Read a comment on another thread that got me thinking.

I prepared a very comprehensive puppy pack to go with all my puppies, simply laid out and eay to understand in a folder, and it included, amongst other things, feeding information. Also, a copy of 'the Perfect Puppy' and also 'Book Of The Bitch' for any bitch owners. They got other things, like toys and a CD with photos/videos of their pup, Mum and the litter on it.

However, upon speaking to some of them, it is really obvious that they either haven't read a thing, or haven't read it properly. One new owner had been to vets for vaccs at 8 weeks, having only had pup for three days, and come away without wormer, which to me suggests their vet isn't that good anyway. It is quite disheartening. I have also noted, 2 owners haven't transferred their puppies into their names with the KC.

When we got our girl, we didn't get that much info, just the basics, although enough, but we read it all thoroughly, then read it again. Transferring her into our name was one of the first things we did.

So, is what I am finding common? It baffles me.

I find the same thing unfortunately, as they say you can lead a horse to water, but can't maek them drink.

As far as the Kennel club are concerned I still own around 40 dogs yet only 6 should be there (though two are dead now).

Ditto - I spend ages putting useful info together and then find that owners obviously havent read what is there. I also "own" numerous dogs. That doesnt really bother me, after all the new owners have contract etc to prove they acquired the dog legally, but I do get a little upset by seeing one of mine which is sadly no longer with us and wish there was some way of taking him off the KC records. Makes me wonder - according to KC records how many deceased people own deceased dogs???

Wish i'd got a pup from you Jackson. I came away with very little. The KC documents & 6 weeks free insurance and the pup, that was about it, oh and she told me what times she had fed him.
Luckily i had bought lots of books and done research but i would have been thrilled to come away with such an extensive puppy pack.

Thankyou. I hope my puppy owners appreciated it also, and at some point even those who haven't read the books yet will make use of them.

We didn't get much when we got our girl either. A very brief contract, the KC documents, a pedigree certificate. (made by the breeeder, it was quite nice actually!) a tiny bag of food which would have lasted about 2 meals, and an A4 sheet of paper with some info on it. We do, however, get constant advice (some of which is not wanted/needed/warranted. LOL) and the breeder has our girl bacl for holidays, which is great as we wouldn't leave her in kennels. She has also offered ot have any puppies we bred for holidays also, as we are moving away in April, which is lovely of her. We're very lucky really.

Well I have to confess I never added my name to the KC paperwork. It just seemed like a waste of money too me. Mind you I had no contract either but my friends and I like to call the owners of his mum and dad  friends who are always in contact by phone or emails and we share plenty of photos too.
What are the advantages of having my name on the certificate?

I may be wrong, but I don't think KC registration has any legal standing as far as legal ownership goes.  I have to confess that it usually takes some months for me to get round to changing KC registration into my name :-o

I dont think it does, either, Jen - but the KC must make lots of money through it.

I solved that quite easily, trouble is if you give all the puppy pack with the pup, of course they are in awe of the pup, who wants to sit and read. :-D

Everyone gets a nice fat folder on the raising of their pup when they come to view my bitch or when they come at 4 weeks to visit their pup for the first time.

The only thing they take away with their pup is the KC papers and pedigree, the DVD, insurance toys and food, that way they have nothing to read and nothing to ask on collection day as they know exactly what they are doing, and when to do it all, the only thing to do is fill out the transfer of ownership which most do on that first week.

Reading is the last thing anyone wants to do when taking their pup home, but pre-collection they are so excited they want to read everything and get everything ready for their new family member. :-)

It doesn't have true " real rights" of ownership the KC doc BUT if ownership was challenged in a court of law along with other supporting documentations it would have weight without a doubt.

It is like the Car registration. It is the registered keeper not neccesarily they owner but again with supporting documents collectively can have weight if challenged.

When we got our girl, we wanted to transfer ownership for 'sentimental' reasons as much as anything else. She is our first dog together, my Fiances first dog, one he had wanted for years before being in the right circumstance to get her. It was lovely getting her documents back in our name, and considering what dogs cost, another £12 isn't much. I would be the same if we bought another puppy.

I suppose that is why I find it odd that people don't/haven't transferred them.

I think people just forget or don't think they have to. I am convinced when people pick up pups they are on another planet at times :-D

It doesn't have true " real rights" of ownership the KC doc BUT if ownership was challenged in a court of law along with other supporting documentations it would have weight without a doubt.


You would think so wouldn't you Blue.......... Nope not so, the KC document is of no use whatsoever as people sell on dogs without the documents, have verbal agreements that go wrong, they can outright lie, returning a dog to a breeder without yet signing over the transfer and then wanting it back? It has no legal standing whatsoever for many reasons.

I know a husband and wife, the wife had the KC documentation in her name, the microchip details, even the vet book, she did the shows and everything, not one thing meant anything to the judge concerned all he cared about was who paid for the dog, the husband had proof via a cheque stub that he paid for him, and he got the dog! :-(

My advice to anyone is pay for a dog via a cheque or make sure that a cash receipt states the name of the person on it, that is all that matters in a court of law.

> I suppose that is why I find it odd that people don't/haven't transferred them.

For me the reason for having a dog was companionship and not the scrap of paper with his name on it. Call me tight but I can't see for me it has any relevent use. Ok it has the family history but in fairness I know nothing of all the other dogs and I put my trust in the club and the breeders. The only time I have used it was on a Newfie forum where we compared each others and it did throw up some interesting links. I have my boy and he will be loved till his last day and then some.

There was a case of a pedigree cat that got lost and a family found it. The real owners eventually found out where it was. The cat wasn't chipped, and the new people had had him for quite a while from what  remember. The court ordered it be handed back to the original owner because they could show they had it registered in their name.

For me the reason for having a dog was companionship and not the scrap of paper with his name on it. Call me tight but I can't see for me it has any relevent use.

I'd feel very uncomfortable knowing a dog I owned was registered as belonging to somebody else. How many have actually got a receipt proving a dog was paid for? I have for some of the dogs I've bought but certainly not all, so transferring the reg, even for a dog never to be anything but a pet, gives me peace of mind.

I know a husband and wife, the wife had the KC documentation in her name, the microchip details, even the vet book, she did the shows and everything, not one thing meant anything to the judge concerned all he cared about was who paid for the dog, the husband had proof via a cheque stub that he paid for him, and he got the dog! :-(

That's because dogs are property in the eyes of the law. So if there never was a receipt, the next best thing is definitely to get the registration in your name as at least it is some proof -after all the breeder has to sign it for it to be transferred.

Carrington my young lady who's husband left her a few years back left both of his dogs with her. He had no interest in them. Very sad but as I said to her you love them and he did not so they have a wonderful life with you and are loved.
She asked me recently if I would move in but sadly she would not have my Newfie and so I had to say no. She understands but me and my old boy come as a package deal :)

MarianneB I do have a receipt showing the amount paid and signed for proof of purchase. I guess she has faith in me and considering that I was told that a fair few newfies are given up on I think I'm doing well.
He walked, he's fed, he's got his own home costing £13000 to build, got the best insurance I could find at near £50 a month and has his own 9 acre lake to swim in. I would say he is a very lucky chap compared to some.

Sorry Carrington if you read my post again  it can contribute with supporting evidence IE receipt , a statement from the seller etc. I Clearly said that it didn't have any weight on it's own and even pointed out an example ie Car ownership.

know a husband and wife, the wife had the KC documentation in her name, the microchip details, even the vet book, she did the shows and everything    A microchip detal , vet book is NOT the supporting documents I was refering to , they do show anything towards ownership so would not could as supporting evidence.

I can assure you that in 2 senarios

1) If you had a receipt or a written statement from the seller along with the kennel club document  or

2) A written statement but no KC doc ( and the document was signed over in someone's name after the date on the receipt)

No 1 WOULD HAVE SOME WEIGHT.

This is where ( no disrespect you to Carrington)  experience or understanding of legal definition either makes sense or not.

Microchipping,  a vet book can be anyone, your auntie could have taken the dog.. They are NOT supporting documentation.

My advice to anyone is pay for a dog via a cheque or make sure that a cash receipt states the name of the person on it, that is all that matters in a court of law.


Whilst I 100% agree with this statement, this often on it's own isn't enough either. If the KC document was signed from one person to another ( not including the breeder) after the date of sale could raise questions as to whether the dog was then sold after that.

OR just to put another twist on it ,   If you have a receipt for £500 for a dog and then I come along with my bank statement showing a cash transfer from my bank to yours 12 hours before you buy the dog..there opens the debate again why supporting documents CAN ALWAYS have some baring.

Exactly   supporting information is things that would prove ownership ie where the microchipping form would not show the real owner if you could prove there was a change of ownership this could be weight to show a intention of change which would would allow someone to assume ownership had changed..  Hope that makes sense to someone. :-)

Law isn't as cut and dry as someone saying,

"I know this woman and this is what happened to her".. Gosh I wish I had £5 for everytime I hear that.

What makes the difference between cases is someone legally qualified finding something that shows, "intention of change" or "proof of changes"

Here's a simple example for some of you..

(A) Lady buys a car from Bill for £10000 gets a cash receipt , transfers the Keeper log over to herself.

(B) Lady buys a car from Bill also for £10000 gets a cash receipt and transfers the keeper log over to herself. 

looks like to identical senarios..  NO lady B may have bought a car that was stolen, (real right can never be transferred on stolen property) , or it had HP on the car and only 2 repayments had been made ( again no real right can be passed as they car was not owned to sell)

I really try not to get into legal debates too much , I say it all the time someone always comes along with a senario they think is the same when it never actually is ..     I am confident in my advice BUT people have to be careful on the internet not to read some posts and take them as 100% right likewise I think people have to also be careful when giving out legal advice that they are sure what they are saying is right :-)  So many readers misinterpretate things,  sometimes the posts with legal advice I read frighten me to death.   It is no wonder people get themselves into so much trouble :-)

didnt read whole thread but had simliar experience. i wrote in my puppy pack that i advise not to neuter males under a year mostly because they need to mature and for the coat to mature and  one woman had a male done at 9 months! she said vet said it was best so what can you do? some people just ignore advise

I found out about a dog tattooed as a puppy, when litters are tattooed they are at first registered to the breeder, who then signs the transfer form & gives it to the new owner, who then transfers the ownership to themselves. The puppy had been sold to the husband & he had transferred the dog into his sole ownership. He paid cash & never asked for a receipt as he & the breeder were close friends. Some three years later his wife upped & left him taking the dog with her for some unknown reason. She disappeared into thin air. Some two years later the dog ended up in a rescue who rehomed him without contacting the tattoo data base(the breeder always takes her dogs back at any time during their lives so the dog could have been returned to her)

The people who got the dog from the rescue had the dog microchipped by the rescue( I won't say which one)& registered the chip in their name. They took the dog to their vets to be castrated in accordance to the rescues conditions. Their vet spotted the tattoo on the routine inspection & asked the new owners about it, they said the tattoo didn't count as the dog was microchipped. The vet wasn't happy at their response & so contacted the nearest NDTR tattooist. The dog's real owner was traced & he told the vet not to castrate his dog. The"new"owners came to collect"their"dog only to find the actual owner waiting with him. The "new owners" & the representative from the rescue argued that the chip proved ownership & that possession is 9/10s of the law. The upshot is that the police were called & after taking advise allowed the real owner to depart with his dog, as he had proof of ownership-the tattoo predated the chip & despite the rescue & "new owners"going to court to get"their"dog back, the dog remained with his owner

This didn't happen in the UK but the dog was bred in Germany & ended up in Northern Ireland & then was moved to Eire, but the same rules of ownership apply. The real owner could prove the breeder signed the dog over to him well before the dog was chipped & the theft by his wife was reported to the Police. The real owner had no receipt, but the transfer of the ownership with the SV database proved he did own the dog.

It would not happen today as all GSD's are both Tattooed & chipped in Germany(their Tattoo is their SV registration number)& also DNA profiled

I'll be DNA profiling my dogs when I can afford it, even though they are all tattooed & three are also chipped(for Pet Passport & DNA genetic condition testing)

I see where you're comng from sara1bee, but puppies are like children. How you bring them up and the methods you use are so varied and different people recommend different things, often with cnflicting advise. Just look at the boards on here-different people deal with things in different ways. When i picked up my pup the breeder told me to feed weetabix with lots of milk. The vet told me there's no need to do that and can cause serious upset tummies - so who's advise do i take. I would always take a vets advise.

I would always take a Vets advice on disease, but not on animal husbandry i.e. training, breeding or neutering. 

Vets are trained to be very pro neutering as canine welfare organisations have the over simplistic view that neutering everything that moves reduces the amount of dogs in rescue.  Perhaps it does reduce the odd accidental litters, but the people who are likely to have accidents and not know how to deal with them are the ones least likely to neuter their pets, on cost grounds alone.

Those responsible owners who do neuter their pets as the responsible thing could probably have ensured their dogs did not reproduce anyway (or in the unlikely case of an accident take the appropriate veterinary measures), and would only need to do it on health grounds.  On balance there are few health benefits to neutering male dogs compared with negatives.  There are occasionally behavioural and social benefits (male to male sexual aggression, or when the owner has entire bitches).

Perhaps that's why the vet recommended neutering - becuase he foresaw an "accidnetal litter". I didn't mean it to come out wrong, but i think to expect owners to take breeders advise for everything is unrealistic.

But the breeder should be the expert on the dogs, the Vet is not.  I am pretty sure the breeder woudl ahve pointed out the problem with two entire animals, and ensured the owner knew what to do about it, i.e. board one of them out.

Im not sure that expert is the right word for the breeder, merely experianced similar situations. maybe i see things differently. To put into another context, i find out from the Doctor i have got a condition. My friend also has that condition. I would listen to my friends advise but ultimately i would listen to my Doctor for the final diagnosis and reommendations. Professionals are more up to date with the latest technology and ways to deal with it. Much the same as a vet. I would value others opinions but woud 9 times out of 10 go with the pro.

That is what I am saying a Vet is a pro about the diagnosis and treatment of animal disease, a breeder should be an expert on canine husbandry and especially their own breed and lines.

Unless they have a speciality, Vets are not canine nutritionists, usually not experts on breeding (unless they happen to be breeders too), canine behaviourists and especially not breed experts.  In most things dog or horse or what ahve you they are just interested lay persons.

:-)  Think we have our wires crossed :-)
I do agree with that;so if the vet recommended neutering i dont see the problem. It is slightly young but the vet obviuosly had the reasons.
If my vet said that's what needed to be done then i would do it.

that possession is 9/10s of the law This is another one that cracks me up as it isn't true.

I guess it ended well for the dog in this case or hopefully..

Well no as most Vets try and get people to neuter too young for the dogs benefit, as they are taught to neuter everything for social reasons, not sound veterinary ones.

Apart from older Vets I find very few point out the negative effects of pre-pubertal neutering, and some of them can seriously affect the dogs quality of life and the owners enjoyment of their dog.

I put in bold type on my puppy information pack, please read fully, I also put post it notes on KCdocuments to advise them to change pup over. My pack is 15 pages long and I know that owners do not read it as we have phone calls over things that are printed in puppy pack. I ask if they have read the bit about ??? in the puppy pack to which they always retort 'No'. Then give them the advice and tell them which page of the pack it is in.
In response to Fillis, I questioned the kc about removing dead dogs and dogs that were not owned by me but they will not remove anything at all.

It may seem silly but it does upset me when I see my dead girls still listed.

Me too, Brainless - and from the website point of view, what a waste of space.

Me also, I just wish they would let us update our details.

>I'll be DNA profiling my dogs when I can afford it, even though they are all tattooed & three are also chipped(for Pet Passport & DNA genetic condition testing)

mine are chipped, tattooed and DNA profiled - im so scared of them being stolen and not being able to prove they are mine, although im sure any thief would bring them straight back !!

>if the vet recommended neutering i dont see the problem. It is slightly young but the vet obviuosly had the reasons. If my vet said that's what needed to be done then i would do it.

What about the fact that medically it's better (therefore the veterinary preference) for a bitch which is destined to have a litter to have the pups as soon as possible (ie at her first season) and then be spayed? Good breeders know that this is unethical, even though it's medically sound. Personally I'd go with the breed club's advice rather than the medical advice.

I would always take a Vets advice on disease, but not on animal husbandry i.e. training, breeding or neutering. 

I agree completely. And then some. When I got my girl, my vets opinions varied a bit on what my breeder told us. The breeder said ' does your vet breed dogs himself'. No. So she said 'just ignore him then, he doesn't know what he is talking about'. Whilst her views may have been extreme, (at the time I did think she was mad!) now, several years on, I have come to realise that she does have a point.

Vets, at the end of the day, are only human. They are open to making mistakes just like the rest of us. They are also bound by certain rules and protocols. For example, where vaccinations are concerned. They must stick to what vaccine manufacturers reccomend, or they risk legal action in the event of problems arising from vaccinating. We now know it is often not required to vaccinate each year, and that doing so can cause problems, but vets still routinely do it. They also routinely vaccinate before 12 weeks, despite their being strong evidence to suggest it is far more effective to vaccinate after this age, citing solcialisation as being important. Of cours eit is, but it i s perfectly possible to socilaise a pupyp that is not yet vaccinated. We all know that there is a mssive risk of urinary incontinence in large breed spayed bitches if spayed before their first season, yet vets still do it.

My friend is a receptionist at our vets. One of the vets dogs has bitten two of the nurses there. I think that suggests what he knows about dogs.

> I do agree with that;so if the vet recommended neutering i dont see the problem. It is slightly young but the vet obviuosly had the reasons.
> If my vet said that's what needed to be done then i would do it.

Whe I got Rjj he was 13 weeks old & his titre test showed he needed vaxing, I took him to the vet & was told that because he only had one testicle he needed to be castrated as soon as possible as the retained testicle could become cancerous.

Now had I gone along with this young vet's request I would have had my entire boy castrated, his testicles were up & down like a set of yoyo's(which is quite normal)& when he stopped teething they were both present. I had no intention of having my boy done, I knew he would end up entire & in the words of my vet who popped his head into the consulting room when he heard my voice"Pablo(the young vet)Dyane knows more about dogs testicles as puppies than you will ever learn"

Many vets see castration & spaying as early as possible as the norm, however when I took my kittens in for their jabs, the vet I saw agreed with me dogs need to mature before neutering, whereas cats need neutering asap(usually when they tip 2 kgs)because of the spraying & kittens being fertile much early that dogs. Reg was around 14 weeks old when he was done & his sister a bit older as she is smaller. There is no research to show that cats have the same growth problems as dogs after neutering & it certainly does make toms much nicer in nature.

im very lucky that i have a wonderful vet who has proved how good he is time and agin in the past, hence why i would always go with what he says.

I tend to stick with the 'old'vets as I have seen and heard time and again new fangled ideas coming in only to be proven later that the 'old' way was better. My vet is of the old school and I respect everything he says about any of my dog's health, however I agree that vets are not the best to give advice re: breeding, husbandry etc, they are qualified in diagnosing animal disease and the treatment of. Breeders have a wealth of experience of their dogs lines, whelping, seasons, feeding, training etc and they are far better to ask opinions about these than your vet

I haven't spoken to my breeder since the day i picked my pup :-(  But luckily my vet has given all the advice i've needed.

That's a shame, did the breeder not call you to see how the pup was settling in? I call mine the day after the pup goes, then weekly for the first month after, then either e-mail or call on a regular basis. However there have been 3 owners in the last 15 years that have not wanted to keep in-touch, that is their perogative and I do respect that.

> & it certainly does make toms much nicer in nature.

My entire tom is by far the biggest softy out of the 3 cats I own, the girls will take cuddles on their terms but Jack is always they to be carried and tickled.  And he doesn't spray either & lives indoors.   I think beeding & rearing has more to play in cats temperament than neutering.   All my 'moggies' have been lovely cats but quite skitty & nervous of strngers, my pedigrees have all have wonderfully bombproof temperaments & this is backed up working in a cattery too.  The nasty ones, 99% of the time are the moggies.

I wouldn't neuter a cat male or female, until it was 6 months old, a few months later if I could manage it.  Neutered cats can spray too.

No i've heard nothing from the breeder. She was resonably good before i got my pup but heard nothing from the day i picked the pup. Admitidally i haven't spoken to her, but to be honest if she couldn't be bothered/didn't care how the pup had settled in, then why should i make contact with her. She has really gone down in my estimation and i'd never recommend her. It seems as though she wanted the money and that was it! Not sure how she could let the pups go without so much as a phone call to check it all went well. In hindsight she wasn't very "lovey" with the pups either which i think is a bit odd. Suppose it's all part of the learning curve of buying a puppy.
Would love to have a breeder who took so much time and really cared. Theres time's when Freddie reminds me of one of his parents and there is part of me that wants to know how his parents are or how the rest of his littermates are and what they're up to. Would also be nice to have a "mentor" but im doing ok as i am i think...i hope :-)

> All my 'moggies' have been lovely cats but quite skitty & nervous of strngers,

How odd I have had the total opposite experience & mine current two mug people when they call, they both come for cuddles & stroking & only move when I make them. None of the many neutered toms I have had has ever sprayed.

My cats by rights should have major hangups according to 99% of pedigree breeders as I got them at 6 weeks due to the flooding last year. They are like all my mogiies, dog proof & laid back & they always come when called. Reg the tom is OTT on the affection at times

It was interesting when I went on the chipping course, my moggies were the first to be done & Reg & Jaq purred throughout the whole thing. On the other hand all the others(who were all pedigrees BTW)complained & cried, before, after or during & some all three ! One Main Coon nearly exploded when they tried to chip him , he was detinitely not a happy laid back chappie.

> Would love to have a breeder who took so much time and really cared. Theres time's when Freddie reminds me of one of his parents and there is part of me that wants to know how his parents are or how the rest of his littermates are and what they're up to. Would also be nice to have a "mentor" but im doing ok as i am i think...i hope

My Wukee's breeder is in regular contact & when we left with them her partner brought the puppies out to the car & then had to go in becuase he was in tears. Normally the puppies leave with a puppy pack, but as both the other new owner & myself have been friends with the breeder for over 30 years she though we would be insulted if she gave instructional booklets

This litter has been a really wonderful one, they have such character & intelligence, they are all without exception outgoing & quite bold, a true tribute to the upbringing for the first 6 weeks(yes we did get them at 6 weeks, this is quite usual with working bred BCs(& WSDs as well))

In Response to Freds Mum

Just in the breeders defence I tell all my new owners to contact me whenever they wish, but I do not like to be heavy handed and ring them up. 

Must admit I do prefer email, as that way people can answer as ans when they feel they need to.  Phoning someone you may catch them at a bad moment etc, or they may take it as interfering.

I do often email interesting articles appropriate for the time of the pups lives, like bitestop, nail cutting, the neutering pros and cons etc.

Your breeder may be quite anxiously/hopefully awaiting your contact.

I ahve recently rang around the owners of my oldest litters to see who was still with us and who not.

As an owner you only have a few breeders to keep in touch with, as a breeder you may have many puppy owners over the years, so it is far more practical for the owner to ring the breeder.