popped into my local pah store and as normal looked on their advert board only to see a litter of Rottie pups advertised stating that their tails were docked .... was a bit surprised to say the least

Have seen a brown roan (?) that has a docked tail at the school, but alkso I saw it taken out on a sunday morning by 2 11 year olds without a parent , and it was DEFFINATLY born after 1st April, so no I am not shocked or surprised :( :( :(
Lea:)

I recently went to my vet with one of my dogs.  In the waiting room I saw a gorgeous Rottie bitch pup.  I casually asked about the docked tail, and the owner said, don't ask!  The breeder did it, and they have been reported!

Docking is not needed for breeds like the Rottie/Doberman anymore, possibly Jack Russells and small terriers could still benefit as they go into underbush to play and hunt and its to avoid injury or tail amputation later in life, but why a Rottie? plenty of other breeds survive with tails, its Just for looks isnt it, so sad. :(
Why people insist on it is beyond me, espicially since its illegal as well now. :(

Even if small dogs go under bushes to "play" it's still not a legal reason to get the tail docked. Unless it is a proven working dog it is totally illegal for the person commiting the docking to do so. It also means the dog couldn't be shown.

I meant more in the justification for chopping a dogs tail off as its never been a legal requirement.
It is  more viable for terriers to be docked still nowadays because they play in bushes and may get it caught up, that I could understand warrants a tail docking for safety reasons because of the breed type.
Rotties have no justification for losing their tails, its just for looks as plenty of bigger breeds survive with tails who are working breeds still, thats what I meant! So im happy the law was brought in for those breeds, but hope it doesnt start effecting smaller terriers in terms of tail damage they may incur.

Hope I got it across better that time! :)

Think i see what you mean now :-)
I had never seen a poodle that wasn't docked and didn't know if id like my pup with a tail. Now i absolutely love it. Think we have forgotten that some breeds actually look better with tails, but becuase it's been habit to dock them we have got used to it.

Glad I explained it better this time! :)
Think you got it in one that we are so used to it now, but if we tried it it wouldnt make a bit of difference to how we love the dog.

I think people say Rotties look mongrally with a tail, but if you cant accept a breed with its original features then maybe you shouldnt have one?
I fear that certain breeds may deterioate in popularity or suffer because they are seen as less attractive etc with a tail! Poor things, they were born with one!

I cant wait to see a Boxer with a tail on the flesh!! :)

So true Rach.
Suppose we are all creatures of habit to some extent and like what we get used to. I saw a boxer with a tail and my first thought was "oh im not sure" after a while i really liked it and think i probably prefer it. Also, what is nicer than seeing a dog wag its tail in happiness?? :-)

Dogs wagging their tails is the way alot of people tell what a dog is feeling, who knows, maybe it will help people love Rotties if they can see a wagging tail! :) Fingers crossed!

I would miss so it so much if my dogs tail was docked and he couldnt wag it!

Umm they can still wag their docked tails!!!  There are a lot of breeds I don't like with full tails, saw a Poodle yesterday and it's tail was so weird, it had crooked bits in it so it went in three weird directions!  I don't like my breed with tails although I suppose I'll never get used to it, but agree don't understand why certain breeds that have done their job of purpose for many, many years were still docked.

I must admit, seeing a little stump of a docked tail wagging makes me instantly laugh! Its rather funny as they wag quite furiously, imagine what it would look like as a full flowing tail, would be even better! :) :-P

If the tails were never docked you wouldnt even think not too like them full, its something weve grown up with docked tails, and the next generation will grow up with non docked tails and wonder what the hell we thought we were doing probably!!
Who knows where the next generation will take the docked tail! lol

yes a docked tail wags (a little) but there is no comparison to a full tail being wagged.
Maybe the poodle you saw had a weird tail because for so long many breeds haven't been bred for their tails as breeders knew full well they would be docked. My dog was bought becuase he had a lovely tail and ears.
Think now breeders will be breeding for good tails.
Also depends how they are groomed. Mine has a shaved end (as they did before) but instead of the pom pom there is a long tail of fur which curls over like a huskys tail. Beautiful :-)

Thats quite an intresting point youve raised there!

Can you breed for a certain tail type?
And will breeders now have to think of that when breeding?

Another breed which Ive wondered is it or isnt it docked is the Dulux dog, a Old English sheepdog, are they docked? or is a bobtail?

I cant wait to see a Boxer with a tail on the flesh!!

If you go to Crufts , you will see them.  They are my Breed, and I love them to death,   but I hate the tails, it is going to take a very long time to get used to them.

I would miss so it so much if my dogs tail was docked and he couldnt wag it!

A  docked tail can wag just as much as a full one....  believe me,  we miss nothing

yes a docked tail wags (a little) but there is no comparison to a full tail being wagged

Nope!!!!  they wag  a lot  just like any other breed,  you also get the added "Kidney Beaning" .

I am in  no doubt when my dogs are happy , they can wag their stump,   with the best of them.

I did say that docked tails make me laugh as the wag so furiously! lol :)

At least you are sticking with your breed even though you dont like what they are born with, but some breeders may just drop the breed and move on to another, thats a real worry for me. :(

Do you know if the Dulux dog has a docked tail?

Not sure if it is docked or boobed tail.
With regards to breeding for tails, i think breeders will be more aware of it becuase a really good quality dog could be let down with a poor tail. Not sure how mcuh they will change though.

Rach85

Re the "Dulux" dog, otherwise known as the Old English Sheepdog, some are docked but others can be born with a natural "bob tail"

I do not have a docked breed but would certainly be dismayed by the new rule if I did - therefore cannot categorically say that I would retain interest in a breed which previously was customarily docked.

Good tail set, length and carriage will have to be looked at, decided upon what is best and then bred for - all of these issues could take several generations apiece and it would not entirely suprise me if some breeders were to give up sooner than they had previously envisaged.

Tail damage can and does occur in many dogs, even those without customary docking, and is usually a serious problem being difficult to fully heal.  The new legislation IMO will have an adverse affect on some breeds more so than others which has not been taken into consideration through a blanket ban.

Thanks for clearing that up Teri, so they can be either! But I did think they were docked.

I agree that the working breeds (And I mean still working today, not working breeds that no longer work since hundreds of years ago!) should be allowed to have docked tails because it is for safety reasons not looks.
Breeders who give up on their breed because of their tails no longer being docked are a anomoly in my eyes, in one breath I would damn them for it calling them superficial and cruel to dismiss their favourite breed becasue they have yails, but in the same breath say I know how you feel if you are showing etc.

Tiz a tricky one, like you say, it shouldnt have been a blanket ban but then the dogs who arent working would still be docked so no one is going to be 100% happy!

A boxer wags from the middle down :-) the whole back end wags , if it had no tail you could see it wagging :-)))    I hate the tails on them. I saw a couple of photos my freind sent me of a young boxer pup she is running on , I don't think I will ever get my head around it. The tail looked as long as the body. Can you imagine the distruction in the house that a boxer with a tail with cause ;-)

The breeds (not just boxers)  have been bred for generations with the intent of dock so the tail set is in a desired position , I think it may take " some" breeds a few generations to get their's right.

This another reason I believe everyone should be able to become members of the KC.. it is being talked about a lot in the papers just now. If everyone were members then there is all likeness that as a collective group , members would be taken more serious in the public eye. The Government would need to take notice. 

I think it should have been left to the affected breed clubs, breeders and KC to decide whether a breed was better to be or not to be docked :)  They are the ones at grass roots level and IMO in a far better position than me,you, government or Joe Public at large to assess the position.

As for "working" breeds - every breed that was designed for a purpose other than many toys which were, as I understand it, primarily as companion/lap dogs (apologies to toy owners out there if that's too sweeping a statement!) could be classed as such.  By that definition if, as responsible custodians of their chosen breed, said breeders wish to retain the original purpose for which their breed was formed then surely docking is a logical part of that remit?  After all in the nest at but a few hours old it is impossible to tell which whelps will have the best type, temperament, drive etc towards their specific blue print so many dogs of many breeds which would otherwise be highly efficient in "work" could possibly be significantly compromised in doing so by having their tail :)

Needless to say this is a complex and emotive subject regardless of personal stance but I believe strongly that blanket bans on a great many (but not all) issues are a retrograde step :) 

So far, the Boxer puppies I have seen in the ring  with tails,  makes you realise it is going to take a few generations to get the " desired look"  to the tail,  some are to thin some are to  heavy, some have high carriage some dont.

I know , there is a guide line set down for  undocked dogs in a traditionally docked breeds, but it is not something we have had to worry over in the past.

As regards some "old breeders"  leaving their breeds (docked ones)   it is not  just down to being fickle or not liking the look of their breeds with tails.

There is a long road ahead to gain the correct  tail  , and I think  some may just not have any heart left to carry this through, I know a few in my breed,  who feel they have just had the stuffing knocked out of them.... and say, that this is the end of the line for them... they will just retire their existing dogs  when they are ready ,  to  the sofa`s and fireplaces   of their homes.

But then they are the ones who instigated this ban are they not? and it hasnt done good so far!

I think my stance is that a dog is born with a tail and should leave with a tail unless it is a current working dog and with working lines.

I appreciate that you cant tell working puppies from pet type puppies but nowadays its not even about whether or not its a working dog but because they look better with a docked tail, which is silly!

Retrievers are working dogs who have to go into underbush etc, how come they arent docked like the JR? They have massivly bushy tails and are still used in work today.

Rach - Retrievers work a totally different cover from (for eg) spaniels, terriers etc.  Unfortunately it is this type of generalisation IMO that has given weight to a ban without those enforcing the decision having the required in depth knowledge!

jackbox - completely agree about some long term breeders being like to give up on future breeding and retiring their existing stock to the sofa!  In  my own breed when the KC turned the varieties on their heads by enforced amalgamation many long standing breeders gave up entirely and it was without doubt to the detriment of the breed as a whole.  Fortunately when the KC backtracked on their decision some 5 years or so later some, but by no means all, of those having ceased active involvement found their way back. 

Let's hope that those with true knowledge and love of their chosen previously docked breeds do manage to stay active or at the very least are available as mentors to the newer generation of breeders and exhibitors.

regards Teri

But then they are the ones who instigated this ban are they not? Who?

think it should have been left to the affected breed clubs, breeders and KC to decide whether a breed was better to be or not to be docked   They are the ones at grass roots level and IMO in a far better position than me,you, government or Joe Public at large to assess the position.

These guys

The Standard Poodle that got BOB at Crufts last year was undocked I think, he is very handsome and done well in the ring. I do prefer the look of docked tails slightly, Polo is docked but has a curly tail. Polo's breeder has an undocked baby, she's about 10 months old now and as far as I've seen has a nice tail, and on the shorter side. I really wonder about the ban though, just because it seems so ill thought out. Some people with rotties are sending litters to Ireland to be born and docked, I have seen on the free puppy ads.

Just goes to show that undocked is just as pretty as docked if there winning BOB at Crufts!
This should encourage people not to abandon their breeds, as so mnay good breeders will be lost and it will be a devasting blow to some breeds who are already in short supply of good breeders!

I agree Teri with what you say, fingers crossed people will stand by their breeds.

> Re the "Dulux" dog, otherwise known as the Old English Sheepdog, some are docked but others can be born with a natural "bob tail"

In the 18th century only working dogs were exempt from taxation, pets and lap dogs were taxed and to differentiate between the working dog and the pet dog the tail was cut off or "bobbed".  The Old English Sheepdog was docked in this way until 2007 when the Welfare Of Animals Act 2006 came into force.

I know the breed standard states that the tails can be natural bobs but I have known a good few top OES breeders & none of them has ever had a natural bob.

The 18th Century dog tax was the reason many dogs in England & Wales were docked-it was to save the shilling tax(or Bob tax)this does not apply to Irish or Scottish breeds & nothing to do with what they were bred to do, except that they were working dogs

>Some people with rotties are sending litters to Ireland to be born and docked, I have seen on the free puppy ads.

The cynics amongst us would say that the adverts might say they go to Ireland for birth and docking, but most probably never leave these shores.

M.

Thanks Moonmaiden! :)

Lily MC that leaves people doing it them selves then doesnt it? Vets wont dock tails now will they?

Rach85, the GOVERNMENT decided on the docking ban, nobody else! The KC, breed clubs and most breeders were against it.

ahh I see!

Good ole goverment messing things up again is it. :( Should have known.

To Rach85 - try reading here - I think you will find that researching the origins of this ban will fail to reach closely to the doors of those who responsibly and lovingly breed the affected breeds or their breed specific Clubs :)

As I've said before, this is not something directly affecting my breed but I respect more the opinions of those dyed in the wool enthusiasts and stockmen who have nurtured and protected their breeds than the outcries of those looking for publicity and the "soft" vote.

To Lily Mc

Agreed - I doubt the ferry companies could cope with the extra traffic ;)

I have read that thread Teri and its just as torn as on here!

this was intresting tho:

The British Veterinary Association says 90% of vets are against what it describes as a painful procedure which should only be carried out for medical reasons.

I thought that breeders always said that he doesnt hurt to dock a tail?
I have always believed that it would hurt because at the end of the day you are removing the tail a very important part of a dogs body, how can breeders say it doesnt hurt when the vets are even stating it IS painful?
Its like someone said years ago that fish cant feel a hook through its mouth, what a stupid assumption which has since been proven rubbish as well! :)

Just wanting to learn more as I dont have a docked breed, not that it would effect me if I did as I would still love my breed no matter what. Its strange how people are willing to leave a breed they love becasue of a undocked tail, but if a dog is disfigured from an accident or born with a cleft pallet etc we are more then happy to keep it, surely having a tail isnt that bad when compared to real probelms to do with health.!!

>I have read that thread Teri and its just as torn as on here!

How strange - I don't find it "torn" at all :)  Just shows how perceptions can be so very different and, as I see it, why it's better to be left to those that know rather than those that make assumptions, read between lines, sensationalise etc ......

I haven't witnessed tails being docked but as far as I'm aware until recent legislation (i.e. pre current total ban in place) most vets wouldn't have witnessed it either as many long term breeders would have docked the pups themselves.

I have witnessed dew claw removal and am pro that, although I suspect that will be soon on the agenda of the BVA, RSPCA etc.

>Its strange how people are willing to leave a breed they love becasue of a undocked tail,

That is not how I see it - dedicated breeders who have strived for possibly decades to attain and maintain correct breed type and have weathered many a storm with faults that are difficult to breed out simply don't all have the heart, time, money etc to address yet another issue - particularly one which could involve many decisions that until resultant progeny over several generations has been produced and assessed, cannot properly be made :(

>Lily MC that leaves people doing it them selves then doesnt it? Vets wont dock tails now will they?

Absolutely. As I'm sure they did when it was made law that only vets could dock. Unfortunately, the responsible breeders who (as far as I saw) made far better jobs of docking tails than most vets ever did will no doubt not flout the law - it will be the people doing it in an altogether more barbaric fashion who continue and think that people are daft enough to believe their tales about trips to Ireland.

Oh, and just for the record ... firmly PRO docking here, even though I don't have a docked breed. I have, however, seen the effects of tail damage first hand, and it's not pretty.

M.

I meant as in some wanting to allow working breeds to be docked or not. I really mst start speaking what I mean, its so hard on a forum! lol

I just hope the breeds dont suffer as that is all what matters.

Its strange how people are willing to leave a breed they love becasue of a undocked tail

I think  we have tried to explain why some breeders will no longer   continue  in the breeds they love .

It is far more involved than  just ,   "because a dog has  a tail".

I can only speak for my breed, but I know of a few very knowledgeable breeders  who will be a loss to the betterment of the breed,  when they  stop breeding, , but hopefully  they will stay around and continue to be involved with mentoring newer and younger breeders.

I just hope the breeds dont suffer as that is all what matters.

If that was all that mattered, then they should have left things as they where.

> the next generation will grow up with non docked tails and wonder what the hell we thought we were doing probably!!
>

quite agree, i think cropped ears look awful (sorry to everyone with crops, just my feeling) and they are pointless...but i thnk a boxer or a rottie looks funny undocked. it really is a case of what your used to. they are going to look weird for a bit though till the breeders figure out what the tail should be looking like...

rach85 

Just goes to show that undocked is just as pretty as docked if there winning BOB at Crufts!


I am afraid it doesn't , if only life was so simple. Some breeds have smaller tails naturally so it doesn't look at bad, also in the case of the poople the pom poms are being made a bit bigger I believe which blends in a bit..  but it isn't so easy for the breeds who have naturally really long tails.

I do hope it is a inspiration to some though and do hope people stand by their breeds. I think some are just so disgusted that joe bogs gets to decide what happens to the future of their breed after years of hard work.

oh there was a gorgeous long tailed one that did very well at crufts last year or the year before (can't remember). first one i saw with a tail, it was lovely! like a big feather duster lol

It certainly wasn't affected breed clubs, breeders and KC that supported it..   

government or Joe Public   it was he the uneducated :-)

Blimey what a heated debate this has become :-)

You say that dew claw removal will be the next thing. Why are dew clws removed on some breeds?
I have seen this done (ouch) and it must hurt the same as tail docking and fishing does.

i am wondering why some of you have completely dismissed tails without really giving it a chance. We are only really seeing the first few litters of dogs with tails as the ban has not even been in place a year.

To Astarte

>it was lovely! like a big feather duster lol

Oh dear, doubt that the breeder/owner would be happy with that analogy - however accurate :(

lol, it was ment kindly! i thought it looked really nice with it, it was curled up in a spitx type way and had lovely flowing fur. but i think that the dense/longish coat probably covered up potential skinny/whippy issues that it might have had. the boxers/rotties etc i've seen with tails now, well the tails don't look great. of course thats because they've never had to. maybe the change will encourage people in the breed? a new challange to breed for, a new trait to refine and perfect.

I think a part of what will stop many people breeding (well, the responsible anyway) is that the market for homes for the traditionally docked breeds will now be much reduced I should think. Take a look at various puppy sites, and look at the amount of people with older puppies still for sale. This reduced market will slow the process towards breeding for a consistent tail that fits with the appearance of the dog.

Of course, the back yard breeders won't look at that, it will be the quality breeders that realise that the homes aren't available and stop to think. A good proportion of the BYBs are breeding puppies that barely look like their breed anyway.

It's easy to say that it's the same dog, just with a tail, but it's a big part of the appearance. Some people like pricked ears, some like floppy - some like long coats, some like short - it's just what 'appeals' to us.

M.

To Freds Mum

>You say that dew claw removal will be the next thing. Why are dew clws removed on some breeds?

All the dogs I've owned which have had dew claws remaining have had severe accidents and caused injury to people with them too.  For the people (in my experience family members being enthusiastically "hugged" by their pets) a few scars on arms and legs but for the dogs themselves it has required extremely painful surgery for the removal after various traumas :(  In an adult dog it is the equivalent of having a human thumb removed so a painful op, recovery etc and something which is very difficult to keep infection free (my own breed has front dew claws and occasional rear, the latter are customarily removed).

I would not leave dew claws on my own breeding for these reasons - unless of course it becomes illegal to do so.