I have seen 2 very interesting sights in the last 3 days.  On saturday I came out of Asda and there was a man standing outside with a rottie who was docked, ok nothing unusual in that except the dog concerned couldn't even have been 4 months old!!!! Then this morning as I was scraping the ice off my car before going to work a gentleman walked along the road and said good morning to me, I looked up and replied then my jaw hit the floor as he had a doberman puppy about 12 weeks old (a rough guess) which was docked!! Now from a purely personal point of view (and I dont want to start another docking debate :)) I was really cheesed off when the ban came in as I dont want a poodle with a feather duster for a tail but thought to myself ok I will just have to get used to it!  So what I would like to know is it only show folk who arent going to be alowed to dock as it seems (and I'm being very charitable here!) that people that breed but dont show seem to be doing exactly as they please with no comeback!! Anybody else seen dogs that have been docked after the ban?

Unfortunately the pet market don't seem to realise that docking is illegal, though I'd love to know where they are getting them done, sadly I have a feeling that they are doing them themselves as no vet will do it these days, hardly any will do it even the legal way if you are sure of the pups going to working homes!

Honestly.... do you think a pet breeder would get their dogs docked or even know how to dock the puppies themselves ? Have an interesting theory on this if you care to elaborate ......  

The DDA made pit bulls illegal, but I still see some while travelling around London, I guess the same thing applies.  It's one thing making a law, it's a completely different matter enforcing it.  :-/

I long thought that this ban and the previous, only affected the responsible reputable breeders/owners.

It is impossible to police as afaik its not illegal to buy a docked pup, its illegal to dock one and presumably illegal to sell one (though unsure on that). So its the person docking you need find, and how do you do that?

So we will continue to see 'pet market' pups docked, and show dogs will not be, and yes i do think byb and puppy farmers and whoever else will dock their own dogs and quite likely do it badly.

I specifically wanted a rottie pup that had been docked and as there was several advertised on web sites without tails even after April 6th it was just a matter of going to have a look and making sure they were from a decent "hobby" breeder. I do not show nor want to. have had rotts for years, last girl lost at 9 to bone cancer, have new pup and as far as I have been able to find out have not broken any law. Didnt ask who docked him and dont care!"  Not everyone blindly does as they are told by the Eurocrats!!!

> , have new pup and as far as I have been able to find out have not broken any law.

If your pup was docked in the UK then YES the 'breeder' has broken the law. The same as any other law. If the law says dont do it, then if you do you are Breaking the law!!!
I know how to dock puppies tails, like probably most other breeders of docked tail breed, as it USED to be the breeder that did it before the law was changed to only allow the vets to dock!!!
Unfortunatly alot of people think the law is behond them as they are onl;y having a pet litter :( :( :(
Now I love my docked breeds and think the law is redicul;ous, but I would never buy a docked dog that was docked after the 1st April, as I would be very dubious of where the pup came from and wouldnt want to aide and abet a law being broken!!
Lea :)

Fifi
I am unsure who should be enforcing the tail docking ban, is the RSPCA, Police or DEFRA?
I do not know who you would raise a complaint for illegal docking.
I do remember the Council for Docked Breeds commenting at the time of implementing the ban that the law would be almost unenforceable, and that reality is now upon us.
I am sure that somewhere along the line a prosecution will be brought against someone for something to do with illegal tail docking.
I for one would contemplate docking some, if not all tails of a litter, for a breed that could be exempt from the ban, provided the prospective owners were able to prove they would work the dog. The waiting list would include potential work, show or pet homes.
I both show & work my HPR breed and would be able provide the evidence to the vet to get the puppies docked legally.
The paperwork required for each puppy is daunting , but necessary, the pups also have to be microchipped by the vet who carries out the docking. The total cost for the vet doing all this is about £50 per pup. Prospective owners would be guaranteed that their puppy would be legally docked and would be provided with all the necessary documentation.
I consider myself to be a responsible breeder, I am an enthusiast and aim to improve the breed, but at the same time I think giving owners the 'choice' is important.
The puppy I keep from the litter would be docked, I would do everything I normally do in nurturing that puppy including showing and working. I know from the outset that shows where the public pay an entrance fee at off limits, so that rules out Crufts for life.

For information: Ireland is exempt from the docking ban at this time. This means that any dogs bred there can still be docked and sold. If you really want a docked dog from the breeds you mentioned, you only have to hop over to Ireland and buy your puppy :)

People who skirt around the edges of the law in their everyday life are hardly going to be bothered by this legislation.
When the muzzleing and licencing of Pit bulls was introduced it made me laugh....can you see the dog fighters lining up to get their muzzles and inform the police?
Many commercial puppy producers are routinely breaking the law ( or at least the spirit of it) so why should this little technicallity bother them.
Law abiding people are respectful of the law.
It's just lucky that the SBT is an un-docked breed... just imagine how difficult that would be to police in the inner cities.
Edit to add: I'm pro-docking but will abide by the law.

>Law abiding people are respectful of the law. 

Owning a docked dog does not mean you are not law abiding :) It appears that most of you are assuming that these puppies were illegally docked. I would have thought that the 'witch hunts' throughout history would have taught you the dangers of making such assumptions and worse, acting upon them. Maybe you all think the owners of docked dogs should carry their 'proof' around with them and produce it when you ask them!? Who needs police - you could all do it for them ;)

>Who needs police - you could all do it for them 

There's a system in place already - it's called Crimestoppers! ;-)

My docked breed dogs are all docked - before the docking ban. I have no intention of carrying around proof BUT I am complying with the law and will not dock again. I have requests for puppies that are docked and even though I will not breed a traditionally docked breed again, I know that these puppies will be sourced-  but not by my Law Abiding, and ethical, dog breeding friends.

I know a few very good breeders in Ireland and indeed have sent stock there but I dont think they want to crank up production to get around the UK ban.
Perhaps we can surmise who may take up the slack.

after the bann in scotland, we were still getting adverts in ocal paper for docked rotties! I felt the paper should put a bar on advertising ANYTHING illegal.

I'm pro-docking - not that it matters but just for the record.

The main problem as pointed out is POLICING
A law was introduced & it was approved "yes yes docking is cruel lets ban it rar rar rar" BANNED - but now its forgotten about, not by us maybe but by the one's who wanted this law and the ones who approved this law.
The police won't police it - they have more important things to do
The KC won't police it - apparantly they didn't approve of the ban - however they didn't convince me
DEFRA - hmmmm they wanted it so bad, they got what they wanted then forgot about it?!?! Maybe they realised they've got better things to do like stop REAL cruelty

This law needs to go back to parliment and figure out who is responsible for this - who's going to ensure people are prosecuted if they break this law? It appears nobody actually wants this big task. It'll probably never be resolved and we'll see docked puppies for a long time.
(appologies if anyone is offended by my "doo gooder" impression)

Owning a docked dog does not mean you are not law abiding  It appears that most of you are assuming that these puppies were illegally docked. I would have thought that the 'witch hunts' throughout history would have taught you the dangers of making such assumptions and worse, acting upon them. Maybe you all think the owners of docked dogs should carry their 'proof' around with them and produce it when you ask them!? Who needs police - you could all do it for them 

Come on Admin, pups of Rottie's and the likes must be illegally docked. I'm sure you have noticed how hard it is for those of us who even work our dogs to find a vet who will dock and that's even the ones the were with the CDB.  Are you really telling me that they are all going over to Ireland to import them?

I assume that you thinks it's OK then for these docked pups to be showing up in papers and in shop windows?  Just like the all litter natural bobtails of Boxers showing up everywhere.  Can't believe so many are being bred especially when I have a breed that can be born naturally bobtailed and never in 16 years of owning them have I had a full litter of bobtails.  Not even with two dogs mated too natural bobtails who have shown since that they have the bobtail gene!

Well said Gemma86

Once again it's us goody goodies that will do as we're told, many others never have and never will.

DEFRA - hmmmm they wanted it so bad, they got what they wanted then forgot about it?!?! Maybe they realised they've got better things to do like stop REAL cruelty
Maybe they've all finally switched to stopping the barbaric way food producing animals are kept - just so we can have cheap fried chicken.
A life time of torture -v- a little docking procedure...   well we could see which was a vote winner........

Obviously there is still a call for docked puppies. OK these examples could have been bought in Ireland (doubtful) or docked illegally here. It proves that once again the government are turning a blind eye to the puppy farmers and awful breeders who will do anything to sell their puppies, and at the expense of those of us who are caring good breeders, abiding by the new law. Having said that, however, at a recent show I am convinced that some of the puppies definitely had their tails "tipped" - which in some cases did go towards hiding a too curly tail! 

>Come on Admin, pups of Rottie's and the likes must be illegally docked.

I am not in the habit is supplying mis-information Diane :) If you check both the KC site and that of DEFRA, then you will find that Ireland is exempt and this is a fact. We have several Rott breeders listed with us that are still docking. There may be Dobe breeders to, but I have not noticed them especially. Yes, I am aware that it is now harder to find vets that dock, but they are still out there and still docking working gundogs and terriers as long as the strict criteria is met. Finding such vets is far from impossible.

If someone really is intent on obtaining a docked breed legally, then they will be prepared to travel to get that dog. I would have thought that was obvious! Personally, I have always had a hankering for a dobe. If I was to realise that hankering now, I would not even consider buying a undocked dobe. Consequently, I would have to travel to find that puppy and if that means abroad, then so be it. I am sure I am not the only person who would travel to buy a dog that they wanted.

>Are you really telling me that they are all going over to Ireland to import them?

No, that was not what I said. What I said was that it is wrong to assume that every docked puppy you see now has been illegally docked. My point was that there are places that you can buy legally docked dogs. Nothing more, nothing less :)

>I assume that you thinks it's OK then for these docked pups to be showing up in papers and in shop windows?

You "assume" wrongly again Diane :) I do not recall saying anything of the sort. 

My point was that it is wrong to assume that ALL docked puppies you come across in the street now are illegally docked. No doubt there will be some but it is not right to assume that ALL fall into that category.

In Response to fifi

It could well be that these are pups bred by people who have no wider knowledge of the dog world and may be unaware that docking is illegal, though it has been illegal for anyone other than a vet to dock for some years.

Ignorance of the law of course is no excuse and a woman who docked a Rottie litter she bred was given a very harsh sentence last year.

The breeders of both these pups are blatantly breaking the law (unless the pups came from Ireland), but I expect this law is not generally known to any but those in the dog world.

If someone reported these breeders and they were bred in in the UK they would be prosecuted.

Might I just point out that although it is quite in order for someone to go abroad to purchase a docked-tailed puppy, it will not be possible to show said docked puppy!

>Consequently, I would have to travel to find that puppy and if that means abroad, then so be it. I am sure I am not the only person who would travel to buy a dog that they wanted.

Considering that the majority of the general public are reluctant to travel out of their county to buy a pup I think it fair to assume that out of every 10 docked Rottie pups seen out with 'pet' owners, only 1 will be legally docked in another country.

Hi Margot ... long time no see!

>Might I just point out that although it is quite in order for someone to go abroad to purchase a docked-tailed puppy, it will not be possible to show said docked puppy!

I'm still confused about this - is there not working that says it is illegal to show if the public are charged for entry? Have never been to a breed club show or open show that charges for entries, and believe some of the general champ shows don't either. Is it still legal to show at such shows?

M.

My understanding is that no dogs docked after the date that the law came into operation can be shown at any show where the public have to pay for entrance ....therefore any show which charges for entrance - and most champ shows do charge (we came up against this at Bournemouth & South Wales, when despite having 3 dogs entered, only 2 passes sent & had to pay for t'other ) - as does Crufts of course.  There is also a grey area where a KC Open show takes place within another show where you pay to enter the actual show ground (Im thinking here particularly of Tendring Hundred show in Essex where Clacton organises the Open dog show - not companion).   And of course, the same would apply to the "fun"/companion shows at other similar venues.

>Considering that the majority of the general public are reluctant to travel out of their county to buy a pup I think it fair to assume that out of every 10 docked Rottie pups seen out with 'pet' owners, only 1 will be legally docked in another country.

Very interesting Jeangenie. Where did you source those figures from? Can you post a link? :)

I'm still confused about this - is there not working that says it is illegal to show if the public are charged for entry? Have never been to a breed club show or open show that charges for entries, and believe some of the general champ shows don't either. Is it still legal to show at such shows?

All schedules now carry a note about docking on the front page. The ones for shows where you don't pay a fee to get in tend to say "Only undocked dogs and legally docked dogs may be entered for exhibition at this show" or similar. A dog docked in Ireland WOULD be legally docked so hence could be entered.

Showing of Docked Dogs

A dog docked before the 28 March 2007 in Wales and 6 April 2007 in England may continue to be shown at all shows in England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland throughout its natural life.

A dog docked on, or after, the above dates, irrespective of where it was docked, may not be shown at shows in England and Wales where the public is charged a fee for admission
so  any Dog in any Country  Docked after the date   can not be exhibited in the UK,  where puplic are charged admission.
Garry

so  any Dog in any Country  Docked after the date   can not be exhibited in the UK,  where puplic are charged admission.

My understanding, although I may be wrong, is that the rulings are not for the UK as a whole and that any dog legally docked after those dates CAN be show at all shows held in Scotland and Ireland. They cannot be exhibited at shows in England where the public pay an admission fee.

RJS

No figures - just info gleaned from talking to the vets at work. Rotts and Dobes aren't on the list of breeds where exemption is possible (in England and Wales that only includes HPR breeds, certain spaniels and certain terriers), and how many pet owners travel overseas to buy a puppy?

At work we haven't seen any docked puppies at all for many months - not even of breeds that can have exemptions, and I live in a rural area where there are plenty of genuine working terriers and gundogs, but not even they are being docked. Or if they are, they're not having puppy vaccinations!

Correct Dogs born after 6th April 2007 cannot be shown with docked tails at fee paying shows in England and Wales - including overseas exhibits.  All dogs that were legally docked before these dates may be exhibited in the United Kingdom.
Garry

Isn't the ban splitting breeds that are still being worked even further in two?

Very sadly yes, especially the HPR which until now have worked hard not to have a show and working split.

I think in many cases (thinking about spaniels) the split is already too wide ever to be closed again.

What a shame.

Sorry Admin, I didnt mean for this to turn in to a huge debate, I just needed to let off steam because after seeing these pups it cheesed me off that I am going to have to have a litter of poodles with feather duster tails :) :) :)  To be honest I never thought of the fact that they could have got the puppies in Ireland :0

yes fifi,

i have also seen rotts and dobes (puppys) with a docked tail in the last couple of weeks.
one was walking around the worthing open show a couple of weeks ago (although) he was not entered.

I'd be tempted to go up and coo "Ooh, what a lovely puppy, where did you get him?" and that sort of thing. Then if I felt like really stirring it (and the people didn't seem dangerous ) I'd be tempted to comment on how unusual it is to see a docked puppy nowadays, since it became illegal ........
:-D

I sit on the fence I think. 

I have a docked breed, and honestly I think if I had to keep the dog undocked, and uncroped (as both procedures are able to be done in Canada) they would look like Toy Manchesters instead of Min Pins.  Nothing against the Toy mans, but I didnt want one, so I dont want a dog that looks like one.

But, I have also seen a couple of really nice natural dogs.  Saw a Rottie with a tail, and it looked nice.  Not what we are used to at all.  Ended up (I believe) getting its Canadian Championship.  I have also seen a Snauzer (ok I know I spelt it wrong) with a tail.  First ever one with its Canadian Championship.  They do look nice.

But I also think that there is a reason for the docking.  These dogs, that traditionally have their tails docked, have it done for a reason.  It may not be the reason it needs it today, but these dogs were used in areas that it was done for safety.  For example (and this is only what I have been told) Dobes have their ears and tails done because it gives an attacker, intruder, etc, less of a dog to grab hold of.  One must admit that these places are sensitive.  Danes, I have been told, had the tips of their tails removed to prevent breaks. 

We import dogs from the uk, and they dont have these procedures done because they cant.  If a person from the Uk was to import a dog that had these procedures done, for example, a dobe would have its ears and tails done. 

>Sorry Admin, I didnt mean for this to turn in to a huge debate

No need for apologies Fifi. It has raised a few interesting points for debate. At least more people will now be aware that dogs born in Ireland can still be docked legally at this time.  :)

Im afraid i havent been able to read through all the posts (not enough time-( )
I understand the basic rules of docking but im confused as to "who" is breaking the law. The breeder for getting it done/doing it, the vet for doing it and/or the person who buys the puppy with a docked tail. This is obviously regarding a non working dog (as proven working dogs are allowed to be docked, i know)
I know the police will never do anything about this but just wondered who would be to blame. Could the owner be punished for buying a dog with docked tail?

As far as I am aware it is the person that did the dockign, whcih woudl not be a Vet as they know the law ans msot were anti docking anyway.

It's not a heated debate just really interesting and something that interests many of us.  I just know that in my breed there was someone before the docking became illegal who wanted her litter docking and the vet said yes/no numerous times even up to when she took them to be done and then the vet refused to do them.

I know the vet that I used to use via the CDB stopped just before the ban came into being and many people have found it hard to even have their legally docked breeds done.

Don't really post here much, just look, not being involved in Breeding or Showing, but being in rescue i like to read so i can see things from both sides of the fence so to speak, but on the subject of docking just another observation, i work for Springer rescue and the docking ban has had an impact on us that i suppose we didn't really foresee. 99% of ESS that come in to rescue are from working stock,the temperaments of these vary tremendously, some are laid back enough to go to active pet homes, however the really busy ones we have traditionally tried to find working pet homes for, we are now finding this very difficult, as all of the nutty youngsters that have come in since the ban have full tails, the working people who used to take these dogs from us no longer want them as they don't want to risk the damage and vet bills that come with working a full tailed dog.

As i said just another observation

Interesting thread, and I'm sure I've seen a couple of young puppies over the last few months that had obviously been docked, but today I saw another one outside school, a young Rottie aged ten weeks - I asked where he came from - a local breeder....(I'm in North Wales).

Did they know, or did you tell the owner it was ilegal?  Unlike the smoking ban there has ben zero publicity to teh general public about the chang in law, so how are non doggy folk supposed to know.

Do you know, I was worrying about the same thing.   I would be more than willing to re-home a working-bred spaniel, but the thought of having one with a full tail daunts me, as I think both of the soreness for the dog, and of the vet's bills afterwards.

It must be a very real problem for rescue.

Jo

Interesting and sad side effect re. the Springers. Does anyone have knowledge of how other countries have coped? Or is it just here the Springer is commonly used for work?

I did say docking was banned from last year, but they didn't care, said they don't like Rotties with a tail.  So where this puppy was docked (and the rest of it's litter presumably), I don't know, maybe by the breeder themselves.

It just goes to show that making something illegal doesn't mean it stops happening.

i think its the type of cover we ask spaniels to work in this country, a lot of it is brambles, and things that are easier to get tails caught on. I know of people that have tried to work full tailed springers that have had £900 + vet bills, i also have a friend who although she doesn't work her springer had to have her tail amputated because she just kept damaging it, because unfortunately nobody told the dog she wasn't working