Am so excited......Philippe has won the group!!!!!  (Giant Schnauzer)  Yippee!!!!!

Yep just seen, looking forward to seeing the German GSD later.

I gave him a ticket and BOB a few years ago now when he went on to win his first BIS......that was exciting.....but this is even more so as I do think he has a very good chance under Clare Coxall tomorrow evening....she has already given him a BIS.

Fantastic news! I will keep my eyes peeled on tonights show!

Yep just seen, looking forward to seeing the German GSD later.

Ditto to that!

I have a gorgeous Ch Ice Vom Steinhauerberg son and he is very proud of his Daddy winning the Reserve CC, his aunt Lararth Sassy for taking the bitch ticket, his uncle Lararth Sonny for his win in GC and his half-brother Videx Luigi for winning his class! :-) :-) :-)

What a great looking GSD......just a shame that it all seemed to get a bit too much for the handler.  Would love to see him outside.

Absolutely Molly, have seen him shown in a stadium, he is awesome, unfortunately his very young handler seemed a bit over awed, I think with an experienced handler the dog could have taken the group.

Shame about Zamp, we so hoped he'd take the group! :-(

I was pleased to see Phillippe win the working group, He is an Awesome dog, as for the shepherd....He looked awful, Ok, be nice for a shepherd to win the group, but let it be one that isnt scrabbling around the ring, with eyes possessed looking for its owner, that girl couldnt even get him to stand still. and yes, I believe he would have stood a chance with a more experienced handler in the big ring!

I agree - the GSD was badly let down by it's handler - I'm sure it can move well but we certainly did'nt see that yesterday - it looked a little out of control !.

Yvonne

i thought philipe ollivier  retired 2 years ago- it was in all the dog papers! so i was surprised to see him last year and again this year i presume he was unretired but they didnt mention it. i hope he wins tonight, its his 3rd time up for BIS! if not i guess he should retire this time (again)

Umm....double handling springs to my mind.....or in this case "lack of it last night".  Very difficult to double handle in the Crufts arena.  Having said that what a lovely change to see a "proper" GSD in the ring, one that looked as though it had substance and could certainly do a days work.

I love Phillippe, think he has always been a stunning dog and when I saw him in the group yesterday, knew he was going to win it. He would not have been brought out of retirement if they weren't sure he could go all the way. I hope he does, he deserves to win crufts. Just like Willy last year, the judges are in his favour. Thought both groups were stunning last night, was rather dissappointed with my group, the gundogs on Friday. Was that not the normal handler for the GSD, what a shame, absolutely threw its chances away. Congratulations to Lisa and her samy, they are members of our ringcraft club, there will be big celebrations on Tuesday at the AGM for her win!!!!

I think Phillippe only comes out for Crufts now, you dont see him in the dog papers anymore so im assuming he doesnt do other shows.

Phillippe went BIS at Midland Counties last year!

Hi,
Philip does do other show, but very few, as well as Midlands he came 2nd at LKA. I was benched next to him yesterday and he looks better than ever. My eyes will be watching Kevin tonight and my fingers will be crossed.
Good Luck Philip and Kevin. :-)
Ps Our girl got 3rd JB Trilled :-)

>Phillippe went BIS at Midland Counties last year!

blew that theory straight out of the water then !!!

I'm a fan of the Giant Schnauzer too - after winning 3 groups at Crufrs I hope he gets the BIS award!

ZT-A is extremely complimentary about Zamp, and very scathing of his poor young handler in her group report - a shame really. Would probably have been fairer to say that he is used to being shown in a very different style:

>Next the GSD Zamp Vom Themodos. What a heartbreaker - a marvellous dog who shows the correct Germanic type, with a front to die for. Great body and overall proportions. One I would loved to have given the group to but unfortunately it was not to be, as he had the bad handicap of an extremely poor handler who never at any point attempted to stand or move him to advantage. What a difference any one of our British handlers could have achieved with this wonderful dog. I was very impressed with his conformation and fantastic side gait, which I saw for a few strides when his handler wasn't blocking me off.

M.

I thought he was stunning and yes, he was disadvantaged by not being shown in the manner in which he's accustomed.  Have to say reading Zena's crit it's rather harsh and could have been more sympathetically worded.  Over and above I'm surprised and very disappointed when a judge (even more so one of her of her experience) makes the comment  "One I would loved to have given the group to" as it detracts from Phillipe's spectacular win IMO as she's basically stated he was not actually the best dog in the Group   Far better to have said "One I would have loved to have placed / done better by in the Group" or some such comment.

Agree that it's harshly worded, although I've confused things by posting in a Working Group thread - Zamp and Philippe wouldn't have met, of course. Some reflection on the Samoyed though.

M.

Duh - don't take much to confuse me either M LOL - I've got a pastoral breed and reported for the Gazette a few times on the group too so really should have known better :-D :-D :-D

OK, re-jig!  Will have dampened the glory from the Samoyed's win - still not right IMO.

LOL. I do find it a very strange critique, I have to say. As you say, knocks the Samoyed (although I think I'd manage to let it wash over me in her shoes!) and seems unnecessarily personal towards the handler - even if it were in a breed which doesn't have the challenges of a totally different style of showing, this seems a bit mean.

M.

I would be very upset if any judge ever wrote anything like that about a dog I was handling, blaming it compleatly on the handler.  Seems a little harsh to me and as a handler I think I would feel very upset, especially as I learn't this year, in the group ring, there are so many things that you are not allowed to do or let the dog do, I felt like I was no-longer in a dog show, but showing my dog off to the camera's to get some documentry footage. :(

Her write up on the Samoyed was suitably complimentary, by the way:

>So it had to be something really outstanding to top this line up (and she was) The Samoyed Bitch, owner Mrs Bobrowski's Ch Vandreem Imperial Hermioni By Berezniki really is something special. Her head is perfection, with super black pigment, she actually has a correct front under the wealth of coat, which is often lacking. She was so good to handle right through. As Clare was to say later, "All the bones were in the right place." Not overdone in angulation, which helps give the ideal length of stride, and absolutely true both ways. In beautiful sparkling coat and like the Aussie can never stand wrong. Her performance standing and moving was quite outstanding and she showed off this and her personality, both in the group and later in BIS. I was very proud of her. A great group to judge.

M.

To be honest I think the comment about the Pyrenean was not really needed either. If she accessed the dog as excellent before getting spooked then she could place based on that.  Why punish the dog. Unless they should be unphased by everything.

I hate give then take away critiques.

She judged our breed last year and I was really gobsmacked at the critique.  Some home truths but it become OTT and unnecessary in my opinion.  We can all fault pick :-)

where are you getting the write ups from ?

I have online membership on Our Dogs so I got mine from there.

To me, a critique should be a picture of the dog in words and the reasons why one dog was placed over another.  I cannot STAND the "nice head, moved well" or the "all the dogs are lovely" critiques.  They might please people who think their dogs are fantastic but in truth they show an extreme lack of knowledge on the part of the judge.  I'd much rather have a critique like Zena's - it might hurt a few feelings but at least she can explain her placings.

Debs

Hi ClaireyS

DOG WORLD produce them free to all :)

I don't personally think you need to write a critique neither that is all negative which I have seen not just from her.

I agree about the "all dog are lovely" nonsense but perhaps direction would be more constructive. 

Hi Debs

I totally agree with all but your last sentence there - reading a crit or writing one, it should conjure up a visual image of the exhibit(s) on the day with virtues and failings mentioned otherwise how else do those not there (or there and not placed so well for eg) best follow how conclusions are reached :)

That said, I don't think it's necessary to be rude about an exhibit or handler - which in the case of the GSD then I feel strongly she was.  There are a great many ways of making the same point without berating someone, particularly when both handler and dog were totally unfamiliar with the UK show scene.  I don't know if the GSDs handler had any ownership of the dog or was employed as a handler but the crit basically says she blew it - something for which she may be affected in more ways than one in the future handling of this or any other dog.

I agree the negatives should be balanced with the positives - which the ones fron Zena are.  I find it terribly hard at times to find something nice to say at all in a critique when I've had truly awful dogs under me.

I'd so much rather see a critique like Zena's than the Terrier or Hound one - neither one of those describes the dogs at all IMO.

OK so the comments about the GSDs handler may have been a bit harsh to some but she was describing what she saw in front of her.

Debs

Couldn't agree more Debs, I think critiques that actually describe the dogs placed in any constructive manner (strengths AND weaknesses) are few and far between, and I thoroughly enjoy reading them when they appear.

Nevertheless, there are constructive and non-constructive ways of saying things, and the constructive will get my vote every time.

M.

But as said, if this GSD handler was employeed or is a professional handler, this could affect her career.

I'm afraid this judge is always harsh - if theres nothing good about the dog it shouldnt be in a position to be given a critique, and in most of hers there are far more negatives than positives. Not the exhibitors favourite from what I can make out.

> Ch Ice Vom Steinhauerberg

oh! my bf and i saw him sitting on his bench, he was beautiful!

But as said, if this GSD handler was employeed or is a professional handler, this could affect her career.

IF she's a proffesional handler and charges people money to handle like that I would hope it WOULD affect her career!!  If I'd paid someone to handle my dog and they made that much of a pigs ear of it I wouldn't be too happy at all!

Debs

I'm afraid this judge is always harsh

I guess it's a matter of personal experience isn't it.  I've had two critiques in two different breeds from  her last year and loved them both.  She was very comlimentary and also pointed out why she liked 1st over 2nd etc.  Anything negative was said in diplomatic way.  I've been exhibiting my dogs under her for years and never had an overly harsh critique. 

Debs

>I'm afraid this judge is always harsh - if theres nothing good about the dog it shouldnt be in a position to be given a critique, and in most of hers there are far more negatives than positives. Not the exhibitors favourite from what I can make out.

I believe I'm right in saying that I actually used to find this judge's critiques rather bland - it was often apparent to me who had written it before I got as far as looking at the judge's name. Perhaps the new style is a reaction to feedback on this?

M.

It might also be worth pointing out that she doesn't just take notes and then write the critique at home as most people do.  The writing she does when the winners are stood in front of her IS the whole critique and gets handed straight in after the CC, BOB and other winners names have been added.  I'd love to have the ability to do that - it's not easy.

Debs

I must admit I have only had nice critiques from ZT-A personally and she has given me some great results. :)

She is also judging another of my breeds later this year and I can't wait to see what she thinks of our young girl.

>The writing she does when the winners are stood in front of her IS the whole critique and gets handed straight in after the CC, BOB and other winners names have been added

Perhaps that's why sometimes they are not as sympathetically worded as they could be LOL.  I once wrote my first line as "Yikes - a GSD????" when judging a BSD class but I certainly wouldn't have wanted to phrase it like that in my printed critique!  It was just the easiest way of reminding myself what my genuine first impression was when the exhibit came in the ring. 

Fortunately on closer examination although by no means the best of type it nevertheless was not sufficiently bad to warrant withholding a second place (only 2 in the class).  My point is however that the exhibitor had paid a substantial sum of money to enter under me, travelled a considerable way, and - more importantly IMO - given me the priviledge and courtesy of entering the dog under me so I felt (and still do) dutybound to give a courteous BUT constructive critique, albeit not a complimentary one :)

Well, we will always have our own opinions, but I know many people who feel the same as me - not just my breed, and not as lowly as I ;-)

Well if it had been written about me I'd be upset at first but then would watch and watch what I had done and learn from it.  Maybe it will be BIS next year!

IF she's a proffesional handler and charges people money to handle like that I would hope it WOULD affect her career!!  If I'd paid someone to handle my dog and they made that much of a pigs ear of it I wouldn't be too happy at all!

I do not know her personally but apparently the handler is only 14yrs old and owns Zamp.

Wouldn't it be nice to think she'd be encouraged by all - judges in the middle of the ring and all those ringside?

I dread to think how I'd perform under the pressure of an unfamiliar showing style in an unfamiliar country speaking a foreign language at this level.  I struggled showing in European shows with a relatively easy bitch to show.

C'mon guys!!!!!

I thought I'd read that she was only 14, but couldn't find where I'd read it to corroborate it. Another reason that I thought the report was unfairly worded, really.

M.

>I do not know her personally but apparently the handler is only 14yrs old and owns Zamp.
>Wouldn't it be nice to think she'd be encouraged by all - judges in the middle of the ring and all those ringside?

Her age is irrelevant, unless she's competing in Junior Handling. Competing for the Group at a major Championship show is serious stuff; all the dogs will (should!) be top-notch, so placing them is a matter of hair-splitting. It's not very clever to risk blowing it - as was shown. A shame, but in a grown-up game you play by grown-up rules.

Well said Debs2004 :) :) :)

On the continent these breeds are shown and gaited very differently from here (in particular at Crufts where there even stricter rules apply - or more correctly the all encompassing strict rules are more effectively enforced!)

I haven't seen this dog shown overseas so cannot comment - perhaps his young handler shows him exceptionally well in a much larger area, gaiting for a significantly longer period and on a completely different surface????  Over and above which handlers change regularly as the dogs are lapped because they are gaited extensively during assessment.  Very possibly nothing about the Crufts venue and main arena bore any resemblance to what this pair were used to - OK, the dog may have performed better with a different handler but perhaps not because he is possibly used only to responding to vociferous outside attraction.

Had the group judge's criticism been constructive I could see the point but IMO it was destructive instead.  Foreign dogs with foreign handlers are not necessarily playing on a level playing field coming to Crufts unless they have had the benefit of attending several times before and are also familiar with our rules and regs (not just digesting the written word but with a true depth of understanding through experience etc).  It doesn't seem as though this young handler was au fait with what the Crufts experience would be but certainly shouldnt take away from the fact that she owns an outstanding dog, in immaculate physical condition and with what seemed a superb temperament - she should be applauded for playing a part in that alone! 

Let's hope this unsavoury reference to a Brittish handler being likely to have done a better job does not put off other foreign exhibitors handling their own dogs with pride if that's which they wish to do.

Let's hope this unsavoury reference to a Brittish handler being likely to have done a better job does not put off other foreign exhibitors handling their own dogs with pride if that's which they wish to do.

I don't think it will.  This was one comment about one overseas handler out of the 1,165 overseas dogs entered this year. 

Foreign dogs with foreign handlers are not necessarily playing on a level playing field coming to Crufts unless they have had the benefit of attending several times before and are also familiar with our rules and regs (not just digesting the written word but with a true depth of understanding through experience etc).

All the other foreign exhibitors who got through to the groups managed to show their dogs in the way that's expected of them.

I'm not saying the comments weren't harsh, but as we have no idea how the exhibitor in question feels about the statements made then anything we say is pure speculation anyway.

Debs