with the shock. So what happens if the collar is used to recall the dog away from another dog?
What happens when the timing is off by a split second and the dog gets the shock as he turns to recall? Or happens to glance at a child?

You start off using it in a controlled situation, where there isnt going to be a child or other dog about, my dog learnt if he did not return on my whistle (one particular whistle) then he would get a buzz, he would be at a distance so there was nothing to blame it on, and he didnt connect it to me, once he learnt that the whistle meant if he didnt return he would get a buzz then I took him out into the real world with it, I think I used it once, but was very careful not to use it near another person or dog. There are going to be what ifs about any type of training, as ive said on this thread already it is a last resort training method for when there is nothing else left to try.  Im not saying also that this is a fool proof way of training, all this did was get him out of a very bad habit which I couldnt do any other way. I still work with him every day on his recall with clicker training, treats and praise.

Can I ask what problem you had, and what methods you'd tried?

I do hate them and hate their use, I accept you used one as a last resort and not a lazy quick fix (and that you were careful with its use) but I think there is always other options.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one!

>So what happens if the collar is used to recall the dog away from another dog?

The manufacturers' instructions all say that they should not be used to 'correct' dog/dog or dog/human aggression.

> The manufacturers' instructions all say that they should not be used to 'correct' dog/dog or dog/human aggression.

No but they are recommended for recall, if the distraction happens to be another dog (or person, or child etc) the dog could end up making a very dangerous connection.

Claire, I sympathise with your problem, some dogs are easier to teach than others! I would say though, that a reward doesn't need to be food. A reward can be permission to go and play with another dog for example. It's all irrelevant now anyway, it's good that you didn't overuse the collar. In my experience people who have paid a lot want to get their money's worth out of them. :(

Wouldnt use a shock collar, or E collar or whatever they are called. 

I haven't figured out the quote thing on here yet but one of my dogs was a chaser of birds, sheep, cattle, horses, rabbits, cats, pretty much anything really. He is a stubborn, driven, incredibly thick skinned dog and he was chase obsessed. Several times I fully expected to hear the 'bang' of a farmer's gun as he took off over a hill after a flock of sheep. I had more than one professional gundog trainer tell me that he'd never stop doing it and the only way was to give him a hiding or stick an electric collar on him, I was offered the loan of several. Well I never took up those offers and although it took well over a year of continual effort and blood, sweat and tears (all mine) I now have a dog who does not chase but who stops and looks to me tail wagging and waiting for his rewards of praise and being allowed to continue hunting when he sees livestock/birds etc. and who I took out on shoots twice a week in the last season beating and picking up, all done with kind, positive methods. 

The thing with punitive methods is what do you do if they don't work - do you keep on and on increasing the level of the shock, and then what if even that doesn't work or stops working? As somebody on here said, they knew a dog which didn't even respond to the highest shock level. What do you do then? Find something more and more painful to do to the dog to try to 'put him off'? Certainly when my dog was in full on chase mode the sensation of an insect crawling on his neck wouldn't have stopped him, you would probably have had to crack him on the head with a cricket bat to get his attention. The manufacturers recommend these collars aren't used for certain things, why is that? Because of all the additional problems and unwanted associations they can cause... You don't hear this about positive training methods, they can be used in all circumstances for all issues because they don't provoke such 'side effects' although of course they don't provide an overnight solution, as I said well over a year in my dog's case and I still take any opportunity to do additional reinforcement of it as well. It's all down to individual choice at the end of the day and I don't pretend to know everyone's individual circumstances or what's best for their dogs but for me I couldn't risk damaging the relationship I have with my dogs.

I can see why some knowlegable and responsible people like ClaireyS are in favour of using E-collars in certain circumstances. It might be the diffrence between having the dog pts. or not.
BUT. Not everyone that uses an electric collar will be a responsible and caring owner. Some will unknowingly make problems worse, by giving the dog unwanted associations, as  mentioned above. And some people will like the power it gives them over the dog. It's a fact that some people like inflicting pain on others, for that particular kind of person an e-collar and a dog will be like a great new toy :-(

Most of us won't even think along those lines, it being so unbelievable that someone would actually misuse a device like that. But as long as they are obtainable, some dogs will suffer at the hands of their owners through it. Because of that I think they should be illegal.

I believe there is a place for their very rare use, but they should only be available for use by a suitable behaviourist/trainer, and be licensed to use them.  They should not be available to all and sundry.

I agree with you there brainless, they should not be on sale to the general public. Mind you having seen the misuse of check chains, spray collars and sonic collars i don't think they should either. For some reason everyone is so opposed to e collars, and yet to the dog so many other things can be just as unpleasant, yet people don't even think twice about using them. Whilst i don't agree with e collars per se, i think people that are so opposed to them also need to fully analyse exactly what other aversives they might be using, i did when i wrote the essay and it opened my eyes alot.

I would never ever use one. Open to the idea that the collars can work by the right people in the right situations but theres no guarantee when the collars are sold that the person buying it knows how to use it properly or will use it in the right situation.

I agree with brainless. I think there is a place for them, but they should be used by trained proffesionals, not be available for anybody to use. Even somebody using it with the best intentions could get it wrong, it's that same as with clicker training (or any training for that matter) - timing is critical, but with the e-collar a miss-timed zap could cause a detrimental negative association. (I'm not sugesting people who have used them here have caused problems).

Well I never took up those offers and although it took well over a year of continual effort and blood, sweat and tears (all mine) I now have a dog who does not chase but who stops and looks to me tail wagging and waiting for his rewards of praise and being allowed to continue hunting when he sees livestock/birds etc. and who I took out on shoots twice a week in the last season beating and picking up, all done with kind, positive meth

Great to hear, good for you :)

Sheep chasing dogs have one of 2 things happen - either the collar is way too low and the dog continues, the owners notch it up over time and the dog just powers through it (due to the slow rising of the levels) or, the dog is shocked on a high and painful level where it screams and yelps. A video showed this a while ago on tv.

Lindsay
x

I watched cesear millan use one on telly the other night to cure a dog of attacking tyres.
I think they have there place and in experianced hands they can be effective, I would rather see some sort of required training and qulification for there use than an outright ban.
In my opinion they are in a par with using spurs when riding a horse, on the correct person they are an aid not a torture device.

kao kate - I agree re the electric collars with dogs ONLY with extreme situations like the one you said you saw on Cesar Millan.  I also saw that, and I also saw him training dogs to avoid rattle snakes.  He succeeded in the dog avoiding the rattle snake from metres away after just two approaches to the cage with the snake in it - before that the dog went right up to the cage, not realising what the danger was. it was sparked from a client of his losing her dog from a rattle snake bite on a walk.  He put the collar on himself too to show that its not any worse than getting stuck on electric fencing.  The dog then associated the snake with the shock/buzz, and avoided that and any other snake from then on.  In that situation it can not only save a dogs life - it can save the owners life too because the dog warns the owner when they are near a snake.  How else do you teach them that a rattle snake would kill them if it bit them?
I agree though in the right hands only - the majority of dog owners would not know how to use it.  I don't like the idea of using it for 'fencing' as in keeping a dog in the yard. 

As for spurs on horses - i have to disagree.  Just go to youtube and type in Alexander Nevzorov - he does everything (high school dressage) without spurs, or bits and usually no saddle too.  I've seen the most appalling abuse using spurs on horses - and that is by top trainers.  There's no need for them if you train the horse to respond to the lightest touch - something which is possible with all horses.

Which makes me think about the electric collar again - i would love to hear how a dog can be taught the danger of a snake without this method, how does a dog learn about the danger.  I thought it was well done and the dog was not in distress, it just gave it a shock.  If anyone here has ever got a shock from an electric fence, its no biggie!

>How else do you teach them that a rattle snake would kill them if it bit them?

You can't - dogs have no concept of death, so cannot be taught that something 'might kill them'. You can teach a dog to avoid something, but it'll never understand why.

>If anyone here has ever got a shock from an electric fence, its no biggie!

I have - I leaned across a fence to pick something up and my leg (in jeans) touched the wire. It b****y hurt, and I had a red burned stripe on my leg which took several days to fade. My son, however, could hold the wire and only feel a 'jerking tingle' from it. Over the years several of my dogs have touched electric stock fences; one was so scared she ran screaming three-quarters of a mile home, crossing two main roads to get there; another only ran yelping for about 100 yards, and it took about three months to be able to walk him in that bit of the field again. So anything that causes that sort of effect on a pet shouldn't be available to the general public!

As I sit here wearing my (fantastic) tens machine. I can assure you the Electic clollar is NOTHING like the tens. I 'knew someone' years ago who could control their dog, so she bought an electic collar, initially it did work, but after a while all it did was toughen the poor dog up. One day the Lady (Yes thats what she thought she was!) said mmm! I think I will shave his neck and see if that works any better. I wanted to say to her Yes and pop his leg in a bucket of water at the same time....My dogs will do anything for me . they trust me I have trained them and they just want to please me, they know I would never ask them to do anything that would put them in danger. p.s. this 'lady' also sent her kids away to be trained...........

sorry I was so keen to post that my post should have read could not train her dog

The rouble with all of these televised dog trainers is that Joe Public sees their methods as 100% effective, ergo gospel - including devices such as electric collars  

I've watched several of CM's shows (no more though, I can't stand the man!) and he regularly "tames" (rather than "trains") dogs using at least a prong collar :(   Even with the benefit of heavy editing and no reference to how long his methods take to reform the dog, he doesn't seem to have many (if any) of his cases resolved by using only a flat leather collar.  That to me suggests that dogs are more likely to be broken than rehabilitated and unfortunately when pet owners try using his same methods the results could well be catastrophic for all conerned - not least the dogs!