Did anyone else see the interview with the Rough Collie breeders where the daughter stated that she does'nt give her dogs lots of excercise as it makes them too 'leggy' and the nutrition  from their food then goes into growing their coats instead of building muscle .

I'm sorry but I totally disagree with her - of course youngsters need to have their excercise regulated whilst they are growing rapidly but ALL dogs need  to be given enough excercise - I would have thought that building muscle is just as important for a good show dog as having a glorious coat ! and heaven help the breeds where this is not true ( mind you having watched this breed from the ring side I think that the good movers are as rare as hen's teeth )

Yvonne

yes I saw that! Made me wonder too......

so she's saying that the nutrition from the food goes into the coat, rather than being used in exercise??

hmmmmmm..........

I wonder how the dogs would look without the coat? Are they in good condition muscularly??

Yes I to listened to the report-I would have thought that excercise was paramount to not only build up muscle but also to socialise.

There was me looking at my Affenpinscher thinking what have I done to you-he has legs like Jessica Rabbit !!!  However what a super cheeky temperament-walks in the hills of Cheshire will be kept on the list !!

in my breed too much exercise as a youngster can make them leggy but once they are mature it shouldnt matter as long as they are getting a decent diet.

Rough collies are a working breed, she didnt say how much exercise they get but im assuming not alot.

I saw that too, and it got me wondering what the theory is.

I have Irish Setters as well Claire, and they just are leggy as youngsters. I just don't understand how exercise could make that happen.

Is anyone able to explain?

Dawn R.

I was told that Fagan was leggy as a youngster due to over exercise.  To be honest I think it was just him, he didnt eat enough and loved to run so he was a skinny thing - at 4 years old he has finally matured into a lovely looking dog.  Alf on the other hand didnt have as much exercise as a youngster due to Kennel Cough and having a bad leg, he also LOVES his food and his leggy stage only lasted a matter of weeks before he caught up with himself.  I know alot of Irish breeders recommend not to let them off the lead until they are a year old due to this.  I personally think it is to do with the dog and the breeding as to whether they get leggy or not.

Hi Claire, I currently have an Irish puppy of 15 weeks, and it's quite a worry isn't it thinking ''is he getting too much exercise'' ''is he eating the right food'' ''is he developing OK''. Check his boy bits, check his mouth. I'm worn out trying to do the best thing for him.

Dawn R.

I think it was an excuse - would take a lot of time to exercise 15 dogs :) I wonder how many people will see that as the green light to not exercise their dogs much any more :(

ooh is that him in the pic - how sweet !  Look forward to meeting you at some shows :)

you can only do your best for them, everyone has different ideas on what is best. 

I met a woman out walking recently who had a red setter that didn't get off the lead.  i think the pup was approx 8 months and she was concerned about bones etc.  Does this affect the socialisation for the pup if it is meeting other dogs on the lead all the time?

i felt it was an excuse too, i bet she doesnt have time to exercise all those collies and i must admit it was the first time on crufts i actually saw dogs kept in kennels. surely a kenelled dog needs to come out at least 3/4 times a day if only for a short time? the kennels didnt look very big either

i saw it and immediately she said it was ranting about it. It was an appalling and irresponsible thing to say on a tv programme and just encourages the anti show dog brigadem Am completely fuming!!! :(

A shameful comment to make - whether on live TV or not it showed a complete disregard IMO for their dogs' most basic needs and will have serious repercussions on the reputation of any of us who show dogs if it's believed to be the norm

I've not met a breed yet that didn't reach a leggy stage - it's called growing - they don't do it in perfect harmony/balance any more than us humans do!  Gangly pups/juniors are just the equivalent of our own gangly youths/teens.

Call me old fashioned but I wasn't best impressed to see their two 11.5 year olds living a kennel life either - not that it looked the most spacious set up for any of the dogs but seemed worse again for the veterans who IMO should be enjoying well earned retirment cuddled up in front of the hearth when not being *properly* exercised :(

Teri

I watched this and was left with the impression that the dogs were owned because they are shown, not because they were part of the family :(  (not sure if that makes sense ?? )  kennels runs seemed awfully small for the size and number of dogs :(

I also got the impression from the exercise comment that these collies must have evolved to work with sheep that came running when they barked, why else would exercise be bad for a collie?  I always thought that collies needed plenty of exercise and plenty of brain stimulation to be happy

Must admit, I did wonder if this was normal for collie owners :(

I agree with everyone else.

I can't see how a dog can develop proper muscles without a proper amount of excersise.

I wish my mum had made me run around more when I was young and growing :)

Seriously, I too would like to hear what is the belief of dog growing leggy if it gets exercised based on?
Maybe a dog that has been exercised is not so "down on their legs" and does not have the extra fat, that could possibly make it look leggier than a rolypoly pup?
Never heard this theory before...

Well I have thought that a lot of breeds are loosing the length of leg, so maybe they all need more exercise./

>I met a woman out walking recently who had a red setter that didn't get off the lead.  i think the pup was approx 8 months and she was concerned about bones etc.  Does this affect the socialisation for the pup if it is meeting other dogs on the lead all the time?<

Don't know about the exercise making dogs 'leggy', my youngest was (well still is really) all legs and she is very tall for her age but hopefully her body will grow into them :)

But as for lead walking affecting socialisation? I would have to say no. None of my dogs are let off the lead mainly because I live in such a built up area and even the park/woods round here have direct access to main roads (including a bypass) quite easily so I wouldn't chance it. But I don't think my dogs are any the less sociable for it.

Have you visited the Blakes? Do you know how often the dogs are out of the kennels and running free in the paddock? They have lovely collies that are not the short fluffy looking roughs that you sometimes see. Miranda said they dont need too much exercise not that they dont need any and that she wants the nutrition for coat and body not just for coat. I'm sure that all the judges that have given their dogs CC's over the years have not found unmuscled over coated excuses for collies and having owned the breed record holder thats quite a number of CC's aswell. Kennelling is possibley an old fashioned way to keep dogs these days but that doesnt mean they are not happy exercised or stimulated dogs. Talk to them about their roughs and they talk with pride and obvious love of their dogs.

>Have you visited the Blakes? Do you know how often the dogs are out of the kennels and running free in the paddock?

That would be "No" and "No" again :)  Much the same as the millions watching the programme world wide I suspect!

I could have sworn she said "show dogs don't need much exercise" which I think you'll agree is a sweeping statement and, IMO at any rate, a totally inaccurate one ......

She did also refer to exercise making them "leggy" - again, this I find to be totally inaccurate as IME and that of friends' dogs across many breeds, "legginess" is a normal part of growing and maturing

Perhaps those closest to them and having had the opportunity of hands on examination of their successful dogs are justifiably annoyed on their behalf however it was they themselves who put their housing conditions, opinions on exercise and general husbandry up for scrutiny and, it seems from comments here, left a somewhat poor impression on viewers.

I saw it and I too thought she only said 'coats' not body and coats?
Those that know them might get defensive but the rest of us can only go by what we see/hear on the tv.
Although I would have preferred to see the 'oldies' in the house - but thats just my feelings - I don't doubt for a minute that she does love each and every one of them.

Having just watched the Working and Pastoral Day on DVD that was recorded for me I can say for certain she said what I have highlighted. I won't argue about the legginess because neither of us can prove the point either way :-P :-D  However I do know others that hold the same view.

Having just listened to it again, It seems we are BOTH right :)

Miranda said "SHOW DOGS do not need TOO much exercise" unfortunately as I had to catch up on it again through BBC iPlayer there was no rewind facility for me to accurately quote her remarks re leggyness and food going to body rather than coat (if that's what she said) and I ain't listening to another 40 mins or so of twaddle from the "pet presenters" just to catch another few words LOL.  Doubtless someone else will be in possession of a recording (probably me on the video+ hard-drive whatsit if I could only work it :-D )

Incidentally Barbara Blake didn't even seem to be sure how many they actually had which I must admit I find very strange, quote "we've got about 15"

This possibly sounds as though I'm disapproving of them or their dogs - which I guess is partly true if exercise is restricted because they are "show dogs" but, what I found more disturbing, was that such comments can easily be misconstrued or misinterpreted (most of us commenting on it here clearly heard something quite different to what you feel was being said or meant) and give credence to a personal theory about exercise which is not (to my knowledge) backed up by scientific fact. 

regards, Teri

From my observations,i think the members here who exercise their show dogs in the woods/brambles/beach are in the minority,not the majority.
My comments come more from long haired/coated show dog owners,comments such as:

"My dogs feet never touch the grass,concrete only"

"Don't pat my dog,you will break her hair"!!

"My dogs are not allowed to play with one another,because it will break/matt up their coats"

"My dogs are only allowed to eat kibble and NOTHING else,as fresh/wet foods stain their beards.They are not allowed to drink out of bowls,water bottles only"

"You let your dogs swim in salt/river water?? You must be mad!What about their coats??!!"

Well you get the general gist :(

just picking myself up off the floor Ktee ........I show a coated breed ....my dogs are run twice a day on  grass - and at this time of the year it's wet muddy grass at that ! - they rough and tumble with each other all the time - they eat a 'wet' food ( Naturediet) and a number of other tasty treats when they can get it such as horse and chicken poo and the contents of the bin if mums not quick enough  . Water is always available in large bowls and not content with just lapping it up I have a couple of 'show dogs' that bury their entire muzzles in the bowl and blow bubbles thus completely soaking their neck and front ( they usually follow this up by laying their heads lovingly on my lap leaving an interesting wet patch )

If any visitors come to the house  they have no option but to pat the dogs( an insistent Belgian is like a force of nature .... you come to my house you stroke my dogs ...they will SIT on you until you do !!!! )I don't think they are unique in their freedom to be dogs - showing is only a tiny part of their lives and I'm sure most owners of coated show dogs keep their dogs as family pets first and foremost .

Yvonne

I wasn't arguing about show dogs being mentiond just about the phrase of not needing exercise. Leaving that one little word out changes the whole gist of whats actually being said. What I or anyone else regards as too much could vary greatly and actually seeing the dogs playing happily with a well worn football in the paddocks wasn't just for the cameras there is no one else there who would use the football :) . Even I didnt mention the fact she said they had to be fit.
Just to clear another point up I haven't come down on either side of the argument as far as the legginess goes  myself but have heard other people in other breeds say the same rightly or wrongly.

I don't know where you get your information Ktee...I don't show and even I can say that your 'quotes' certainly don't apply to any of the exhibitors I know

>"You let your dogs swim in salt/river water?? You must be mad!What about their coats??!!"

I can tell you for a fact that a BoB winning dog (short coated, predominantly black) at Crufts 2007 swam in the sea and a freshwater river every weekend for 5 weeks before competing at Crufts. He was doing this purely for fun and exercise, however, the dog's owner partially attributes his win at Crufts to the fact that he was in top condition as a result of all the swimming. 

As for your other statements....the vast majority of 'show' dogs are on show a couple of days a month, if that.  Every other day of the year, they are pets and are treated as such.  I could direct you to photos of many 'show' dogs in my breed up to their ears in mud and generally being allowed to behave as dogs.

Am I allowed to link to this post - http://www.colliezuechter.com/forum/index.php?topic=1443.0 - I made on another forum yesterday? (Link won't work.) Not advertising anything, so I'll give it a go, Admin will remove it if it's not allowed.

Mine certainly run in woods, and live most of their lives up to their ears in mud if that's the weather conditions.

Along with Satincollie, I would be very surprised if the Blakes' Collies spend their time in kennels with no exercise, and I certainly don't know anyone in Roughs who keep their dogs like this - although I'm sure they're out there, as they are in all breeds. I suspect this was probably an ill-worded interview.

M.

I didn't personally see the bit about the Rough Collies but heard my mum and sister saying it did sound abit odd what she was saying.

My dogs are pets and they are also shown, I don't see why they can't have a normal pet life and play with other dogs up the fields and in the wood. They go in the water in they want and generally enjoy theirselves.

While young I do restrict their exercise as they are a big breed but if there aren't other big dogs about they go off lead to have a little run round, but I do my upmost to make sure they are socialising with all sorts of other dogs and animals while growing up.  Once they are 18 months I feel they are mature enough to take whatever exercise you can give them.

From my observations,i think the members here who exercise their show dogs in the woods/brambles/beach are in the minority,not the majority.
My comments come more from long haired/coated show dog owners,comments such as:


Why not do a poll Ktee and ask?

I certainly excercise mine in the woodland walk tht runs for miles beside my house.  When the weather is really really bad I tend those days to road/pathment walk but I would say 75% of the time it is in the woods.

Actually, Ktee is right. There are show people who say things like this, I've heard them myself. Usually I find its the little dogs, those up on the tables being groomed or stay in cages at shows. I have a coated breed and although they play in the dirt, swim in dirty water, roll around on grass, playfight, eat raw food, drink from large bowls etc etc. They are still turned out beautifully for show days, and if people want to stroke them, its nothing a quick flick with a slicker can't put right :) But even then I know a few leo people who won't let you touch their dogs before they go in the ring :)

I also restrict exercise when they are young, and no running up or down stairs, until they are at least 12 months old. They are socialised from a very young age with lots of different breeds, various ages of children (coming from a large family thats easy :) ) and joining training classes as soon as they are allowed (all have Bronze and Silver awards) and of course ringcraft :)

Anton wasn't over exercised but boy does he have legs!  Perfect for Cani-crossing, he, he!

>I don't know where you get your information Ktee..

These are all comments i have heard from show people.

I'm absolutely not tarring all show goers with the same brush,as obviously most people on here treat their dogs as pets first and give them the exercise etc that they need.

Brilliant photos M of your lovely gang, but I think they will disappear.

No probs Gillian, thought they might.

M.

shaynlola....i chuckled when i read your post as i once went for a quick leg stretch  on way to crufts and one of the hounds slipped her collar and jumped into a smelly canal nr birmingham....went on to get the ticket same day!!!
all mine swim regularly including my BOB and  CC at crufts winners!!

Lovely pictures M
You did the same as me, good day at Crufts on Sat....wet slimy sandy run on the beach on Sunday..well she had earned it! and the others loved it too.
My heavy coated girls like nothing better than mud, wet, sand, water, and rolling in nice smelly stuff, but they are soon sorted for a day in the rings.
Just a bit of time and effort on my part and they change from yucky smelly hairy beasts into lovely glossy hardy muscled show dogs.
Aileen.

Yes, the one who was at Crufts on Saturday also found a nice patch of fox poo to top off the sand and slime ...

I find that this is also another good reason to have a dog that conforms to its KC standard, whether it is a pet or for the show ring. The correct Collie coat does an excellent job of shrugging off the dirt.

M.

just what we did, Crufts Friday, saturday, mad run in the forest with their munster friends (who were also at crufts on Friday) Sunday a trip down to the beach for a good swim :)