Following on from the 'new dog' thread...
Why do vets always go on about getting a dog neutered around 6 months of age when there are clearly more benefits in waiting until older?
We just went with the advice of the vet and my dog was castrated at about 8 months old.  I have only been a member of this board for a few months and didn't know otherwise - especially as it seems there are more cons than pros in dogs.
He does look okay though but his middle (around the ribs and tum) is not as well built/muscled as his front and quarters.  Could this be due to early neutering (tut tut on my part) or just the gangly stage as he is 16 months old?  He is a boxer. 
I too have printed the article from the other thread and am keeping a copy in case of further additions, or if any others I know are planning on getting a pup - sorry I don't know how to add a link.

Well, not all vets!  My last vet (going back about 10 years), always advised people to wait until a dog was well over a year old, to give them time to grow, he used to say done to early they end up looking leggy, like young cattle do (apparently).

My vet pushed it but as soon as I said "I am leaving it until she has stopped growing" he smiled & agreed. He knew yet he pushed.

I suppose it is because so many dog owners are complete muppets they are encouraged to neuter everything that moves to reduce population.

Sadly it is often the most responsible owners (who could have easily contained and controlled the chances of reproduction) that neuter not the ones whose dogs are most likely to be allowed to reproduce Willy nilly.

Yes I can see that point totally in that they are trying to prevent further population growth and I guess education to prevent unwanted matings etc etc would probably fall on deaf ears in many cases.

Mine doesn't look leggy but I have seen examples of what is meant by this - my friends lab for example has legs like Bambi!

Do people think his middle section (sorry don't know the correct terms for dog anatomy) will bulk out with age or is it too late?  He doesn't look silly or skinny it's just the front and the rear have muscled up and are continuing to.  Could he be a slow developer as his sire was apparently late maturing and didn't look great until about 3-4 years old? 

He is not a show dog so it's more for my piece of mind :-) and the breeders are on their hols

My vet would have preferred to neuter at a later age but one of the adoption conditions for both our rescue dogs was neutering had to be done at 6 months of age. Our GR was actually 8 months old when he was neutered due to an error in their calculations so he was marginally luckier than the younger one who was neutered on the very last date stipulated in our agreement. We did actually get a letter from the rescue a week later reminding us of this clause so obviously the vet's letter informing them of the neutering had crossed in the post with their reminder.

My work collegue has booked her 6mth cross bitch in to be neutard next week. I am so against it but she came from a rescue and has a voucher and it has to be done before the end of the month or the voucher will not be valid. The rescue has her terrified that if she comes into season she will be mated and have pups. I have tried to say that she is better waiting till at least after the first season but she darnt because of the risk of pups. I even said check with the vet and see what they recomend and they are agreeding to do it at 6 months. Its a large cross and no way mature yet.

I feel now all I can do is step back and say nothing as she isnt going to believe me over the vet

Wendy

If she is that afraid of her getting pregnant it sounds like she doesn't really understand canine reproduction and in that case maybe getting it done sooner than later is best for her. 

I find it strange as if she doesn't allow a male to have access to her bitch no puppies. 

There's not more benefits to wait until after the first season, search the internet and you will find the proof.

There are benefits waiting till after the first season, search the internet and you will find the proof.

One of those subjects that will never have a definitive answer yeas or no.

I believe the article I linked (the Long Term effects of Neutering is pretty balanced giving both the positive and the negative, and a lot more up to date than the limited study that says half of all entire  bitches will get Mammary tumours.  The latter is certainly not supported by any straw poll of the breeders of my acquaintance or my own experience.  Many owners are frightened into having their bitches spayed young.

in bitches theres evidence to suggest neutering before a first season can prevent the liklihood of mammary tumours later in life. allowing the bitch to have even 1 season increases the chances vastly, and this is a condition that can be common, the practice i worked in previously (pdsa) would operate on perhaps 4-5 bitches a week removing mammary strips, and they are usually older bitches so anaesthetics are then a problem.

I have owned 7 entire bitches, of which 6 are/have been over 4 1/2 years of age.  Only ever had one with Mammary tumour at age five, which was removed very easily. 

She did have a partial strip at 8 1/2 when it re-appeared in the same location, and lived trouble free until 13 1/2, though I did have her spayed at the time of the lumpectomy.

Obviously those who breed do not spay their bitches before a first season, yet I know only one breeder with a large incidence of Mammary tumours in their bitches, they had four directly related Welsh Springer bitches and all had strips in middle age.

I know no-one else who has had 50% of their bitches with tumours, be they malignant or benign.

The number of bitches with Mammary strips is only relevant if you can say what proportion of the practises entire bitches these cases represent.  I can bet you had far more spay operations in than mammary strips?  If you have breeders in your practise I bet there were a fair few C sections too, but these are not routine in most bitches of most breeds.

Vets will see sick animals, the healthy ones stay at home. :D

In answer to this i think that vets are trying to make pet owners responsible but it also easy money for them, if you spay too early especially in the larger breeds( i bred Labs for over 10yrs) i think that there is more chance of urinary incontinence due to the muscles in that area not being fully formed at 6months, i also think some vets scare monger new pet owners with the  C word if they don't spay/castrate, in my experience i never had to have a mammary strip done on any of my bitches which were all spayed at the end of their breeding life and have never heard from any of my puppy people that they had to have it done either although quite a few went against my advice and had the pups done early. im not anti neutering but do believe certainly in labs that both sexes need time to mentally mature before neutering as early neutering produces what i call the peter pan syndrome where the dog remains eternally juevenile and in labs quickly gain weight, it is the same for male dogs. in the puppy pack i sent out with each pup i drafted a paragragh on the neutering which highlighted what can happen if its done too early and encouraged all the new owners to show it to the vet but most of them said we can treat all the side effects you MAY encounter and you don't want your dog to die of cancer do you ?  which i think is really poor advice as it seems just like a money spinner to me, propolin for leaking, Hills diet food for fatties etc , im sure most vets are not like this but our new puppy people are as vunerable as our puppies and to most of them  vets are god and breeders just do it for the money, any one else had experiences like this or agree/disagree with what i have said ?

brainless - we didnt actually do spays, as the pdsa are a charity, and provide care for sick animals only so i cannot comment on that. (i think they may do preventative care now, but didnt when i worked for them) the vets i worked with didnt make any money for advising neutering.
the other reason i would keep in mind is pyometras, again, we saw a very high incidence of these, and i actually recall several bitches dying, their owners hadnt got them to us on time. my friend who breeds SBT had a very young bitch with a pyo, think she was only 2 and a half, so it can happen whilst young.
the decision to neuter and at what age is a personal one and i wouldnt pass opinion on anyone who chose not to do it or on the other hand chose to do it young. we didnt neuter our 2 male GSDs and had to have them castrated last year after the eldest one (6yrs) developed a mass on one testicle, and my aunt who has 2 welsh springers also had to have the male done at 5yrs after a lump appeared.

In Response to Gill Walker

Agree entirely about the Peter Pan syndrome and about vets undermining the breeder to new pet owners.

I find it interesting that you have not experienced the 50% Mammary tumour rate quoted for bitches that have not been spayed before their first season.

I need to point out I am not against neutering, only against the neutering of immature animals.  All my bitches are spayed at around 7 years of age, except the one who had the pea size tumour who was five.  I do this to avoid Pyometra which is usually a problem with middle agd to old bitches.  All bitch owners shoudl be aware that it can occur even with a  first season.

i agree with you, thats why i had my bitches spayed after breeding, pyometra is a killer if not diagnosed early, a friend lost a young bitch with a closed pyometra she was only two with no symptoms. i also found that if you have dogs as well then your in season girls in my case had to live outside when they were in season and having them spayed after their breeding life made sure they could stay in doors for ever, not that they minded being Labs and i never left one out alone. i miss them all as i don't breed or own dogs now, this site keeps me in touch with doggie folk as i can't have any more dogs at present.

Just as a straw poll how many entire girls have you owned, and how many had mammary tumours?

i am not anti neutering just don't believe in doing it too early, especially in slow maturing larger breeds, but everyone who owns a dog has to get the best none biased advice then make up their minds, i also agree that for male dogs neutering later can be benificial, i had both my Rotties done when their show career was over, it made them less stressy when my Labs came into season, and i know it does help with certain behavioral issues in some breeds but agaian don'y do it too early in slow maturing breeds, my boys were both about 4yrs when they were done , it is always a hot potato debate though as people do feel strongly about it particularly men and castration of a beloved pet !!!!

5 entire girls until they were finished breeding and no mammary trouble at all, they were all spayed about 7yrs, all Labs

That is interesting, so would you agree on anecdotal evidence that the rate of Mammary tumours quoted at Pet owners is exaggerated.

Hmm, I've only had one bitch that need mammary stripped. 6 bitches that were spayed at/over 4 years of age with most being over 7 when done. I also recommend to new owners to wait until after a first season at the earliest to get a bitch spayed, and after a year if a male. Though with males I also asks them to wait out the teenage months (years ;-) ) if they can. My main reasons are growth and incontinence problems that may occur if done too early. No-one really wants an unexpected litter of pups, but it can be avoided with care.

I had my male castrated when he was 10 months, i was open minded as to have him done or not, but he kept weeing up my leg when i walked him (not nice) and i had to maintian the balance with him and my parents bossy terrier (also castrated!)  I think the age he was done was good for him, he has got nice muscle tone (i won't let him gewt fat) i don't think he is too peter pan! I do think a lot of scare tactics are used to get people to neuter young, and i would much rather see a well matured dog.
J

I have always had bitches spayed later than most - 4 plus years. The one exception, a Yorkie bitch that had her first season at 5 months - which I had never experienced before or since.  She had an awful phantom pregnancy and I had her spayed before she was a year old.  My dogs have either been entire, or castrated around 2-3 years.  One exception (again) is my current Border Collie boy.  He only had one descended testicle, and the second remained in the inguinal canal.  I waited until he was over a year old, and the second testicle was actually nowhere near the size of the descended one when my vet removed it.  I had it removed rather than risk cancer.  I have no regrets about waiting as he looks like a male should, and is a lovely fit, firm muscled boy.  However, I've never experienced testicular cancer in entire males that I've owned.  I have also never had a bitch with mammary cancer.  Am I just lucky, or is it not as rife as we are lead to believe?

>However, I've never experienced testicular cancer in entire males that I've owned.  I have also never had a bitch with mammary cancer.  Am I just lucky, or is it not as rife as we are lead to believe?

We can't all be 'just lucky', so it seems the risks aren't as great as we're told.

i do, but im not a vet so i don't know what their figures are and wether its breed specific, my mum breeds westies and has done for over 30yrs and she has never had mammary strips done and rarely spays and has only once i think had pyometra, but when i worked in a boarding/breeding kennel for 21 yrs wih Golden Retrievers as the breeding side we never had a mammary strip done and only two pyometras and at one point had over 10 bitches of breeding ages, we did spay after the breeding life was over though which maybe why we had no mammary trouble, most of them did die of cancer in one form or another though mostly in old age . i think some breeds are more cancer prone than others and wether its mammary or not doesn't matter , i do think vets use that particular cancer and testicular to scare unexperienced puppy owners into having the surgery, they should just advise to have it done later not at 6mnths old.

Do you think that bitches that have been used for breeding have a reduced risk of mammary tumors, as I believe, women who have had children have a reduced risk of breast cancer?

I rather doubt it, as my girl had had two litters, and someone posting on here had a boxer bitch that had been an ex puppy farm brood who had them, and I think may have even died (though lack of early treatment by her former owners may have been the reason).  cetainly Pyometra is more common in maiden bitches that are middle aged to old.

I got Piper from the RSPCA and wasnt allowed to adopt her unless I agreed to get her spayed at 6mths, wasnt happy as I wanted to wait until she was fully grown and said I wanted my vet to do it not someone I had never even met. I was right to be worried as she is now a year and has slight incontience problems which my vet said may get worse as she gets older. Skye is two and will be getting done this year.
Mary

possibly due to the use of hormones but i still think it can be breed related as well, some breeds are just more prone to it, and bitches who are less fertile are probably less likely to get it as well, a bit like bitches who come into season 5mnths or less each time are more likely to get pyometra, i gues hormones play a big part which is why vets want non breeders like our pet people to neuter.

My boy had a undesended testicle and when I first went to my vet the young chap said he should be done at 6 months. I then went home and chatted to other Newfie owners and my friend who owns his mum and many suggested I waited till he was near 2 years of age  . We even compared the looks of Newfies who were done early to those who were entire or done at a much later date. There did seem to be a difference in the muzzle shapes but I am still not 100% sure on that. I went back to the vets and spoke to the chap who is number one, a lovely chap and he told me to wait till as he put it ' allow him to became the dog he should be '. I waited till he was nearly 2 then they operated which had to be done. All was well apart from a large blood blister around his you know what (can't remember the technical name) which the vet drained.
For me I am glad I waited.