>he has good proven show lines

I have a dog with wonderful bloodlines on paper, but sadly he didn't inherit many of the good ones! I'd shoot him, then myself, rather than allow him to sire a litter! Nice pet, though. :-)

Well thankyou very much for undermining by knowledge of the breed standard, how on earth do i not have either. just shutup you silly woman your starting to annoy me now

Who was that in reply to? (This cursed flat layout makes threads very confusing.)

not you jeangenie was directed at my girl for her uneducated frank remark, as i well researched into the lines and standard before i bought my own, he is from champion stock and i think he is quite a good example, he has good conformation nice colour, I think that kind of unjustified personal attack is uncalled for.

In my breed it is quite common to wait until the litter is born before taking the stud fee,a nd it is the price of a puppy.  Some of us do as you have said take a £50 non refundable fee for the stud dog owners trouble, and the balance after the litter is born at whicy time the litter reg form is signed..

I don't think i needed to do anything Louise :-) your posts quite clearly show your inexperience, i think perhaps you need to seek out a mentor someone that knows the ins and outs of your breed and take their advice on board...

The uk is flooded with people like you who don't show and cant see contructively at their own dogs faults and what tp put them to..

I'm not saying showing is the b all and end all BUT it gives you experience within your breed to say oh hang on no that bitch wouldn't suit my dog... But obviously thats not important to you..

Yes i can see his faults i am aware of them, and i can see them in the breed as a whole in other dogs of the same breed that i meet. and how is that not important to me, i forgot you were sat inside my mind knowing what i was thinking.

Go on then you buy me a car, pay for my petrol money and my show fees and i will go. It would make me the happiest person ever if i could get to shows and take my dogs, but i simply cant. The thing is i would, i know what would compliment him and how he could compliment bitches e.g he has a good topline. dont try to analyze and generalise when you dont know me

He has a good top line? is that it! are you saying you can't afford to show then? well i'm sorry but if you havent the funds to show no wonder you are asking for a hundred pounds referal fee...it gets worse!

I live on an island and i can get to a local open show twice a year within a few miles if i so wanted even without a car! so thats no excuse..

Yes but are you a student? Like me studying full time? living on a measly student loan? Pennies to live on no!!!

no that isnt it, i said eg an example

He has good colour, minimal white, good conformation, height, short muzzle need i go on.

What do you do then ride your danes to market.

If you are going to breed and offer to take on your 'stud' dogs progeny if so needs be at least have the flaming funds hun to back it up!! what if your dog bred a litter of 9 and 6 were unsold and the breeder said well ok you offered in you stupid contract to take them on but yet you openly admitted you are living on a measly student loan!!

You are making a mockery of breeders who have invested time and MUCH effort into rearing a QUALITY litter..

Go away and come back when you're serious.

we started it our breed perrodeaaqua when i bought over torsten from sweden,
i think it a fair way to do this stud agreement,
the stud owner get a fee for their time and the bitch owner not losing lots of money.
plus they dont have to go back and use that dog if she didnt have puppys and to be hold to use that dog again with losing the the money what happens if it the dog fault not the bitchs fault in not producing puppys,what happen if the dog  dies before going back to use him again for the second time.

i would not want to use the dog with the agreement that the liouseddb wrote,

i have not mate one of my bitch this time beacuse of the way the fee was going to be agree with in the breed.
i am not in an rush to mate my bitch i take my time to find the right dog and stud agreement that use me and my pocket as well as he stud owner

it take two to tango

In Response to LouiseDDB

I think unless you are going to shows regularly you really should not be offering a dog at stud, and not be breeding unless you have a reputable mentor.  the few dogs you are likely to personally see do not give you a broad enough picture.

Not only are you looking at the individuals and how they suit each other, but you need to look at trends in the breed as a whole, which you always have.  This should be how you spot and limit exaggeration in a breed.  time spent in a breed when you see trends come and go helps too, and these are the people to seek out as mentors.

For example my own breed has an ideal height , nd an inch over and a bit less under that is generally acceptable.

There will be times when the breed as a whole is tending to the smaller end and other times the dogs will be generally getting taller.  The same with bone, sometimes it will be generally getting heavier at other times more individuals with lighter bone.

As a breeder you try and be aware of these and other trends.  For example a fault may be considered minor if it is not one that appears frequently, but lets say ear carriage for example is atrocious in the breed, then the fact that a dog/bitch has very poor ears will make more of an impact and carry more weight in your decision making than it otherwise might.

In my breed we have a breed means score of 13 for hips, but no-one would panic about using a dog or bitch of a few points over that as generally hips are pretty good.  In a breed where hips are generally pretty poor with a higher breed mean you would be more concerned about the hip score, but might also have to accept that a less than ideal score may need to be used if there are very few with low scores, but you would ensure at least one partner had a low score, but preferably both had average or better.

I can only go to a few shows a year as due to disability I cannot drive.  I am also a divorced Mum so money is short, I just make the most of the opportunities to show I can.  I think I attended 10 or so shows last year.

I would say that a would be breeder/stud dog owner needs to attend the shows with the most representative breed entries at least.  that normally means the breed club shows, and the group championship show as well as Crufts and the other representative shows who have the most breeds scheduled.

As a breed just off the Import register you can probably find out how many championship shows schedule your breed and aim to choose say one a month within a 100 mile radius to attend.

If you join a local Ringcraft class you may well find someone in your group (working) willing to share travelling costs and transport.

In the draft contract that i wrote up i said i could find homes, doesnt mean i was going to take them on, well didnt intentionally mean that, i would just offer my services into finding suitable people from my own waiting list of if people contact me through my website or on here for example.

I invest alot of time in my dogs and believe me the money i do have does go on my dogs i just cant afford to show that is all, do you think i would bother with people like you if i wasnt serious i wouldnt give a hoot what you'd say

dont spout your mouth off, and you go away and dont come back

LouiseDDB you need to make it clear which posts you are addressing :)

He has good colour, minimal white, good conformation, height, short muzzle need i go on.

I have a dane like that excellent colour, minimal white, height, excellent drop of lip, prominent sternum, dire shoulder placement, gait could be better, ear set i would love to see on a min pin :-D lol..

You HAVE to be VERY critical to offer a dog at stud or rather for yours to be used..

i did go to the UKDDBclub shows before they closed down bearing in mind my dog isnt even 2 yet and he came 1st puppy in a local show, but other than that i cant get to any, being in lincoln centre and not having a car its very difficult there are no local ringcrafts. I take my test in march and when i have built up enough funds i will get a car and i will show. I know alot about the breed i have visited kennels near my parents a good breeder lives near by, i know the faults in dogs and what an ideal dog should look like good points and bad points in the breed, I think there is very little i do not know.

I think there is very little i do not know.

Even breeders of 50 years standing will say they are still learning..

yes i am still learning, i dont know it all but i do know alot, i havent just gone oh look a pretty doggy

> Yes but are you a student? Like me studying full time? living on a measly student loan? Pennies to live on no!!!

To be honest if this is your position then you are not really in a position to breed and offer your dog at stud as you cannot afford the potential responsibilities.  Take the time to show your dog (you can take one at a time alternating them).  You have a great opportunity to learn a great deal before embarking on breeding and stud handling.

Entries for CC breeds at championship are generally about £20 - £23 (breeds without CC's like yours about £10 less), and you can get to a show of 200 mile round trip for £30.  This is what many students will spend on a couple of nights out.  A show once a month would be £10 a week or Two packs of Cigarettes or a couple of bottles ow wine or three pints at the pub, or a couple of T shirts.

It can be very hard to be patient when we have a passion :D  I waited all my life to have dogs as my parents were not animal lovers.

I started my passion for breeding small livestock when I started my first full time job .  I bred and showed Rabbits up and down the country travelling by train.  when I married I had to give them up as moved to a flat.

As soon as I had a house of my own I got a dog, and started to show.  I had hoped to breed from her but circumstances were against us, not only did my marriage fail but she had a maternal uncle with epilepsy.  On her unexpectedly young death I bought my first Norwegian Elkhound and bred my first litter 3 years later, 6 years after I first got involved with showing and had learnt a lot about the principles of breeding and genetics with both breeds. 

Serving an apprenticeship is very valuable, after all our dogs are too important for us to learn just by muddling along as we go.

There are many people in most breeds who would love to work with a keen young person, teach them all they know knowing that their efforts for the breed will be carried on by them with the knowledge they have imparted.

It may seem that some posters are being unkindly negative, but I suspect some just feel that your plans are putting the cart before the horse. :)  After all what's the hurry, the breed are pretty strong in numbers, so the lack of a littter or two for the next few years will not hurt any, and with yoru increased knowledge you may be in a position to do more good later.

>>In the draft contract that i wrote up i said i could find homes, doesnt mean i was going to take them on

You DO realise that you might have to take them on.. possibly the whole litter.. they are not just the responsibility of the bitch owner...

Do you have any contingency plans in case of something like this happening...

A girl in my breed who has a stud dog... allowed her dog to be used, . when the pups were 5 weeks old the bitch owner had a nervous breakdown..she couldnt cope with the litter.. a knock on the stud owners door one night and husband was standing at door with litter and said..here take them.. we cant cope...

Can you deal with that happening?... they are also your financial responsibility too..

you cannot forsee the future.. you need to be prepared for ANY eventuallity... AND have the finances/time/space to be able to deal with it...

>they are not that common

There are pages and pages of litters available on the well-known advert site. :-(

Louise

Just take a step back and look at the bigger picture.
You have a nice dog - so have I
You have had yours health tested - so have I
You are offering yours at stud to bitches probably belonging to people who dont show and therefore I will bet my bottom dollar wont be hip-scored.
I wont let my dog be used on a bitch that hasn't had an MRI scan (no matter how skint I was) and there wont be many if any pet bitches who's owner has paid out the large sums to have that done.
So what you will get are people just wanting to get a litter from their pet bitch. No problem you may think -but in your breed large litters are common, pups older that 8 weeks start to get big quickly and are less cute to sell. The pet owner will drop the price, losers will buy the pups because you wont be able to help by taking some in, your name will be mud.
No way to start in the breed you love so much.
I would wait till I'd finished your studies and get into your breed the more respected way, it will be the best for you in the end trust me.

being in lincoln centre and not having a car its very difficult there are no local ringcrafts.

Lincoln -you couldn't be better placed, could you -just a few minuets form Newark showground!! Those of us that show sometimes feel we live there as there are so many shows there.  For an open show it usually costs me a tenner for 2 dogs and catalogue, so hardly a fortune. If you enter one dog and take no catalogue you get away with £3 usually.

Well i suppose im not living on pennies, but a car would be luxury as i cant drive at the moment either. The fact of not having a car is the only thing to stop me, i have begged my mum but she refuses.

I have yet to find someone in the breed that would offer me such knowledge, even the most experienced are too busy n havent a care or the time for someone like myself.

Anyway its late dogs are wanting bed

Night all xx

As for what's rare: there were 89 Malinois pups registered last year, which is a LOT more than there used to be. So DDB seems EXTREMELY common! I lived for 6 years in the area I moved from last year, lots of dogs there, and not ONCE did I meet another Golden Retriever being walked here. That doesn't mean they're rare, just that none other than mine lived in the area.

You will find such people if you show your willing to stick at it and make an effort.  I have friends in Lincs and there are some Ringcrafts around. 

Ring the secretary and you may find someone who comes past your way wiling to pick you up on their way to training, and the same for shows. 

I am totally reliant on lifts.  Had to miss a club event last week 'the contest of champions and Veteran and puppy challenge' due to lack of lift and all four of mine qualified for the competition.  In fact My Jozi won the champions a few years ago.  I am so grateful for the friends who do take me. 

A non showing Friend is taking me to Crufts, she gets in for free and I pay the petrol, got to be a good day out for someone who likes dogs.

i got them done asap but yes he is unshown as i simply do not have the time.

Louise you don't have time to show but plenty time to breed.  I just don't get it.

I am sorry but you certainly are not fitting the profile of :

1) a reputable breeder,

2) an ethical breeder,

3) the type of breeder who should be finding homes for pups that someone else has bred from a pet bitch to a pet dog.

It is money money money. Everything a good breeder isn't.

I am sorry if it is blunt and if the moderators don't like it BUT it is the whole truth.  People have to read these threads I would hate anyone thinking this type of nonsense is ethical.

Louise its not impossible i regulary take a lady who hates motorway driving and she owns a bernese, have a go to get there and see...

I am so happy in knowing i never bred our 1st dane as she wasnt all that due to showing it gave me that knowledge i find in our breed there are some exceptional people who will give 1st hand experience and mentor me..

Give it a whirl..

In the draft contract that i wrote up i said i could find homes, doesnt mean i was going to take them on, well didnt intentionally mean that, i would just offer my services into finding suitable people from my own waiting list of if people contact me through my website or on here for example.


Just to clarify I do not breed and won't be breeding so have no experience at all but I think you may have misinterpreted what mygirl was referring to.

The way I understood her post, and from reading many similar discussions about breeding, what she was saying is that a responsible owner of a dog that that has been used for breeding must take a lifelong responsibility for the puppies they have bred and this applies to the owners of both the stud dog and the breeding bitch. If any puppies do not find a suitable home then, as the owner of the stud dog, you would have an obligation to rear those puppies yourself in your home and at your expense.  It is therefore necessary to ensure you have sufficient resources to be able to deal with such a situation if it should arise. After all those puppies would not be here if your dog had not been used as their sire. Living on a student loan or grant is hard at the best of times and there certainly wouldn't be the money available to take on one extra puppy let alone half a litter if they remained unsold or indeed if they were all sold and then returned to the breeder at a later date.

There are quite a few breeders on here who have had dogs they have bred returned to them at a later date when their owners have had to give them up for a variety of reasons. All reputable breeders insist that any dog they have bred is returned to them if it needs to be rehomed - again part of that lifelong responsibility for the new lives a breeder has helped to create:)

i think he is quite a good example, he has good conformation nice colour

Nice colour !!!! that is the the type of thing a inexpereince person would honestly say.

Trying hard to be as tackful as I can but I question your ability to understand the reasons for breeding dogs.

Yes i can see his faults i am aware of them, and i can see them in the breed as a whole in other dogs of the same breed that i meet.

Louise you have little or Noi experience of a good dog to be honest, you have to go to shows even if only to watch the breed in action. 

All of us with our first pet dog thought it was the best thing generally until we see the real competition.

Go on then you buy me a car, pay for my petrol money and my show fees and i will go. It would make me the happiest person ever if i could get to shows and take my dogs, but i simply cant.

Surely from the litters you have bred you put away the money to invest back into your dogs.  A car maybe doesn't fit the bill but it is a start.

What amazes me over and over again is the real ingnorance that you think everything you are saying is the work of a ethical breeder.

did you happen to notice the words i said before that your just picking blue get a life

There are quite a few breeders on here who have had dogs they have bred returned to them at a later date when their owners have had to give them up for a variety of reasons.

Yes and I am one of them -the dog on my avatar was returned to me 4 months ago. Entire male! The stud owner and I discussed it between ourselves which of us should take him. It was taken for granted by both of us that one of us would, as the stud owner most certainly felt the exact same responsibility.

I have bred one litter myself and alot of that went into the rearing of the puppies as she didnt have a large litter, I dont know why i bother

Now now folks keep it polite and constructive please, and no personal comments and bad language.

By the way what were Ruby and Masons hip scories?

I dont have them back yet only had them done a couple of weeks ago

I hope for the sake of the pups already born that they are good.

Doesn't it tell you something Louise that every single person who has responded has said the same thing? In much less abusive words than yours as well. I don't know how you'd ever even get stud enquiries if you didn't show -shows are the place where you find stud dogs in breeds that don't have another common use of work (and can be seen there instead) such as Labradors, Goldens, whatever. It's not reputable to advertise a dog for stud and will not get you the right bitches and breeders. A good dog doesn't need to be advertised, and if he's not good enough to get enquiries just by being seen, he's probably not good enough to be used. And if he isn't seen, well then he won't be used.

Just to let you all know you can carry on with this post but i shant read or reply anymore. if everything isnt done to a certain persons way they dont like it, i dont wish to lose the respect of those one or 2 that might have any for me but i will to express myself but i cant even though i do fancy being banned. Ciao people lead good lives

>>A good dog doesn't need to be advertised, and if he's not good enough to get enquiries just by being seen,

Excellent point Marianne... most  breeders do have a dog which may occassionaly stand at stud.. to be perfectly honest.. very few breeders actually have stud dogs... only the top breeders consistently turning out excellent pups will have dog/s they can class as stud dogs...

I have 3 adult boys.. yes they may stand at stud.. but they are not stud dogs.. but even then.. also they are being seen out in the ring at champ level.. I have numerous enquiries... some I have refused... and another breeder just recently phoned to ask if I would be bringing one of my boys to a particular champ show... WHY.. because although she has seen him in the ring.. knows his pedigree.. she hasnt gone hands on. and wants to check him over for herself.. and until that happens.. no decision can be made...

So.. how can you tell if your boy is good enough, or am pet bitch owner know her girl is right for your boy, without REAL knowledge...

Louise i am sorry you have taken total offence and i know you will do your own thing but think 1st about over populating a breed already influxed (as we are and we breed less than you do) its more desirable to say well yes my dog may not be all that... theres no shame in that..

Louise you asked for opinions and got them -the fact that everyone's was the same says a lot, you had your answer.

Louise
Just in case you're still reading this........
When you've cooled down and thought long and hard about everything that's been said, you may just accept that we're not all just silly old bats!!  Many of us on this forum are what you aspire to be;- respected, successful breeders, exhibitors and judges of our beloved breeds.
The wonderful mentor you are looking for?   Well it could turn out to be someone like us telling you that you are wrong and if you wanted to get to their position you would have to listen!!!

Come on hot head what if we are all right and you are wrong? Listening to us would be a climb down but learning is a life-long path especially with dogs.

Oh Louise you seem to be copping it from every angle,from feeding to breeding and contracts....

I for one would hate to lose you as a member,because when you ask a question here you generally get helpful,straight down the line,more or less professional advice.
You could leave and join another site,but that forum could be full of fluff fluff members who would absolutely condone you breeding whatever dog to whoever bitch,because they'd make cute pups.But how confident would you feel taking this advice?It may be what you want to hear,but may not be in your dogs best interest,at least you know this is not the case here and you can feel confident taking peoples advice who truly have got your dogs best interests at heart.

As for asking for a fee to place pups,here is my experience with this.Over the years when i have been looking for a pedigree puppy or kitten,most breeders know exactly who else has current litters and usually keep a list of them by the phone,so when prospective buyers call and they don't have any available themselves they can then pass on the other breeders contact details.I was never asked to pass on their names to another breeder so that they can get credit for it,it just seemed like a courtesy thing to do.

As for the stud dog owner taking back any pups,in my very limited experience it has seemed that most often than not it's the bitches owner who takes them back.I'm sure there are stud dog owners out there who only stud because it's a hell of a lot easier than rearing a litter and having the responsibility of taking pups back.All they have to do is let their dog do the deed,get paid for it and it's done. This is just the impression i have got and could be completely wrong. From a complete novices point of view it would be easier/less responsibility owning a stud than it would be a breeding female???

have not had time to read entire thread but from what i know of studs i have visited the fee is not refundable and a 2nd mating offered if she misses.  i constantly get puppy enquiries too and freely give the phone nos of breeders who may have pups and dont ask money for it! also from what i am told the stud owner is 50% responsible for the pups throughout their lives so how would you cope if you had 10 pups returned to you say at 2/3 years old!  having a stud is a big responsibilty. i also know many bulldog breeders who only charge £2/300 for stud fee so their dogs are able to work more and not get frustrated even though pups may cost £2000

It would seem that many of the DDB breeders listed on CD seem to have Bulldogs, Rottweilers or SBT listed as their other breeds.
Is it too much to hope that at least some of them are responsible breeders and not just jumping on the bandwagon?

My view is, people are thinking you are a bit too money orientated. You should considering the benefits and improvements to the breed. Cash has surely got to be secondary.

Karen ;-)

I won't add to the good sense that has been talked above, and hope that Louise is able to come back to it when calmer and take something from it.

For what it's worth, I have (old) breed books that state that if you are passed a sale from another breeder, it is courtesy to offer a commission of around 10%. Not something that I've seen practised though. Mind you, there do seem to be some strange practices within breeds, heard last year of one breed where it is apparently seen as standard to charge a deposit to VIEW a litter, deposit taken off price of a puppy if you buy but non-refundable otherwise.

M.