Nothing to do with dogs but...does anybody know anything about making a small claim? My daughter worked at a shop part-time whilst at university and the shop was in a retail outlet, they sell canvas artwork and decided/had to close the shop (because they were booted out of the outlet mall for not making enough money) and moved to a business park. They have continued to trade but just to commercial clients so no longer need a shop. Anyway all this was last summer and they still owe my daughter wages (a couple of hundred pounds) and have continually said they WILL honour the wages when they have made enough money themselves. I even went with my daughter to the new premises...they have a nice new gallery and office and don't seem to be all that badly off...they just keep brushing her off or not answering the phone, it is a very small family business and the managers wife (who works in the office full time) just says she has no idea about what is going on with the wages and her husband is never available to speak to. It all seems very odd as back in July they did send a wage slip for the owed amount (only no money went into my daughters account) AND they filled out her P45 as if the money had been already paid. We have since made a claim online and just saw today that they have disputed the whole claim. I am not really sure what happens now...does anybody have any experience of this? Thanks for any extra info!

Shannon

I would contact the employment tribunal first.

I had an issue like this and managed to resolve it by using my Dad union rep. part of the privellage of being in the union was cover for family aswell. A few letters (obviously worded in legal jargon) from the Union guy was all it took.
Are you or someone in the family in a union like this???

Is the claim on line a small claims action ?

If they have disputed it what evidence have they given to prove the dispute ?

What they will have to do is produce a bank statement of the Bacs payment/cleared cheque to your daughter as a wage slip is not evidence. If they cannot do this then the court should award you and make them pay.

IF they have disputed the whole amount then the case will go to a hearing, at which point they (and you) willhave to prosent their case, with all supporting evidence.  You have to exchange apaerwork, with all copies of everything both sides using as evidence going ot the court and to the other side, and then you will have to produce a "court bundle" to send to the court at a date before the hearing.  When you get the other side's defence you will be able to see what grounds they are using to "defend" their stance.

bye
Gwen

Thanks for your help on this...things are becoming a little clearer now as we received the 'notice of denfence' in the post today. They are basically saying that when they changed from the shop to the gallery they started a new company as the old one went into liquidation. Apparently any monies owed has absolutely nothing to do with them anymore as it isnt the same company (even though the business still has the same name, makes the same product, ran by the same family....) I am so angry, how can they just deny it like this? She is a student and could really do with the money she worked hard for! I am still wondering about the P45 though, the top copy says the name of the business she worked for at the shop and the bottom copy has the name of the 'new' company and the amount of money that is owed. I don't really know enough about all this to say whether it is worth continuing, I think I will tell my daughter to go to the local CAB office, maybe they can shed some light...

If they have gone into liquidation your daughter would become an unsecured creditor and I am afraid near the bottom of the pile as the Inland Reveue etc will be first in line if indeed there was any money so unfortunatley I would call it a day and stop the proceedings. :-(

Is there any6way Of finding out for definate if they went into liquidation???
As they may just be using it as a guise????
Lea :)

I doubt they would as it would be a criminal offence to lie about something like that and unfortuntely it is quite a common practice in smaller run businesses :-)

Here is where you can check http://wck2.companieshouse.gov.uk/15eb7d0213689176409088068bc452e4/wcframe?name=accessCompanyInfo

I suspected as much, I doubt she will ever see the wages. It's the way they kept fobbing her off saying they would pay her when they are back on their feet, they even said they would start putting it in in smaller amounts, but nothing ever happened, and now they are denying it has anyting to do with them (but then it is written on the front of the Notice of Defence that they are claiming they have already paid it??) To think when I was telling my daughter to keep ringing them to ask about it she didn't want to bother them and was worried about upsetting them!

I had this happen with an old boss of mine, and he said he had mailed my wages, and so I waited.....and waited.  A month went by, and still no wages in the mail.  So I called, and he said he mailed them, and I said I was coming down, and getting my wages within the hour.  Went down there, and refused to leave without my wages.  Eventually, he got the idea (when a customer came in, and payed for something, I said, oh thank you some of my money he owes me for work.)  Me being there, didnt do him any favours, so he gave me my wages.

I dont know if it costs anything in the UK to file a small claims, but here, it just wasnt worth the money to file, but I would have if he didnt give my wages. 

Thanks for that, I have just checked and yes, the name of the original company is down as 'in liquidation'

So is that, that then?! I don't really understand how they can do that if the name of the business has remained the same, the product they are selling is the same, the people that own it are the same...all that has changed is that they now don't have to pay their staff?

The 'company name' on the shop front maybe the same but the Ltd company name will be different.

Yes I am afraid that is it :-(

It sucks, doesn't it? Hubby had the same problem and ended up having to write off £10,000 in unpaid wages. The Union was as much use as a chocolate teapot.

Good grief JG, at least this is only a couple of hundred pounds! (but to her it would be most useful!) She hated that job aswell, I think she is most annoyed at the time she wasted standing in that shop for free!

I get really furious when people take advantage of others and are able to get away with it. Your daughter's couple of hundred's as important to her as Ned's ten grand was to us. 3 years on and I'm still seething! If I ever see the MD - the one you could tell was lying because his lips were moving - I won't be responsible for my actions ...

When Mike was in Practice he had many clients that did this on a regular basis and and there is nothing illegal about it :-(

It really stinks.

I know. The law needs changing to give employees better protection.

The only thing I can see which may bring a tiny ray of hope is the P45 and the fact the defence says they paid the money, if one part of the P45 shows the name of the nw company this coudl possilby be evidence that she was employed by that company.  It also seems strange that they have entered on the Defence form that they have paid the amount - something which your Daughter can prove they did not do.  Before completely giving up hope I would get her to talk either to the CAB or a Solicitor, there is just a chance that the way they have completed the court form may actually be an admission of the liability!
bye
Gwen

Thanks all for your help...she has booked an appointment at the CAB this week. There is something else now that I think may help her side of things as when looking at the two p45's she received (one for the original company that is now in liquidation and one for the new comapny) The money that she is owed is actually on the P45 for the new company that they they are running now....it is down in black and white that the £258 is the responsibility of the new company (although Im assuming it shouldn't really BE on a P45 as it is money that she hasn't actually been paid??) I think this has happened because the lady in the office that filled out the P45s had nothing to do with the family so didnt really know they were trying to hold off paying the staff until the company had oficially gone in to liquidation. Do you think this will force them to pay under the new company?? Any info greatly appreciated!

Ive just noticed they have a lovely flashy new website that Im sure set them back a bob or two!

Had another thought too, if the original claim was made out against the liquidated company then the defence should have been completed by the liquidator/official receiver.  The fact that they have not passed it on to the appointed official mayt be a suggestion that your daughters employment was transferred to the new company?  HAve you been able to find out the date the first company was liquidated?
bye
Gwen

Hi, well the 'notice of defence' suggests the company went in to liquidation in October last year and states that she was never employed by the new company...but the date of incorporation for the new company was in May....the P45 that says she WAS employed by the new company and that her leaving date of that company was in July 2007...the wage slip (made out for the money that she didnt receive) also has the new company written at the top...surely they can not argue these documents? Is there any other way of finding out if the employment was transfered?

Sorry, not getting this too clearly,  am I right in thinking that the "fake"wage slip was included with the notice of defence, in support of their claim that your daughter has already received the money, and that this is in the name of the "new" company?  If that is so, it looks liek they may have shot themselves in the foot, so to speak, as they cannot claim they did not owe it (as compnay liquidated) and also claim they have paid it.  Make sure yoru daughter takes details of all the relevant dates you have to her appointment at the CAB, ie:  The starting and ending dates of her emplyment.  Date she received her last payment, details of how she was paid, eg weekly, monthly, in cash, by cheque etc.  Wether she worked week/month "on hand" or was paid for the current week/month.  Also write down the date stated the company went into liquidation, and try to find out (companies house website perhaps) the date that it actually went into receivership.  Also date of incorporation of the new company.  Make sure she points out the discrepancy on the details in the defence.  Good luck
bye
Gwen

Thanks Gwen, sorry it IS getting a bit complicated! Basically, she received the wage slip when she finished there back in July, but no money went in...the P45 and wage slip (both received in july) both have the new company name on them which suggests to me that the employment was transferred. The notice of defence denies that she was ever employed by the new company and on the front actually says 'the defendant says the amount you are claiming has been paid' which I don't really understand....in one part they are saying 'we don't have anything to do with the money owed' yet on the front it says she was already paid...it all sounds very dodgy to me...so I will tell her to get together all the details you mention and ask at the CAB about it...but I THINK the P45 and wage slip should prove that the money is still their responsibility, I hope so anyway. Thanks again for taking the time to read through all this!

> I THINK the P45 and wage slip should prove that the money is still their responsibility,

That is what I was thinking, but of course this then leads to a different approach form your daughter when it gets to court - she then has to prove that she did not receive the money in wihththe payslip and P45!  The good thing is theis is all goign to look very dodgy to the Judge too!

bye
Gwen

Would she be able to do that with a print out of her bank statements...that would be enough to prove that wouldn't it?

Am I right in thinking they really shouldn't fill out P45's for money they haven't paid yet...I would think that looks dodgy too doesn't it?

The company where I worked for ten years went into administration one day and opened under a very similar name the next, infact they are trading with their original name now if you look at their website.  The only creditors they paid off were the ones they wanted to continue trading with. Everyone else got nothing.  The directors were alright of course, they just re-employed themselves with the new company.  The rest of us lost our jobs.

There really should be law against this. I am still very angry four years on.

Speak to Acas http://www.acas.org.uk/ they are VERY good at resolving disputes without it sometimes reaching the small claims court, plus they work for free on your behalf :-)  Hope this helps.

If the P45 is in the new company's name then yes she has a valid claim and also the date the old company went into liquidation is also an important point.

Just to let you know...my daughter had a meeting at the CAB and their advice was to definitely continue with the claim..infact apparently the lady said it doesn't seem like they 'have a leg to stand on.' I also took all the letters, p45's and the wage slip to my friend who is a financial advisor and he said the exact same thing. When you look at all the documents and then the manager's defense (which complately contradicts all the documents) then it does look that way! I'll let you know how she gets on! It has become a matter of principle for her now...she said even if was only for £20 she would still go ahead!

Thanks for all your help!

Good luck and hope she gets a result ! :-)

Just to update this thread, my daughter had the hearing and won the case! The defendant didn't even show up and it was over and done with in about 7 minutes! The judge said that their defence was completely contrary to the letters and P45 sent by the company so that was that! From what we understand the company will receive a letter saying they have 14 days to pay. We asked what would happen if they just don't pay, to which the Judge said 'there are a series of leaflets to work through, so go to your Citizens advice bureau if that is the case' so not entirely sure that she will ever actually see this money but it was definitely a moral victory!