Hi all

I've been reading the site for a while, but have never posted.  I've now come across a problem and could really do with some advice.  I have a 7 year GSD neutered bitch and a 6 month Leonberger dog, who on the whole get on well, occasionally however for seemingly no reason the GSD goes for the little one and has done some damage.  She has lived with a St Bernard before and they got on fine (although she was definitely the boss!), and as I say 99% of the time she gets on with the Leo.  Its only happened 3 or 4 times since we got him 4 months ago but it's the fact she's so unpredictable that's worrying, you just don't see it coming.  I expected her to put him in his place when he annoyed her but this is unacceptable.  I've followed all the usual advice i.e. not giving him more attention than her, and always feeding her first.  Have been supervising them all the time, and hoping once he gets full size she'll think better of it!  Any ideas???

Hi
I think a bit more info may be required for people to help.....questions that spring to my mind are as follows:

1.  Is the GSD bitch well socialised and does she get on well normally with all other dogs of both sexes and all ages?
2.  Does the GSD have somewhere to go to escape from the Leo if he gets OTT?
3.  What did you do to prepare the GSD for the arrival of the pup?  Had she had plenty of exposure to youngsters recently?
4.  What were the circumstances surrounding each of the 3-4 episodes that you cite?  What resources were involved?  Where did they take place?  Who was there?  What happened afterwards?
5.  How much damage was done in each of the 3-4 episodes?

Answers to these questions may help to give a bit more insight....

did she leave her mum and litter mates early? just a thought but if so maybe she just doesn;t know how much a telling off should be (obviously without knowing the scale of the damage dunno if this could be right or not)

GSD is a chaser, fine with calm laid back dogs but wary of fast moving/excited dogs. 
Leo is very calm pup (have taken him to the vets several times as I'm convinced there's something wrong with him, never known a pup like him!) and doesn't really bother her, generally her that instigates play - but she could escape if she wanted. 
Maybe I was a bit naive to believe that because she'd lived with another dog she would be fine - she had met several puppies but she seemed nervous around them.  This is my thinking behind it stopping when he gets bigger??
The worst case was when he was 4 months, and the only thing I can think triggered it was he drank out of a bucket she was also drinking from.  This resulted in 16 stiches to his nose.  Only me there and I had to phsically pull her off.  Other incidents also happened whilst I was there (partner in vicinity), 2 outside when she had a ball (but he didn't try to take it), and once in the kitchen whilst I was preparing our food (they are only fed from bowls, after we've eaten, or treats whilst training so don't think it was food related???), no damage but a lot of noise, shouting her seemed to stop it.
Afterwards, everything immediately back to normal - he holds no grudges, and she wants to play.  Seems strange to me but is that because I'm not thinking 'dog'??!
Thanks for your interest, look forward to your advice

Hi Susieq,

Bitches generally are the top dog of the house, some just naturally are accepted as such, others will show their dominance to another dog.

Yours is laying down the law in her home with your Leonberger pup, it is a shame that she feels she needs to actually bite to make her point as your Leo is very laid back and there is no need for her to be this way with him. If he were challenging her I could understand her behaviour much more, bitches or the Alpha's of either sex will generally just give that look, or perhaps snarl or show teeth to put a pup in it's place, especially a male. Drawing blood is usually not part of the ritual, though it does happen. :-(

She will tell him off quite a bit, but due to the fact that she really bites I think until your Leo is over 2years old you will need to make sure that they are constantly supervised, she does not wish to share, so make sure as much as you can that you can keep your Leo away from her. When you are out I would personally segregate aswell.

I'm hoping that once he is an adult things will be totally different, so give it that amount of time.  Just be vigilant and realise that she obviously has a very short fuse with him.  When he is an adult she will know that he respects her by his body language and will not feel the need to enforce it.

Hi Carrington, thanks for your thoughts, I was hoping someone would say that! 

I keep them seperate all the time unless I'm there to supervise, not ideal situation but can't bear the thought of the little fella being subjected to that whilst I wasn't about.  To make matters worse my next door neighbours dog had a go at him the other day, and then a young GSD at training class.  He's such a lovely little chap I can't imagine why this is happening - I try not to mother him,and he just seems to take it in his stride but I just hope it doesn't affect him in the long term. 

Susieq
What is the bite inhibition of the GSD generally like?  Around humans, other dogs etc......her behaviour does seem a bit OTT.........is she giving warnings that are being ignored by the Leo or is she just going straight in with the bite?

Have just seen your post above about two other dogs now having a go at your pup.  What were the circumstances?  What did the trainer have to say about the GSD at training class having a go?  (Am just trying to see if there is a reason why this chappie appears to being picked on rather a lot. )  I think you need to find a selection of calm, friendly dogs to socialise your pup with asap.

She's never bitten another dog (she had scraps with the Bernard but no damage to either), and is fantastic with people.  She didn't leave her litter mates till 12 weeks, and we never had a problem with play biting/mouthing.  She plays rough with the pup (is this because she was used to playing with a fully grown Bernard?), and it's generally her that gets over-excited rather than him!  The bit that is really worrying me is that there is no warning at all, so it's not even giving me chance to intervene before it kicks off.

With my neighbours dog, I came out of my gate with him on a lead and her dog ran straight over barking, grabbed a few tufts of fur out of his face then ran off.  At training class they were all on leads and the GSD just lunged at him, the trainer just said the GSD was over-exuberant and to give him a wide berth.  My lad was minding his own business on both occasions.

Soooo hard, probably impossible to second guess what is going on without actually seeing.  If your GSD bitch is normally friendly and has been well socialised and would usually give a warning to another dog before going in for the bite I wonder if it could be a pain response to the pup landing or jumping on somewhere that hurts?

Is the neighbours dog normally friendly and sociable?  In other words was it uncharacteristic behaviour for him to run at your pup? 

Does the pup have a black mask?  Sometimes some dogs have difficulty in gauging the expression of a black dog. 

Other than that, I'm stumped....sorry.

and we never had a problem with play biting/mouthing.

Does this mean she didn't play bite or mouth you or other dogs as a pup? Often the worst bites come from dogs that weren't nippy pups as they simply haven't learnt how to control their own strength.

It sounds like there are more issues than this but it might play a part.

Hi Susieq,

I was reading your post with interest.  I'm wondering if there is some kind of signal that your Leo is giving off?

I say this because I used to have a very 'dog dominant' GSD, albeit she didn't actually go as far as your GSD by inflicting deep wounds, just bruises.

We had our bitch alongside other dogs and she was always 'top dog' by her body language and behaviour, although dog & people sociable, if pushed with other dogs, she would re-inforce her position by grabbing very hard until the other dog backed off. Eventually she became the 'only dog in the house', then after a few months we got our male Briard who from the sounds of it, is just like your Leo. He was/is laid back to the point of lifelessness on some occasions. Nothing riles him and he takes everything in his stride. Ella, my old GSD laid the ground rules from day one, like yours, she instigated play, like yours, she was nasty around food bowls (even empty ones) and toys. She really turned on him when he was about 5 months - in the garden - seemingly over nothing. She did draw blood - thankfully it was superficial. As he grew up they became friends. He was twice the size of her by 10 months but this wasn't why they became friends - they found their own level with supervised - but not overly interfering guidance from me. Clearly you cannot 'back off and not interfere' as she is unpredicatable. BUT, Ella DID bite without warning, done in the blink of an eye and none of us was any the wiser as to why she had done it. A bit like you.

My Briard was also victimised by other dogs at training and when out on walks. Again, he would do absolutely nothing to deserve it but was always the target for other dogs,despite his size. When he reached 18 months, I think that he had finally had enough, another older, larger, Briard flew at him and set out to hurt him, he finally retaliated and proved to himself that he 'could' cope. Resulting in him 'lunging' at every other dog that came near him for a long time. Please don't let this be the case with your lovely Leo! But as somebody else on here said, as we can't see it, it's very hard to analyse what is actually going on. Dog behaviour and body language is so hard to gauge even when we witness it. It would be irresponsible of anybody to give firm advice.

Please consult a behaviourist before too long as it may help you understand what signals are being relayed by your bitch and stop your Leo turning into a dog that thinks he has to 'fight or flight'. Good luck, please let us know how you get on :)

Hi Guys

Many thanks for your thoughts, unfortunately we've just returned from another visit to the vet (no stiches but nasty gash), I think I'm going to have to muzzle her when they're together.  Something that did surprise me was the vet suggested raising HIS position to top-dog, but surely this put him in more danger??  - thought this may make an interesting discussion!

Neighbours dog is fairly unpredictable anyway so wasn't surprised by that one, and my Leo does have black mask so maybe that has something to do with it.

Your comments are much appreciated - I think my next step is the behaviourist as suggested.

The vet could be on to something. If she feels unsure of her place, but you are reinforcing the fact that you think she is top dog (feeding her first etc.) then it could be forcing her to try & show him who the boss is?? I think that confusion over hierarchy is the biggest cause of  problems, as generally the 'top dog' does not need to resort to violence and a follower will not challenge a top dog, but when the positions are not clear, they need to try & figure out whos who.

We have a dominant male lab cross (14 yrs old), when we got our pup we treated the old boy as top dog (feeding/fussing first etc..) believing this would stop any problems. We started to see that the old dog was being a bit of a bully, nothing aggressive, just if anyone was fussing the pup then the old dog would push himself inbetween, he would also push the pup out of the way to go through doors first, things like that. We started to treat the pup as top dog and things have changed. The old dog will step back to let the pup go through door first, if the pup is being fussed and the old dog does come over, he will wait patiently to share in the fussing. If they were both being givven a treat at the same time, they would both snatch, now they wait patiently.

I am a believer in the pack theories (dog pack, not wolf pack). I also think Cesar Millin is brilliant, he says that dogs communicate though body language & energy. I thought the energy bit was maybee to wierd, but givving it thought I do believe it. Think of the saying 'could cut the air with a knife' refering to the atmosphere between people. We can all 'feel' the sadness, happyness, confidence of other people it make sense that a dog can do this too. In fact as they don't rely on verbal communication, they are bound to be better than us at feeling this type of 'energy'.

My pup is very laid back. When he has met dogs at he vets he sits calmly, with no unfiendly/fearful/exited/dominant body language whatsoever, yet, most dogs will have a go at him :( He doesn't react whatso ever. The other dogs must be reacting to something, I think they get confused, they can tell he is a puppy (even though he is huge), but he gives of an aura of being self assured, sort of 'I'm the man' in a calm, non cocky type of way, very hard to explain.

Anyway, enough of my rambling on, I'm sure most people will totally disagree with me, but this is just my view on things :)

A behaviourist would definately be the way forward. It's easy for all of us who can't see exactly whats going on to give advice/suggestions, but a good behaviorist will be able to see the problems for himself & know the best way to sort it oot. Do your vets reccomend any behaviourists?

Hi,

I too have a 6 months old Leo :).
Knowing how sensitive these dogs can be I think you should really try to make sure he has nice experiences with dogs or you might have trouble later.
If I was you I would try to find few friendly dogs and let him run with them regularly so he learns proper doggy language and the fact that not all dogs will attack him.
My first Leo got attacked by a rotti when she was about 7 months old...
No problems straight away but when she got older she could not be trusted with anything that resembeled a Rotti!
She was fine with other dogs but would go to attack mode if she saw a rotti...

Sorry, have been away for a few days but I don't agree with your vet at all, not because it is not a good idea, but a very impractical idea, yes you can feed him first and fuss your Leo and do all the things that may accertain him a higher ranking order in your presence, with his size and if it were with another male or even smaller bitch you could probably push him to a higher rank, but he is living with a GSD bitch. :-(

There is no way your dominant bitch is going to allow any male to out rank her, even if he grows to be as big as a house she is certainly a match for him, Leo's being more on the placid side to the aggressive means she can dominate him easily. It is a no go as far as I am concerned.

The main issue here is his age, he's a big dog, and  he is a threat to her and to many, many other dogs, large and giant breed dogs during their adolescent months are more likely to be attacked than any other type of dog, GSD's are also in that same category.  He is likely to have many dogs on his walks try to put him in his place, I'm afraid it is the downside to having male youngsters and in particular larger dogs.

It passes.............. I promise it does pass, you need to protect him at this vital time, inside and outside, there is nothing wrong with him, he is doing nothing wrong, it is purely his age, he virutally has a sign on his head right now, saying come and attack and abuse me and put me in my place! Nothing he can do about it, or you, except be very vigilant and protect him, lead him when other dogs are around, be more prepared for him being told off than greeted warmly.

As I said before when he reaches two all will change, he will be an almost adult with a different body language and looked at by your bitch and other dogs in a completley different way.

As for your bitch, she would be getting a real chastising from me whenever she so much as bared her teeth and would be sent to segregation, unfortuntaley she can not be left to sort things out in a doggie way which is the way I would always leave animals to sort out rank, as she bites, so I would take away her powers by not allowing her any growling, or one upmanship, (I would have to assertain myself as the dominant bitch) this is the only thing you can remove from her, it will not de-rank her as your vet suggested, but will control her in your prescence, with the view that you find it unacceptable as her master to show this behaviour.

However, if you do not have a strong character (not everyone does :-) ) where one look or word from you will make her stop and listen, then you won't have the power to chastise a dominant bitch, so just remove her from him, or if it is looking dangerous walk away with your Leo. :-)

I hope that things will settle and that you will cope ok with the situation, it is horrible when things like this happen. What a shame she is reacting so nastily to this young dog.  The muzzle is an idea you may have to use.

Wishing you all the best, keep us informed. :-)

I totally agree with what Carrington says. I had a male GSD many years ago and when he was 14 months old I introduced a pup into our household (also a male GSD) Our adult male sulked and wouldnt even look at the pup. However he rather sneakily tried to nip the pup when he thought our back was turned. It wasnt a bite, it was a nip which didnt draw any blood etc. The pup had done nothing for the nip to be instigated. We corrected him straight away by telling him "no" and "naughty" and then we walked away and ignored him for a period. There were no real problems after this. But we did make sure that we gave our first GSD lots of fuss and attention to make him feel special and so he knew he wasnt being replaced and both dogs lived in harmony with no issues. Even when we introduced our third dog (a CKC cross) we rescued ,they all got on really well. They could even eat their food at the same time next to each other with no problems. Its also a matter of reading your dogs and their body language. It was very easy with our first GSD as he had a very expressive face and if he started to become upset at something he would start to frown and stare intently, but a stern "oi" would remind him that he needed to behave.

Thanks again for your posts.  No further incidents to report.  I have kept them apart when there's food/toys about and don't leave bowls on the floor, and he's learning to keep his distance when she's having a drink etc. I'd rather not resort to the muzzle but will if I have to.  I didn't feel comfortable raising him to top-dog as vet suggested, although I understood his theory behind it. 

During the last couple of weeks he seems to have found his independance and has started ignoring me on walks (recal up till then had been A1!), and getting very over-excited when meeting people (jumping and nipping).  I understand it's too early for adolesence for such a large breed, is he just testing me?  He's been to puppy classes, and I've been training him at home every day.

I understand it's too early for adolesence for such a large breed, is he just testing me?  He's been to puppy classes, and I've been training him at home every day.

:-D No he is not testing you, though I guess to many it sure does feel like that! :-)

He's not too young to start having a mind of his own, as a wee pup he has learnt to trust you you are his carer and giver of food, you have socialised him and taught him many commands and are continuing to do so, you've done everything that you should do. :-) And because of this he is now confident and happy. (Apart from the odd spat with your GSD) He's confident enough to think the whole world is like his safety net at home, so he has no fear, his judegement will not always be right with him being young and more than ever he needs you to protect him.

His own instincts and callings are beginning to take over, he has forgotten nothing that you have taught him, it is all still there, trouble is he can not yet control his own instincts and basically does not know that he should. Sooooo..... you have to start to put him on a long line to keep him in check, when other dogs and people are around, it is not a backwards step, but you need to now be a little stricter with him, your voice and eye contact needs to be stronger to control his behaviour around other people, many people get upset if a dog jumps up at them and especially nips. His recall will go from time to time, which is why a long line is a great training method throughout this time, you can have the most perfect pup who has been brilliant up until now, and then everything seems to go to pot, many owners think they have done something wrong....... no, it is just a stage, but you have to now be at your strongest with him.

He will eventually learn if you keep up with the training you are giving him, that you over-ride any instincts that he has, that your commands are priority to anything he may have in mind. Never loose your temper with him, just repeat and repeat and repeat a command until he does it, practise holding your voice and eye contact with him, a dog like a child can always tell if you really mean something or if they are going to be allowed to get away with it. ;-) Continue to praise when he obeys, he's not purposely being disobediant, believe me all dogs go through these stages, many people give up and the highest amount of dogs end up in rescue at this time. :-(

I know your Leo is in no danger of this happening if you have got a GSD through this stage you can certainly cope with your Leo. :-)

Just reign him in now and I strongly suggest the long line. :-)

When our other dogs are grown and well behaved, we forget how difficult the adolescent months can be