>heard last year of one breed where it is apparently seen as standard to charge a deposit to VIEW a litter, deposit taken off price of a puppy if you buy but non-refundable otherwise.

WHAT!? Which breed was this?
I would be curious to know if they easily sold their litters,or prospective owners felt obligated to buy a pup to recoup their deposit money?? I can see breeders having loads of viewings,but not letting the pups go for one reason or the other..eg saying the person isn't suitable etc etc

> they are not that common i very rarely see others out on walks

um... i NEVER see bullmastiffs out on walks except my own, i think once in my life i've randomly run into another bully... still don't think they are a very uncommon breed though. they are very popular in other areas of the country than my own.

> not you jeangenie was directed at my girl for her uneducated frank remark, as i well researched into the lines and standard before i bought my own, he is from champion stock and i think he is quite a good example, he has good conformation nice colour, I think that kind of unjustified personal attack is uncalled for

i think what she ment was that with only 6 years experience in the breed (which is not a huge amount to be honest, i certainly wouldn;t consider myself an expert on my breed after having them my entire life!) it is difficult to judge. we are all biased towards our own pets but the reason people show is to have an outsider of considerable knowledge state whether or not your animal is of good quality-if you have not showed him how do you know he is a good example in comparison to others? its not till you see a dog lined up with other ones of its breed that you often notice any faults. good conformation and colour are not enough, a breeding dog should have good EVERYTHING or have been picked for some other specific factor like temprament.

> Yes but are you a student? Like me studying full time? living on a measly student loan? Pennies to live on no!!!
>
>

i am, its why i don't show... but if you can't afford to show how can you afford to breed? i believe you mentioned a litter you;d bred from your bitch before-plz correct me if i'm wrong (this is not an attack its a genuine question). when my parents bred their last litter it cost a fortune (vets, food etc..) and the three of us took time off work to do it- i certainly couldn't have helped if it was during a semester.

i'm also intending to learn to drive simply so that when i have a suitable dog to show (may be aquiring one soon depending on various factors...) i can.

> What do you do then ride your danes to market.

also please calm down, its a discussion not a b*tching session

I too was a student two years ago.

I would have loved to have a dog but felt I need to finish my studies and only then I will get back into dogs.
I used to show, do obedience and water rescue, dogs were my hobby and life style so it was very hard being without one!
I know what you mean when you say money is tight but maybe you should wait and spend the few years you are a student learning more, making contacts etc?
While I was studying I did go to some shows and tried to keep myself up to date of what is going on with the breed.

Now few years after graduating I'm finally in position of being able to have a dog again.
I chose to import.
I have had a second job for nearly two years to save up...
I also had to get a driving licence and a car in order to go and get my girl when she has her pet-passport and to be able to do doggy stuff(shows, water rescue) when she gets here.
I believe in if you want something enough you will find a way!
Maybe getting a part time job would be an option for you to save some money and allow you to get to shows etc.
It does seem you want to do this right but have rushed in to it...

What I do not get is why you are so keen to breed/stud?
Why the rush to breed them?
Why not enjoy your current dogs as themselves and do stuff with them and when you are in more stable life situation then start thinking about breeding etc...

I dream about breeding one day but only when I know I can do it right and know I have chances of bettering the breed as that should be the reason to breed your dogs, because you have knowledge and your dog has something to give to the breed.

Going back to the contract - :-D Personally, I would be insulted if the owner of a stud I wanted to use asked me to sign anything like that. It is quite clear from what is in there that this dog is only expected to be used on bitches with complete novices as owners. A stud contract is for stud service only and should not give any instruction about the litter once it arrives. For goodness sake, if the bitch owner does not know to endorse registrations, vet potential owners etc they shouldnt be having a litter. Possible discount on next mating if puppies born dead - God help us! And how on earth can it be proved whether it is the dams fault??? The blind leading the blind....   

LouiseDDB, this is the wording of my Stud Contract. Obviously there are things (such as BAER) which don't apply to your breed, but you could substitute relevant tests. It might help with the wording of yours. :-)

This is to confirm that dog.................................................KC Reg: ............................

D.o.B. ..................       BAER Cert No ...................

Owned by: ...................................................................
                   ....................................................................
                   ....................................................................

Has been mated to: ........................................................ KC Reg ..............................

D.o.B. ..................       BAER Cert No ...................  Date of last whelping: .....................

Owned by: ....................................................................
                  .....................................................................
                  .....................................................................

Date of mating: .........................   Due to Whelp:.........................

I agree to the following conditions:

1.  The bitch is KC registered, transferred to my ownership, and has no endorsements with reference to registration of progeny.

2.  The bitch is over 2 years of age and under 7 1/2 years at the time of mating.

3.  The bitch is in good health.

4.  All resulting puppies will be BAER hearing tested before sale.

5.  All puppies will be permanently identified (by microchip or tattoo) before sale.

6.  Any puppies born with congenital deformities which are life-threatening or detrimental to their future health or well-being, such as cleft palate or total deafness, will be put down humanely by a vet as soon as is practicable after diagnosis.

7.  Any patched or non-standard coloured puppies may be registered, but with both KC endorsements being placed on the registrations, and the buyers signing that they are aware of the endorsements.

8.  If the service is unsuccessful, another will be given at the next season, at no extra charge, if notice of failure is given within 7 days of the due whelping date, and if both dog and bitch are in the same ownership.

Signed: ................................................. (bitch owner)

Stud fee payable:...................................................................................
........................................................................................................

Signed: ................................................. (dog owner)

Date: .....................................

dont understand this bit?
  The bitch is KC registered, transferred to my ownership,
why would someone bringing a bitch to use your stud transfer her ownership to you? unless i have miss-read it?

It's what the bitch's owner would sign Sara.  In other words, just making sure the person who owns the bitch actually IS the owner of the bitch (i.e. registered as such with the KC), and that the bitch has no endorsements preventing the puppies from being registered.

Debs

" The bitch is KC registered, transferred to my ownership"

That would be the portion of the agreement signed by the owner of the bitch.    There would be little point in the owner of the bitch signing and agreeing to such  contract unless s/he had transferred the ownership of the bitch from the breeder to the owner, would there?

JG :   I like it.   It is a simple, straight-forward document similar to those I've signed (as owner of bitches!!)

Margot

Debs - you type faster than I!!

It's about the only thing I ever do with any speed!! LOL

Debs

Hi Yes I am old enough to remember when breeding rough collies that is was common practice to give 10% on purchase price of puppies. This was when puppies were well under £100.
Anna

> it is apparently seen as standard to charge a deposit to VIEW a litter, deposit taken off price of a puppy if you buy but non-refundable otherwise.
>

Gobsmacked!!!!!!!
The reason I don't take a deposit:-  usually pups are booked before a mating has taken place - great, gives me time to get to know the person who wants one of my precious pups.  When invited to view pups, I can see how they handle them, and I assess them again.  At this point I've been known to change my mind.  Once had a family that were great, but the 13 year old son kept trying to hurt pups when Dad wasn't looking.  I, though, being known for my tact, told him if he tried to knock another pups head, I'd knock his pretty sharpish!  The kid would have been a spiteful brat, and I couldn't let them have a pup.  I had taken no deposit, so had made no contract to sell.

Hi Totally Irresponsible !! You don't have time to show (how would you cope if you had to rehome one of the litter your dog had sired??) You had your dog scored because of the grief you recieved not for the health of your breed in general?? You will charge to find suitable homes for puppies you are responsible for?? Says it all!!!!!! Wheres that ignore button.

In my opinion ! the poster is very immature for her age and has an awfull lot to learn about, showing, breeding, health testing, I am still learning and I am now a pensioner. !!!!!

When I started I knew nothing about health testing, overshot mouths and all the other problems that can arise from breeding. I did not have the support of a board like this, nor, a mentor.

If I knew then, when I started in my breed, what I know now, I would have done things a lot differently, but, feel I am too old to start all over again, so Louise, please take some advice from an oldie, wait for a few years until your circumstances have changed and your temper can be controlled and not say nasty things to the majority on this board as most of them have been around for a few years in the "dog world" and know a lot more than you do.  You also want to build up a good reputation in your breed and I am sorry to say, they way you are going about things, you are not going to get a good reputation. Also Listen to what members have to say, they are probably trying to stop you making mistakes that most of us will have made over the years, and, believe me, you do learn the hard way.

> It is suggested to you that you sell your puppies with endorsements for progeny not to be registered and not for export. This will protect the puppies from unsuitable homes and put off many undesirables. Endorsements can be lifted at correct age 12months for dogs/ 2 years bitches and if the dogs have become of suitable standard/health to be bred from (you will need a signed, written contract with the new owners stating fully the terms of endorsements'). Also a diet and breed information pack is sold with each puppy as well as 6 weeks insurance from kennel club or other like insurance companies.
> I could find some suitable homes for the pup/s, if and when needed, if any are sold on my behalf I will require commission of £100. I would prefer this in the form of a non-refundable deposit from the new owners. This can be discussed at the time and terms agreed.

No mention of health testing. encouraging dogs to be bred from aged 1 year onwards & £100 for finding homes for the puppies-words almost fail me. The puppies are your responsibility jointly with the bitch owner & I think your inexperience a a breeder doesn't fill me with confidence as to your ability to find suitable homes for any puppies

£100 per puppy if you sell them for the owner, on top of the stud fee you are charging?? Sorry, but you are taking the p**s here!  

I think everything has already been said on this topic so am going to lock.