Hey everyone

I have just seen a litter which is up and coming and put my name down for it.
It is for a KC reg litter of SBT's and they all have health checks etc and are from top bloodlines.

I have just realised from looking at the breeders website that the stud dog they own and are using, is only 10 months old!! Can the litter be registered with a stud dog that young? As I know it applies for bitches and litter under 2 years old or something, but does it apply to males? And if not, why not!?

All advice gratefully recieved! :)

No, there are no age limits for stud dogs. Obviously if he's under 12 months he won't have been hip-scored (the BMS is 13), so I'd be cautious.

Thats what I am thinking, he's so young you wouldnt know any problems has or how he is going to fill out.....would you buy a puppy from a litter using a stud dog that young?

My morals say No, but he is gorgeous so my heart says yes! :(

Edited to add - Why dont they have age limits for males?

The breeding age limits that have only been around for a few years were brought in for the physical welfare of the bitch, it doesn't really apply to the dog so much as his input is not likely to have such a bearing on his health or fitness.  Carrying and nursing a litter can take well over 6 months for a bitch to recover.

I would always consider a dog of any breed should be hip scored so in practical terms the Male would be at least 14 months when the mating takes place if the results are back in time.  Also most non congenital eye diseases that there are no DNA tests for will not be apparent in such a young animal.

Edited whole post

edited to add : Importantly it is currently VITAL that should you decide to breed from your dog that it is health screened for the eye conditions PHPV and Hereditary Cataract and the neurological condition L2-HGA. For HC and L2 there are now specific genetic screening tests that can be done to determine whether or not your dog is a carrier for either condition.For PHPV and PPSC (another eye condition) there is a clinical eye examination that can tell if your dog is affected by either condition. People buying pups are now demanding that breeding stock are health screened.

http://www.staffords.co.uk/sbtbc/health_issues.htm

http://www.staffords.co.uk/

Doesn't seem they are hip scored and as long as the parents are tested for the tests above and in link they there isn't a avoidance of health testing by using him at this age.

Where did you get that score from JG is it for Staffies?

BVA Breed Mean Scores

Rach it isn't uncommon for breeders to use a dog once I believe at a young age and then rest him so he develops into an adult. There are arguements for and against but in breeds that are mature quite quickly ( ie this breed in question)  quality can generally be assessed by an experience reputable breed person. It looks like if the health tests have been met by the stud and parents then there are no health issues being avoided. 

With the SBT it takes 2 years for them to fully develop and then a further year for them to fully 'bulk up and get that lovely stocky frame.
Maybe I will have one from the litter but I still wuld prefer him to be older, but if it has no problems for the pups then I suppose its fine!

All heath tests have been done for him just so you guys know! :)

would you buy a puppy from a litter using a stud dog that young?
 

If it was a breed line I was after and I liked the dog. In our breed ( similar size) they are quite mature at this age so generally quality can be assessed pretty acurately.

My answer is YES if all the criteria is met and it is of breed I want. :-)

There is always a little risk he may not turn out just as you would have hoped ( the sire that is) .. You have to weight the balance up.

Most breeds take till 2 to mature bigger breeds longer but general construction, movement, temperament can be assessed at a younger age. 

If the breeder is a very well know breeder why not ask her why she choose to use the younger dog? It may put any worries at ease or not :-)

I'd hardly consider a breed with hip scores on the low number scored in the range from 6 - 47 with a mean of 13 had anything to be complacent about and ought to be making sure Hips do not become a problem.  Only needs a few well used stud dogs scoring in the 40's to wreck the breeds hip status.

Based on OFA statistics (USA) STAFFORDSHIRE BULL TERRIER  Number screened: 420 Number excellent (less than 4 total (no more than 3 per hip) by UK scheme) 1.4%, Percentage Dysplastic (over UK 26 total) 17.4%

Interestingly the worst breed by OFA statistics is the bulldog which is rarely scored here, it has from 410 screened only 0.2% Excellents and 73.7% dysplastic.

My own breed which also has a mean score of 13 on over 500 scored, with OFA has a rate of 6.9% Excellent and 19.7% Dysplastic with 3456 screened.  The breed is not numerically strong in either country.  Our breed club insists all breeding stock are hip scored and approximately 20% of all registered pups end up being scored so the stats for the UK are pretty accurate for the breed as a whole.

Out of interest WEST HIGHLAND WHITE TERRIER  Screened: 122,  Excellent:1.6%, Dysplastic 10.7%

Thank Blue I think I will do! :)
She is a lovely lady and dosent mind asking any question I have, I just dont to offend her by asking, but I shouldnt do I hope!

We found out the litter we were hoping for isnt going to happen as the bitch missed, so its back to the drawing board again!!

I'd hardly consider a breed with hip scores on the low number scored in the range from 6 - 47 with a mean of 13 had anything to be complacent about and ought to be making sure Hips do not become a problem.

Oh I totally agree.  I hope my post didn't come across like that. Often people reply with a list of health test that must be met and they are often not those stipulated by a particular breed club.

I think it would be great if everyone did it.

One thing we have to be careful of though is when only a very small qty is done that we don't assume this represents the whole breed as sometimes it starts off with a particular line issue and these are the first bunch to be tested or scored for things.   It takes a bit more time/testing results to get the true picture . If that make sense.  Ie 44 is a very very poor representation of the SBT compared to the registrations. 

It would be a worth while exercise if all tests were compulsary for Stud dogs regardless of breed then we would get a truer picture.

DO you have the link for the OFA statistics just out of interest?

Yep agree you can't tell the overall picture until a representative sample are scored,b ut if they are no all low then there is something to keep and eye on, head in the sand isn't really good enough. 

It is known that HD occurs in all breeds and non breeds and even wolves so it should along with eye testing be one of the basic tests.

Siberian Huskies have one of the best scores, yet they still advise scoring to keep it that way.  In the UK 3,155 have been scored with a range 0 - 47, with a mean of 7.  OFA stats for SIBERIAN HUSKY  Screened: 15636, Excellent 32.9%, Dysplastic 2.0 %.  Now just think if that 2% were used a lot for breeding? 

In Response to Blue

This page http://www.offa.org/hipgrade.html gives and overview and comparison chart with other schemes, there is a link at the bottom http://www.offa.org/hipstatbreed.html for stats

Something to remember is that there is a lot of pre selection under the US system as they can have preliminary scores done and not go on to have them done later at over two if the results are poor.

Just looked at the OFA stats overview list, and see there are Stats for Maine Coon Cats!!!

I'd also add, that although some dogs in our breed mature quickly.. I wouldn't say it's as cut and dried as that, some Staffords don't mature quickly.
Guess it would be very much dependent on the individual dog, but my gut instinct would be that 10 months is a bit young....
It might be worth looking into the stud dogs lines and their level of maturity, etc..
Although you have now said the bitch missed... and back to the drawing board - keep looking Rach - there's  plethora of Staffords out there to choose from!

I was offered the use of a young dog prior to having his eyes, hips and elbows done - which I obviously turned down.  His owner wanted to try him out to see if he was up to the job before 'wasting her money' on the relevant tests.  This person is a KCAB and I informed them about it with the evidence - and guess what - they've done nothing. 

that's really disappointing Ells-Bells.. :-(

where i have just been reading the breed supplements i noticed that a litter has been registered to a dog who won Best puppy in breed last weekend at a club show he is only 10 months old now, litter was registered when he was eight months so he must have only been 6 months when he sired the litter.
and he is advertised at stud on the internet

It does happen alot

Peanuts

Not in your breed I hope!!! 8-]

Nope not in mine !!

Peanuts

Thanks Barbara will bookmark them and have a read.   I havent' done that much research on our breed regarding hips but will stick it in the " to do"..  Working my way through all the possible illnesses or defects :-)

Hi.
Why dont you call your local breed club and see if they know of any pups due that are from the same lines?

As for the age,personaly i wouldnt use a dog that young, all my puppy contracts state boys endorsed until 18 months, girls 2 years, but if the breeder is line breeding and using a young dog because they know the pedigree inside out or have a older bitch who they cant wait until next season.. everyone has their own reasons.

And as long as ALL health tests are carried out first.ie.L2HGA,HC and PHPV.
Breeders should be breeding to the standard with no exagerations and only with healthy dogs of sound temperment.
Please take your time and if you are unsure dont rush in.Get all facts from the Breed club first as they will know of any health issues with your chosen breed.
Also Crufts is on soon pop along and see the stands.
Good Luck

Mel

So when you want to stud you dog out, you have to let him sire a litter or 2 for free dont you? To prove himself and that he can sire healthy puppies.

How do you go about getting this first studding,and Who here has used a stud dog on their first encounter for free?
I dont see how you would get those 2 free matings to say he is proven as people may worry about what sort of pups he throws.?

> So when you want to stud you dog out, you have to let him sire a litter or 2 for free dont you? To prove himself and that he can sire healthy puppies.
>
> How do you go about getting this first studding,and Who here has used a stud dog on their first encounter for free?
> I dont see how you would get those 2 free matings to say he is proven as people may worry about what sort of pups he throws.?

Eh ? where did you get that idea from ? No dog should be at stud for free, with a maiden dog is is normal not to ask for the stud fee until a live litter is produced-the stud fee isn't really for the litter but for the dog to mate the bitch, however ethical stud dog owners would not charge for a maiden dog until after a live litter, he is then proven & the stud fees after that will be due upfront

So when you want to stud you dog out, you have to let him sire a litter or 2 for free dont you? To prove himself and that he can sire healthy puppies.

Nope!!!   who told you that!

If the dog is healthy and has passed his health tests, he will produce healthy pups whether it be his first second or tenth  litter.  (not forgetting a healthy Dam too)

In defence of Rach, it does say something like that on the breeding articles on the KC site relating to stud dogs, and I have heard of this happening historically.

It certainly is not true in my breed where dogs stud fees are universally the price of a puppy.

Most dogs get to be stud dogs by someone seeing and admiring them and the pedigree theoretically complementing that of a suitable bitch they have, usually a proven bitch for an unproven dog.

A dog I bred and tried to use unsuccessfully on my own bitch (she was too much for him, LOL) mated his first bitch (also a maiden) at the age of 6 1/2.

Sometimes even champions in my breed never get used as there isn't a suitable bitch for them at the time.

I tried to use a male that had sired one small litter but he really didn't have a clue mated both my girls far too late and I never got a litter from either.

If someone has a really good male youngster that is much admired he may get the chance to be used when youthful enthusiasm will get him over lack of technique.

Every thing you say Brainless is true,  you make some good points... as you say not all  "good"  dogs make "good " studs...I can think of one  outstanding dog in the ring at the moment,  nothing stand a chance around him (Gundog) everybody has used him on their bitches... but to date his progenies  that are in the ring at the mo,are not anything like as good as he is, ...but a few  of his offsprings are producing nice pups (  as yet  to See what they grow into)

But my point is,  if a stud is healthy  he will produce healthy pups,  as long as mate d to an equally healthy dam... ( unforeseen  exceptions  granted)

A dog is not going to produce healthy pups , the more litters he sires...  Giving a couple of free "goes"  is not going to make a difference in health. 

Oh I couldn't agree more.

Also no matter how tempting an owner can do a lot of harm to their prospective studs reputation by not being ultra careful as to which bitches he is used on, as he will be judge by what he produces, no dog can make a silk purse out of a sows ear, but people will often not look at the quality of the bitch when deciding a dog is a poor producer.

Thanks for clearing that up everyone, I had confused new with old rules!

It makes more sense to only take money when the litter has been born, thanks again everyone for helping me with this. :)