Firstly, hi everyone i am new here this is my first post so be kind :-) 

Right here goes, i am the proud owner of a 20 week old German Shepherd bitch, i also own 3 males of the same breed. A friend of mine has recently bought a german shepherd bitch ( now 12 weeks old) and is having difficulties (it is her first dog), i have tried giving her as much advice as i can but sadly she has come to the decision that they can't cope with the pup and want to rehome her, i suggested the best thing was for her to go back to her breeder however for some silly reason (they don't want the breeder to know they couldn't cope as they feel silly) they do not want to do this and have asked if i would like her.

She is a lovely pup and i am soooo tempted as i have the room, i don't work, i can afford it , am committed to training etc etc but i have never had pups this close together in age, i have always waited at least 18 months before getting another so my question is this.................................................would it be disasterous having 2 bitches this close in age and are there steps that i can take to make it easier if i decide to go ahead???  I am not at all worried about the boys as they are all trained to a good standard and have temperaments to die for, my only worry is the 2 pups as all the research i have done seems to suggest that this would be a bad idea.

Bitches fighting would be a completely new thing for me as i have only ever had males who have always got on and apart from the odd grumble are completely at peace with each other.

I would really appreciate your honest opinions guys

Michelle xx

Personally I think the younger arrival would end up a nervous wreck as the older bitch would be the Alpha bitch in the pack an try to dominate the pup

getting two together is never really a great idea at that age- absolute nightmare to train etc. and the time it'd take to train them seperately might severely limit your time with the others.

why oh why won;t they take her back to the breeder? if they find out shes been rehomed without their knowledge they will be devestated, and raging! if someone sold on one of the pups my family had bred i;d be so so upset.

please please try and speak to your friends again and convince them. the breeders might be disapointed but i'm sure they;d MUCH rather have the pup back.

sure other folk will be along in a min to agree- when they do maybe show your friends the thread?

Personally I would say dont do it,  unless you are very very lucky you will end with problems when they get to between 7 and 10 months.  These will result in you having to rehome one, so dont set yourself up for this, couldn't you get hold of the breeder on the quiet, if it was me I would want to know, and be given the chance to rehome the baby.  All my puppy owners sign a contract stating that i MUST be the first port of call if a problem arises and rehoming is needed.  Your friends breeder may well have done this.  Dont suppose it would actually carry much weight in a court of law, but not many people wouldn't take it that far.  But I say again dont take on this baby, time for a newbie is when your girl is about 3/4 years old. Even Shepherd moms and daughters can have a severe falling out when the daughter matures & litter sisters invariable clash, unless one is very submissive and then it tends to get bullied.  Sorry

never been in this situation and do not breed but go along with the suggestion you try and contact the breeder on the quiet, perhaps they could then ring your friend 'just to see how pup is getting on' and take it from there.

It depends on how ready you feel, and how dog experienced you are.  I mean, its not the perfect situation, and there would be troubles, but if you were ready for them upfront, then they would be easier to cope with. 

I would try to convince the person to take the dog back to the breeder, but thats me.  Try not to let your heart run your decision, and think it out in your head.  Anyone will want to take in a lovely pup, that they think is gorgeous in so many ways.  Its human, but you gotta think of your welfare and the pups, and the dogs you already have.

But if you are ready for the challenge, and have thought it through, then it may work out ok.  But really, no one here can tell you whether you should do it or not, thats up to you.  Maybe not the thing you wanted to hear, but its the truth.  Everyone is talking from the viewpoint: if that were me, would I?  So you gotta put it all into prospective.  What would you do?  What would you want? 

BTW welcome to the forum

So can you give us more detail about what problems they have been having ? It maybe that with some more support they maybe able to keep the pup. Alot of new owners find it very daunting when they get a pup and feel failures and so give up and admit defeat. It is often the case that those feelings and confidence can be turned around to show them that with certain steps they can make it work. Too many people give up on young dogs and alot end up in rescue. With proper support and advise alot would remain in their first homes. I am not saying you haven't given good advice but maybe some of us may have some more tips to help.

I would say getting the pup yourself would be a bad idea as having two so close togteher would be a lot of hard work and then if any or your boys are entire it would be a nightmare as it is highly like they would come into season at the same time so have you the ability to make sure they are all kept seperated at all times ?

At the end of the day the breeder should take take the pup back and would not look upon them in a bad way but glad they felt they could bring it back rather than sell the pup on. They need to put their feeling aside and think about teh welfare of the pup. Nice to have a good friend like you helping them ! :-)

I think maybe you should try and get your friend to speak with the breeder first. If I found out that one of my pups had been rehomed I would be really upset, I would be worried about the puppy ie did it have problems? Could I have spotted any issues? and I would be worried about the owners too - were they just not coping? Could I have offered them more support? Did I totally get it wrong when finding suitable home/pup/owner???

I still speak to my puppy owners 6 months on, and get regular updates....Is your friend not talking at all with the breeder?? 

I hope it all gets resolved for your friend, the puppy and you, good luck

We have two bitches aged 9 months and 12 months, (although not the same breed), in our case it is the younger one who is the boss! It really isn't as bad as people say, as long as you have the time to give them individual attention.
But I do wish she would talk to the breeder, has she seen these posts? Perhaps if she realises how upset the breeder would be she might think differently.

I really would somehow contact the breeder.  I would be so upset if I bred this and someone felt that they couldn't get back to me.  Most breeders really care about their pups and would be devastated if the new owner didn't come back to them first.

I agree with everyone that the breeder needs to be contacted.

How sad that they have given up so soon on a pup, if they find a puppy a struggle and do not have the will to see her through this stage they will have no hope in the teenage months so the pup is definitely better away from them, it is a shame that their training or lack of at this important stage may well have interfered with the pups character for the next owner, which is why the pup needs to go back to breeder or someone who already understands the breed and the importance of the social window.

It is a shame you would be ideal, but it is just so hit and miss with two young bitches. I don't think I would risk it, unless one of the bitches were not as big boned or had a much quieter laid back temperament, but at these ages it is very difficult to judge how they will be in a few months time.

Are your dogs in kennels or house dogs?  If kennelled that may make some difference and be easier.

If I were you I would get the breeders details, ring them and ask for it to be in confidence, explain the problem and then ask the breeder to call them as though it is something she does with all her new puppy owners to check as to whether all is well and whether any help is needed.  Hopefully your friend will then be  honest and the breeder can have her pup back.  Even if she isn't if the breeder can leave the conversation with the statement that she will always take back her pups then hopefully your friend will call her and realise it is nothing to be embarrassed about.

Drill into her it is very important that this pup goes now to an experienced owner, it can not be passed from pillar to post.

In Response to Crespin

The main problem as I see it is apart from the super hard work the next two years are going to be e with two large breed pups, is what happens when they mature and can't agree who is boss between them.  This is very very likely unless their characters are chalk and cheese, as there isn't age to separate them in hierarchy.

Often these problems don't occur until 2 to 4 years of age when they reach social maturity.

Could you face living in a war zone, always having to keep them apart?  This is a lot easier with two toy breed dogs say, not easy with two large ones where a baby gate or a door may not be enough when two bitches want to kill each other.

In Response to cocopop

> We have two bitches aged 9 months and 12 months

Your bitches are still only puppies, things may well change and you still have at least a year of training etc before they are mature trained adults.

Also dogs reach social maturity at 2 to 4 years of age, and this is when serious fights can (not will) develop.  Bitches fighting is less likely but when they do they are much more serious than fights between males.  There are experienced posters on this forum that have had to make heartbreaking decisions between fighting bitches as living with the war was making everyones life a misery, the people the two bitches and the other dogs.

There is a saying Dogs fight for Breeding rights and Bitches fight for breathing rights.

The problems may yet surface for you, it is really too early to tell.

> Dogs fight for Breeding rights and Bitches fight for breathing rights

thats very true saying barbara. same with people i guess- males who have fought or argued are much more forgiving than most females who fall out- resentment tend to linger more...

Yep, was a Tom boy in my school years, much preferred that boys fought their battles and forgot it, and the girls would drag everyone else into their disagreements and build on resentment.

Is it because girls build such close friendships and expect so much from them that any falling out is seen as a betrayal, and boys are more take it or leave it with their friendships?

many different arguments for why- it could be down to socialisation- we are taught that thats how girls fight, or on a deeper level we are socialised to have tighter knit female groups, probably based on the more emotive tendancies encouraged in female children and enstilled need for a support group to cope with the 'dangerous' bodies and sexualities of being female. womens bodies were considered dangerous (causing things like hysteria), which is a stigma which lasts till today. we are told that because of them we;re more emotional (e.g. pmt) and as emotional creatures we require support from peers. thus a betrayal is deeper.

possibly anyway. not sure the bitches think that way though :)

No I don't think it really applies to the canien girls, though mien are a pretty close family group, and I am quite surprised how sweet they can be to each other.

Hi guys

Thank you so much for your advice, right i have spoken to the breeder myself who was very understanding and is going to speak with my friend, she said she was happy to have the puppy back if my friend cannot cope, she also said she was happy for the pup to come to me if that was what we decided (one of my males is from this breeder so she is aware that i know what i am doing).

We spoke at length about the pups being so close in age etc and her views are that as long as it is handled properly it can work so now i am even more confused.

My situation is this, all dogs live in the house not in kennels although i have adequate space to seperate them when my bitch comes into season as there will certainly be no breeding going on.

I am soooooo torn as to what to do however i really do not ever want to be in the heartbreaking situation of having to rehome one if things went wrong.

Are there any steps that can be put in place from day 1 to prevent this or am i just clutching at straws??

you can;t ever know what will happen- it might be that they are the absolute best of friends or they might hate each other. it's going to be a huge gamble either way.

at the end of the day only you can make the decision, i personally think it sounds like a lot to take on with having so many others but you'll not know till you try

good luck with whatever you go for, and well done doing the right thing

In response to Brainless

Your bitches are still only puppies, things may well change and you still have at least a year of training etc before they are mature trained adults.

Yes you are right, we don't know how they will turn out. Our breed is generally laid back, and we have had two bitches close in age before without any major fallouts.
We will do our best to ensure this is the case again, obviously no guarantees.

> She is a lovely pup and i am soooo tempted as i have the room, i don't work, i can afford it , am committed to training etc etc but i have never had pups this close together in age, i have always waited at least 18 months before getting another so my question is this.................................................would it be disasterous having 2 bitches this close in age and are there steps that i can take to make it easier if i decide to go ahead???  I am not at all worried about the boys as they are all trained to a good standard and have temperaments to die for, my only worry is the 2 pups as all the research i have done seems to suggest that this would be a bad idea.
>
> Bitches fighting would be a completely new thing for me as i have only ever had males who have always got on and apart from the odd grumble are completely at peace with each other.
>

As a long tme GSD owner(& breeder at one stage)I would advise you to harden your heart, two bitches so close together in age is IMHE an accident waiting to happen, fighting between bitche is often hormonal based & once they have fallen out, that is it for life & they can never be together again, even with you present. I have had upto 10 GSDs at one time a mixture of entire dogs & bitches & once my old very dominant bitch had died all hell broke out & our German bitch turned on one bitch & when she had died, she started on another. The only bitch she never attacked was her own daughter. The ones she attacked were close in age to her & both had been spayed by the time she attacked them. The other bitches had to be kept separate from her completely

The dogs used to steer clear of the fights & never joined in

Thankyou Moonmaiden, i think your response says it all really, i do need to harden my heart in this case. I think i know deep down that i cannot help out in this instance and will advise my friend to take her girl back to the breeder for rehoming.

If i am being completely honest i think i was worried that the bitch might end up in the wrong hands again (i certainly don't think shepherds are for everyone and certainly not first time owners) and i suppose was being a bit big headed in thinking 'well i know what i am doing so i will take on the challenge' but at the end of the day the puppies welfare is far more important than my own feelings so i pray that she finds a nice home.

I will concentrate on my little bitch and will think about getting another bitch in a few years.

Thanks everyone

Michelle x

I quite agree that GSDs are not a first time owners breed, my first dog(well bitch)was a GSD but I was only 8 & the family had had dogs from before I was born, so I never classed myself as a first dog owner. I've got three BC's now & they are about as close as I like Rjj is 3 in May, Jessie is 2 in July & Wukee is one in November. I only have one bitch & know the problems of multi unrelated bitch households from my past experience.

Better for the puppy to go back now & be rehomed as a puppy, that have to be returned as an older bitch with interbitch relationship problems

I would strongly advise that the owners contact the breeder, for whatever reason they feel they aren't able to they must remember that the dogs welfare will be first and foremost the breeders concern, not their embarassment. One of my pup owners did this to me with a 5 month old pup, I had been in touch with her all the way through and she felt acute embaressment that she couldn't cope and gave the dog to rescue. I have never felt so angry, hurt and devastated in my life and hope that situation never occurs again. For the sake of the breeder please advise your friend to contact her/him in the first instance.
Going back to having 2 bitches of similar age, we kept 2 pups from a litter, 1 was quite poorly as a youngster and has never reached full height, she required a lot of nursing in the first 8 weeks and so she had to stay as the bond I had with her was very intense, the other bitch we kept to carry on our line. All was fine until they hit 7 months old and for about a month all hell let loose, it was a very difficult time for us all. I had to train and walk each individually, double the work load for everything. Thankfully now they are best of friends, look like little and large though.