Ah, thank you, Brainless. So the only new part is the reference to health and welfare. :-) I knew that the descriptions of docked and undocked tails had been in the standards for several years already.

> and while tail damage can be horrible its not that common in comparision to caught nails etc

I've never had a dog with nail damage but out of the 5 Large Munsterlanders I've owned 2 have had tail damage.  Mine is a breed where 'tipping' the tail was optional and I can fully understand the reasons behind this now.   Mia has a very strong side to side tail action whilst she is hunting & her tail splits the most and I don't even work my dogs, goodness knows the extent of the damage if she was.

In Longforgan (I say this to you Astarte as you live in Dundee) there is a ESS x Lab who sported a long whippy type tail and the next time I saw him, the tail was about a third of the length.  The 'Spaniel' blood had given him a vigorous tail action and the result was tail damage.

Tail damage is remarkably common with dalmatians - they're such very waggy dogs! It never seems to bother them though, even when their sides are streaked with blood where they've hit themselves with their tails, and a soaking in alum heals it in a couple of days.

Well - I feel like I'm throwing myself to the lions here ;-) however, I'll say it anyway.   

I have always LIKED seeing previously docked breeds with their tails.  Saw a rottie a while ago - a lovely girl :-) - my vet has two undocked vizla's she's had since before the ban - gorgeous :-)
I can understand why people would find they look strange having been used to seeing them docked, but it does seem that the objections are based on appearance which seems rather sad to me. Yes, it does mean going back to the drawing board in those breeds where tails were not given attention by breeders for the reason they would be chopped off -but perfection has yet to be reached in any breed.

I too personally prefer the appearance of dogs with full tails instead of docked ones - but I still don't think docking is cruel or inhumane. Unsightly (IMO!) but not cruel. They only look strange at the moment because we're not used to them - in a decade or so they'll be the norm.

ouch, thats unfortunate-is is prevelent throughout the breed? certainly in a working dog of this type (or if you could justify a concern about splitting as you clearly can) i can see the value of docking. i just think most docked pet dogs have had it done when it was not needed. i can see why people might want to have their dog docked it's just something i'm uncomfortable with if not strictly neccessary.

> ESS x Lab who sported a long whippy type tail

i take it it will have taken this from the springer side? lab tails being thicker. could this have been a by product of docking in the ESS? i suppose since tails were not bred for they would be of poor strength. if that might have been the cause of the whippy tail thats worrying for those breeds that will now be having long tails-will they be accordingly weakend? (does anyone know if this is the case?)  i'd hate to see the docking ban actually causing more discomfort to the dogs in question, as previously discussed its probably less distressing when done as a pup than if something goes wrong later in life.

> I too personally prefer the appearance of dogs with full tails instead of docked ones

I don't.   This isn't a disagreement with you JG, just I find the whole tail on previously docked breeds unsightly and makes the dog look 'mongrelly'.

> ouch, thats unfortunate-is is prevelent throughout the breed?

I don't really know as it's something we don't really discuss but I think because Mia has such strong tail action she has damaged her's more easily that say Curtis, who's tail tends to sway rather than whip.  There were some LM's that were tipped to stop tail damage and I've never heard of it amongst them.

> I would not leave dew claws on my own breeding for these reasons - unless of course it becomes illegal to do so.

Agree with Teri, after having numerous horrible injuries to one of my large dogs.  It's always happening, her dew claws are so big and floppy.  You can tell that it's extremely painful.  As to it hurting pups when they are removed ( we've had this conversation before, so I already know that some don't agree with me), I assisted my vet with the last two litters when I asked him to remove dew claws.  The first litter was done at 36 hours old, and the second at 48 hours old.  He states that he will not do them after 3 days old.  Having held the pups while he carried out the procedure, I can only say that I heard no crying, no squeaking, nothing.  This, in a toy breed.  I believe that if a pup started crying, then it would put me off, and I would never have it done again.  But I, like many others that agree with dew claw removal, will continue to have it done unless it becomes illegal, or unless I saw that a pup suffered when having it done.

hmm, you'd assume from the tipping that it did happen a ot though as its done to avoid it. its not a breed i've ever come across in the flesh,are the tails quite whippy? or as you say it could be down to the action. we've had some excitable waggers but with the bullies the tail is thick so its never been a problem. the only one of my breed i've met that it might have been a concern with is a dog i know with quite a whippy gay tail (he doesn't half crack it against things)

> I too personally prefer the appearance of dogs with full tails instead of docked ones - but I still don't think docking is cruel or inhumane. Unsightly (IMO!) but not cruel. They only look strange at the moment because we're not used to them - in a decade or so they'll be the norm

I agree entirely.  Can't see that it was cruel which is why I object to the ban.  I still think some breeds do look better docked for the balance (Spaniels just look so looong with the tails), and I don't like most of the Dobes I have seen with tails as they tend to curl right over, ditto Boxers, but Rotties who have fat hairy Labrador tails yes, but I know one with a tail that curls over from the base and then hangs stiffly down one thigh and that looks awful, but I think the tail is damaged as it can't unbend at all.

Why they couldn't just leave it to personal choice, as docking and dew claw removal shortly after birth were not cruelty issues..

So if some of you prefer the look of fuller tails does that mean you leave your dogs undocked?

It's one of the reasons why I don't have a docked breed ... ;-)

I have the best of both worlds a tightly curled tail so it can be wagged, but also kept tidily out of the way and not whacked into your legs or the walls and furniture, nothing swept off coffee tables (well not by the tails). :D