Ok. Got a lot of people saying that stringing up a dog is wrong.  Causes Pain.  etc etc. 

So I Googled Crufts, and came to the website and looked at some pictures. 

http://www.crufts.org.uk/interact/index.html  This is the image gallery for Crufts.

Then I went onto Westminster Kennel Club (One of the biggest shows in the states) and looked at this

http://www.westminsterkennelclub.org/videos/largeplayer07.html?xml=wkc2007.xml&video=toyminpin

(Miniature Pinscher, my breed, since thats EXACTLY showing what I have been talking about by strung up. Please no comments about how "ugly" min pins are when they have their ears cropped.  There are a couple Naturals in the video.)

http://www.westminsterkennelclub.org/2007/video/breed/index.html#toy  Where you can see your breed of your choice.

So I dont know why, some people have basically stated that I HURT MY DOG.  I would never cause my dogs pain  EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  That is offensive and ridiculous to state.  I do not know what you thought I was doing when I said "String up".....did you think I was holding my dog off the ground choking her? 

From what I saw of the pictures of Crufts, almost all dogs were strung.

Please understand I would never cause my dog pain, and to be told that I am intentionally hurting my dog, abusing her, makes me so mad, and it offends me.  To call me an animal abuser basically, how harsh, when it is now clear, that the UK also does the same practise.  I would never hurt my dogs.  I would do anything in this earth for them.

I can't stand the stringing up of dogs, their front movement is affected etc. and I feel it doesn't do them any favours at all.  Think judges are that used to seeing dogs moved in this fashion these days that they now feel that it's the correct movement.

I let all my dogs move on a loose lead and I think they look great like that, but of course this is my personal preference.

Oh I am not saying that there cant be personal preference to how you show your dog.  I am not at all, its just I have been told that I am purposely causing pain to my dog, and therefore, at least over here, that makes you an ANIMAL ABUSER. 

I think it is fine for you to show your dog loose leash.  I do. 

But I dont show my dog loose leash, and dont need to be likened to an animal abuser, when so many exibitors at Crufts showed their dogs strung up. 

Having looked at the videos on the KC site I agree that yes, some of those dogs are being strung up (the majority of them being terriers).  Just because some people handle like that (and whether it's done at Crufts or not makes no difference at all) doesn't mean that it's good for the dog to be shown that way.  I hate it, to be honest.  As has been said, it affects their front movement - plus head carriage, topline, etc.  When judging I will always ask for the dog to be moved again on a loose lead if it's been strung up the first time.  Stringing a dog (either when moving or being stacked/freestood) up does cause it pain - try it on yourself - it's not nice.

Debs

Just viewed the Westminster video of the Bedlingtons :(    What an awful way to show :(   can't believe how tight those leads are :( and definately affects the movement and the way the dog stands :(     (AGGGGHHHH and don't even get me started on that ridiculous clip - can't see dog for hair :( )

In the UK most Bedlingtons are shown on a loose lead and they look so much better for it :)   I really hate to see the terriers strung up and moving strangely, some of them hardly touch the floor with their front feet :(

Perhaps it comes down to the way they are handled when strung up?  A good, sympathetic handler can string up a dog to show it too advantage, helping show off the natural movement, without causing any discomfort to the dog.  I think it is a bit like having "good hands" when riding a horse, a natural talent which cannot be taught.  Conversley the "heavy handed" just make the whole thing look awful, and it probably feels bad to poor dog or horse.
bye
Gwen

I agree with the "hands" comment.  It depends on the actual definition of "Strung up" though doesn't it?  I hold a lead above my dog's head which we class as "strung up" however the collar part is not under the throat constricting the breathing nor is the lead held tight enough to cause pressure there (my dogs would certainly let me know in no uncertain circumstances if it was hurting them).  I have found it neater in my first breed but am learning that it seems less desirable in my 2nd breed eh Perrodeagua? 

Also I have one bitch who will only walk on a slack lead as she was never actually lead trained by her owner ahem (no comments ;-))

How can natural movement be shown when a dog is strung up as there's nothing natural about that style at all?  They don't have their necks pulled up when running around naturally?  Sorry, not having a go but don't understand.  Surely that is showing movement that breeders, show people have decided that they want their breed to move like?

TT's run with their heads up & if you watch them move they hold their heads quite high when they're off the lead.  As you know I won't string a dog up so their front feet hardly touch the ground, now that is trying to hide something (I've never had the need :-D)

> How can natural movement be shown when a dog is strung up as there's nothing natural about that style at all?  They don't have their necks pulled up when running around naturally?

I have two 7 week old American Cocker pups and two 16 week old Pug Pups racing around my living room as I type this, both American Cockers and 1 Pug move when trotting/gaiting with heads up, exactly as most handlers would like them to move in the ring.   Yankees are usually shown strung up (to a greater or lesser extent) and the pugs  on loose leads.  One of the Yankee pups has such an exagerated natural style of moving that her head is "thrown back" in the best possible tradition of extreme show movement, she has never yet been on a lead, this is just her style.  However, the pug pup who moves in the "Strung up" way firmly refuses to go on a lead if there is the slightest tension around his neck, and so far will only wear a harness!   When/if I show either of them, and hoping Lulu keeps this style of movement, she will be strung up (with the lightest possible contact) and will hopefully show off her natural movement. As I have never had any intention of showing Pipsqueak (Pug) I will content myself with admiring his natural movement on his little pale blue harness, looking for all the world as if he was being strung up as tightly as any terrier!

bye
Gwen

Honestly not having a go, but if they naturally move like that then why the need to use a lead to do it?  Surely if they are on a loose lead they would do it naturally anyway without the need for being strung up?  I've seen so many dogs strung up where their front feet are barely touching the ground.  I know in my breed there are some people that string them up and the movement is totally different.  The front movement is totally restricted and they don't move out like they should.

Oh and loved the photo of Mike from years ago in the dog paper this week, he, he!!

Hi, don't think you are having a go at all, just a frank exchange of opinions - what the board is all about.  I think it comes down to degrees of stringing up, perhaps?  With a dog with the natural "high" carriage, stringing up just seems to add that extra oomph, and goes with the outline,  when Mike is stringing one of the Yankees up, the contact is only made if the dog tries to drop a  little (this is not well described but the best I can explain it), most of the time the lead is held in the position giving the very lightest of support, certianly not holding any weight from the dog.  The point I was making was not in favour of the extreme fashion of moving where the whole front end of the dog is lifted off the floor, but that with a beautifully moving dog with the correct carriage, who lends itself to this style of handling, stringing up simply helps show off the natural good movement.

I was also trying to point out to one of the posters (sorry forgotten who it was) who said that stringing up disguises the natural movement, that some dogs have this style as the natural movement.  Just looking at my own breeds, if you think of the way a really good example of an American Cocker moves in the ring, given a big enough ring, that is :) it is alost impossible to loose lead, with the dog moving out ahead, head up and back.  Regardless of if the lead is in the usual position right behind the head, or is looped under the ear and back, the dog is virtually stringing itself up anyway.  However, looking at my Pipsqueak pugs movement, he is giving the appearance of being strung up all by himself now, and if he did ever come to be shown would be loose leaded, however given the speed with which you move a pug, this would not prove a problem, they are not expected to fly out ahead of you at speed!

When we lead train our pups, they learn that there is little or no contact under the throat unless they start dropping their heads and leaning on the lead, so they lift the head again.  This encourages the natural movement. If you have a dog wihtout the natural carriage, no amount of stringing up is going to make it look good, which may be where it starts looking so awful in the ring, where dogs look like they are almost being throttled, poor things.
bye
Gwen 

Well, i hate to see dogs strung up.  Holding the lead above their head is one thing, but i've seen dogs actually choking after doing their bit for the judge!!!  I cant understand why people would do it.  My dogs (labs and pugs) are shown on a loose lead, i sometimes hold the pugs lead up (slack) or down, it doesnt make any difference to the dog as they have been trained with voice commands rather than yanking on the lead anyway!

Generally i assume that stringing a dog up is to hide some other problem be it movement (the amount of american cockers, amongst others, who's front feet barely touch the ground is shocking!!!!) or how the dog holds itself stood.  When the judge asks the handler to loose the lead 9 times out of 10 the topline will drop...

> Generally i assume that stringing a dog up is to hide some other problem be it movement (the amount of american cockers, amongst others, who's front feet barely touch the ground is shocking!!!!) or how the dog holds itself stood.

Ths whole thread has brought to mind something that has flitted in and out of my thoughts for years.  Not the stringing up thing, but handling/bad handling generally.  I absolutley agree that dangling a dog from a lead is terrible, and it does aboslutely nothing to make the dog look better.  But the thing that has occurred to me on and off is that lots and lots of people don't seem to see there is a difference between good and bad handling, that some poeple have much more natural talent than others.  I feel I can say this with impunity as I am a very bad handler!  It is a bit of a standing joke with us that I can ruin a dog just by getting hold of it's lead!  I can lead train some of the baby Yankees, up to about 4 months old, and then I have the promising ones whisked away :)  I only show the very odd one at open shows for a bit of fun, to keep numbers up at the shows etc.  OK, I can handle a Pug to an acceptable level, but I am certainly not a good handler, and have accepted this fact.  But lots of folk can't comprehend that there is anything more to it than grabbing a lead, and don't seem able to differentiate between good and bad handling - hence all the awful stringing up etc.

Coming from a Horse Showing background it was very obvious to me from the start with dog showing that there was much to be learnt, and soon became obvious that there was very little chance of learning for most people!  Ringcraft is predominantly for training the dog, although some classes will be more helpful towards newbies than others.  With horses, you start of with the basics, and they become second nature to you, you learn to give the aids (signals ) to the horse, learn when it feels "right" under you, and there is always the chance of further tuition, whatever level you are at.  OK, riding is a lot more complex than handling a dog, but some basics are surely needed, and the "grab it and take it in the ring" brigade who think they know it all do so with the utmost confidence, never considering that some level of technique is needed.  I think of stringing up a dog (and by dog I mean American Cocker as this is my own personal experience) as having a horse collected and going well up to the bit.  This will mean something to the other horse people on the board.  You have the lightest of contact along the lead, as you move off you feel the dog actually  lift into the lead and throw back its head and neck a little, and you just maintain this feather light contact with the dog, you are certainly not lifiting it or holding its head up, just going with the natural movement and shape of the dog, and keeping the lead taught with the lightest touch.  If you are actually holding the dog up and almost off the floor (which I have seen) you have no chance of getting the correct forward reach essential in the breed.

OF course, if dogs are persistently trained by heavy handed methods they may become reliant on the hand holding them up - with horses this is when they start to lean on the bit, and start going all on the forehand.

When it comes down to it, I guess what I am trying to say is that good handling, whether it is loose leading or stringing up, is fine.  Bad handling isn't, but at least loose leading by a bad handler does not look uncomfy for the dog !
bye
Gwen

What a great post Gwen :) Thankyou for explaining it so well.

Well put, Gwen! Agree totally!
Especially the comparison with a well collected horse, not bearing down on the bit, is excellent!
Karen

That was so refreshing to read Gwen! I'm exactly the same -RUBBISH at handling. I'm one person who has been in the ring and had the breeder of one of my bitches shout for my husband to come and take over so he could do a better job than I was doing! Also the one who's managed to fall flat on my face in a ring once. LOL. My first dog show was in 1984, so time hasn't helped! My husband showed for the very first time in 2002 and immediately we realised he had a knack for it, down to now and then being asked by other people to handle for them.

" Also the one who's managed to fall flat on my face in a ring once."

Marianne, I show my own dogs, and also handle dogs for other people. I too have managed to fall flat, head first, in the ring. It happens, sooner or later, to almost anyone who shows dogs. ;-)

That's comforting to know. :D

I think it comes down to language differences in this case.  Because stringing up here, means to hold the lead above the head. 

I would NEVER make it so my dogs feet arent touching the ground when moving.  The leash held high, shows off the neck, which min pins walk with their heads up high.  Basically a straight neck, 24/7.

What you call stringing up, where the leash is carrying the dogs weight, is what we call ridiculous.  There is no need for that.  My dogs have never choked on leash, and never will.

> I think it comes down to language differences in this case.  Because stringing up here, means to hold the lead above the head.

Perhaps not so much language difference as not understanding, which comes back to my poor handling post, people see a handler with a dog flying round the ring, head carriage high, lead right up in the groove of the chin, straight line along the lead, and don't understand it is down to a dog who moves that way and a good handler, they assume the handler is holding up with a tight lead, and think they are doing the same by "dangling" the dog. 
bye
Gwen

If people try holding a piece of string - or a dog lead (without a dog on the end!) - so that the end just touches the ground, the string (or lead) will be straight but there's no tension on it, or else the end would lift off the ground. A dog's lead in the ring should have no more tension than that. It can be straight without putting pressure on the dog's neck. However because it can so easily be misinterpreted as being too tight it's sensible to have it a tad slacker. :-)

that would make sense, i guess most people are sensible enough not to choke their dogs though...

ohhh... i stand corrected, just watched the dane video and theres a guy with a check chain held really tight! the poor dog looks very freaked

(incidentally not impressed with some of the bullmastiffs movement, very cumbersome...though a couple of gorgeous ones)

Gwen, that sounds like what I do with my Yankee - as long as the collar is under his chin, I can have the lead slightly slack so that there is no actual pressure being exerted. I can't show him on a loose lead as he glues his nose to the ground, but as long as he knows that IF he tries to do that he won't be able to, he doesn't even try. My Cavaliers walk on a loose lead though, I don't like the increasing tendency of Cav people to show their dogs like terriers!

And LOL at Marianne - I haven't fallen on my face yet, but I've crashed into the ring sides and the tables a few times - my Cavs go VERY fast and I have to take the extreme outside of the circles to not run over the tops of people in front! My friend walked into the judge once though!

I wouldn't worry I often mow the exhibitor in front or the judge down as my distance judgement with my sight is terrible, and as for garroting myself on blue ring ropes.  going to be worrying now this year as at least I could see the bright yellow pedigree tape.

I also show my dogs with a loose lead but collar high, so that they know if they drop their heads to far to try to sniff they will make the collar tighten, as otherwise they would move at a nice speed hoovering the ground, as they do on walks, being a scenting breed.

Without reading every single post! haha I personally do prefer to see dogs moving on a loose lead, it looks more natural and looks like you have more control over the dog.

If you are stringing the dog up i dont think it looks as well as you are having to hold its head up etc etc, whereas with a loose lead its more free to walk and looks better if it moves well in this way without its nose (if a small dog) on the ground!!

If i was judging a show or anything i personally would prefer the dogs moving on a looser lead as i think it makes the dog flow better, looks more obidient and gives them a better look, although that is just my opinion! :D

xxxx

> If you are stringing the dog up i dont think it looks as well as you are having to hold its head up etc etc,

Hi yorkies 4eva

I lmpw you say you didnt read all the posts, but if you have time to go back thourgh the thread and read them, you will see that one of the points I mad, as did several other inc the OP is that correctl handling when  stringing up a dog does not include holding it's head up!
bye
Gwen