>This is a big problem for us in Wales too

Even bigger problem for exhibitors from Northern Ireland as you automatically need to add about £200 for the ferry crossing! 

I am hoping to begin showing with my next pup but when a colleague who shows took me through the associated costs, I had a few second thoughts.  I think I'll only do local shows to begin with and see if its worth the additional money to go further afield.

Hi to Blue, couldn't agree more about showing if you live in Scotland, (we're west of Aberdeen) we try to go to as many Championship shows as we can.  Unfortunately all the "closer" ones to us eg Leeds, Blackpool etc, don't have tickets and not even a class for our breed at Border Union.  No breed club up here so all we've got in Scotland is SKC. It's like a military operation to go to Bath or WKC, don't ask how long it took to get to Richmond and as much as we'd have loved to, we've never made it to Paignton or Bournemouth as it's just too far.  How we'd love to live near Stafford, it would be super without the horrendously long distances.  Friends in the breed who live down there often say that they wouldn't do it if they lived as far North as we do. What makes us chuckle is when you hear people complaining at SKC about the distance they've had to travel, they haven't a clue!  Five more years or so and then we'll be going back to England permanently (we'll probably be too doddery to show by then!!!)

My contract also states:

If the endorsements concerning registering of puppies is to be lifted then the parent must have had elbow and hip ex-rays that are within the breed average scores and must have an acceptable temperaments and be of sufficient breed merit (I would like to have the opinion of at least one independent Bernese specialist to confirm this) to justify the breeding of a litter of pups.

and I make sure the new owners initial this paragraph to ensure they understand it fully!
Aileen

This was one of the reasons I gave up showing after my hubby died, was the cost as I am also in Scotland, I only went as far as Crufts and then got "The show bus there" a long night and day, travelling during the night, showing the dog, and leaving just after Crufts finished, then had to pick up my car and travel home from where we got on the bus, I do miss the "buzz" on the bus and the friends I made over the years of showing. 

The 2nd reason was if I enter 1 dog for a ch show, I really do not have anyone to look after the other 2, o.k. if the show is in Scotland, but, not suitable if its English shows.

Now that the cost has really gone up, and up, and the cost of petrol I really feel for you all, trying to make ends meet at times is hard.

If I ever go back to showing  I will do open shows, which I still go to spectate now and again and pick ch shows that are nearer home.

Living in Bristol I limit myself to Stafford being as far North as I go (did go to Hound Association of Scotland as a little break a few years ago as wanted to support the breed judge).  I do have the added problem of no transport, but of course the plus side of that is sharing the fuel costs with my lifts.

It is maybe fortunate that my breed only has 19 sets of CC's now, so there isn't the temptation to do more shows than I can afford, but the timing of the ones in my catchment area mean I have most of the shows in July and August when the dogs are looking their worst, or the bitches will decide to be in season.

I have still managed to get 10CC's and two group places and win a champ stakes outright with my Jozi, and make up her daughter at the same time.

Mine might be a numerically smaller breed, but the upperhouse aren't retired young as they are in many breeds, and it isn't unusual to find nearly a whole class of champions in dogs and bitches.

Quality in many numerically small breeds can be high.

> I see it on here as well that people put on their puppy contracts that endosements will be lifted once health testing is done.. what about when the dog turns out a very very poor specimen of the breed.   People give them the green light to go on and breed more poor examples from the poor example.

As from now on, all future puppies/kittens I sell will go out as 'progeny not for registration' or 'Non Active' and unless the dog is shown or worked with reasonable success, I will not lift it.   As for kittens/cats, I think there's far too many people calling themselves 'hobby breeders with 3+ queens & a stud cat breeding litters each year with very poor specimens, the ratio of kittens bred to kittens/cats shown is very poor.

100% agree. 

There's a discussion on the MSN Our Cats group about the KC -v- GCCF as they wanted to know more about the Accredited Breeder Scheme and whether it would be worth implimenting something similar in cats.  

Oh gosh hope they come up with a better plan that MR. I.  has ;-) 

I dont think any of  breed clubs of my breed are too happy with the ABS

Accolades for how many litters you have bred ( can you imagine) LOL and accolates for being a member of any breed club but who cares about the others breeds that the person is breeding the butt off they they don't not have any club membership of :-)

You just have to run down the list of my breed on here to see how many people have it listed as a 2nd and 3rd breed. ( not directed at the genuine ones) :-)

> You just have to run down the list of my breed on here to see how many people have it listed as a 2nd and 3rd breed. ( not directed at the genuine ones) :-)

You have a 'bread & butter' breed unfortunately.  Its easy to keep a WHWT or 2 and breed a yearly litter from them as the pups will always sell and that 'keeps' the breeds you show/breed occasionally.

Sadly your right.

I had an e-mail from someone just yesterday looking for a stud for an unregistered bitch.  The e-mail addy was different from the signing off name which I thought a bit strange. I typed the e-mail address into google up can a breeder/exhibitor actually listed on here of another breed.

In the e-mail it was a different story ;-) 

All my pups go with endorsed registrations. If someone has persuaded me to sell them a 'show prospect' and it does well, then I will consider lifting it. BUT they buy it knowing that they cannot breed from it and if they don't like it they can go elsewhere. If someone calls for a breeding bitch I always say no.When purchasing a puppy it should not be the first thing on the mind!!

I have had people who seem lovely but as soon as you mention the contract and the endorsements they suddenly say we'll have to think about it. Doesn't matter how much they think if they shy away when you mention it they will not get a puppy, full stop.

I'm also biting my tongue. There are more reasons for breeding dogs than for 'Just the  show ring'. Dogs that are bred for working or for much loved pets (the most important reason in my view) are far more valuable than 'just for the show ring', providing that all the relevant health tests have been carried out for the breed. How many people in this country that own dogs actually want to show their dogs. They want them primarily as family pets. Sorry about the bold.

Quite right, the puppy should be wanted for itself, not just as a 'potential show ring winner' either. If it doesn't show well, does it just get dumped? When it's too old for breeding, does it just get dumped? One poster on here seems to think that only unregistered puppes find their way into shelters. Not true I can assure you. Not all breeders who are members of the Kennel club and register their puppies are ethical. I'm extremely upset at the moment. One breeder who I have had the misfortune to cross paths with is very 'ethically' dumping 6 of her breeding bitches as the puppies can no longer be registered and has been found out to have been breeding litters 'in between' registered litters and selling them unregistered. Unfotunately, or is it fortunately, my evidence is leading to the breeder being prosecuted.

> There are more reasons for breeding dogs than for 'Just the  show ring'. Dogs that are bred for working or for much loved pets (the most important reason in my view) are far more valuable than 'just for the show ring', providing that all the relevant health tests have been carried out for the breed. How many people in this country that own dogs actually want to show their dogs. They want them primarily as family pets.

Yep but when choosing a pedigree pup they also want them typical looking examples as well as healthy and good natured, and some want them with working ability first and foremost I agree. 

There will be plenty left over from such litters to make non working/non show pets, as even the best quality litters will only have one or two outstanding pups for show or working traits, and it would be impossible for a show or working dog breeder to exist without people wanting the remaining majority of the litter as companions.

It is generally accepted that there are more dogs bred than there are good homes available for.  The only reason any dog or bitch should be used for breeding is for soem workign purpose and/or to improve and maintain the quality and typical traits of a breed, in appearance and where appropriate working ability.  No litter should be bred where the expectation is that none will be of the quality to be shown or worked, after all the show and working dogs should be pets too.

So for me deliberately breeding of non standard colour or coat would be out, having them appear and homed as non standard pets is another matter.

I think it sad that in the UK Gundog world for example there is such a huge difference in appearance between show and working dogs.  In my won and many breeds in other countries this split is not so evident as a good hunting dog can't gain it's title unless it is also very typical in looks, and can and does win first quality grading at shows.  The same goes for the show dogs they cannot gain their show titles unless they prove them selves at a hunting trial.

In Response to orjack

That is quite another matter, and sadly there are more bad than ethical breeders, and many of them do have registered stock, and a lot of ethical breeders feel frustrated at the KC not being strict enough, about accepting registrations from such people.

If only people with health tested show winning or working stock could KC reg their pups the Kennel club would be financially ruined, but the breeding from the bad breeders would continue with alternative mickey mouse registrations, as some already do now, and the general public believe they are getting a registered dog.

The KC would like to see standards of the not so good improved by education nd peer pressure Rather than cutting them out, in truth it is more about the money.

The KC does do a lot of good with it's money so loosing the income is an issue.  On the other hadn soem countries you can't register a litter until the KC rep has looked at tehm and pronunced them typicla, health tests are mandatory and teh parents must have won at a certain level at shows or gained awards working.  Sounds great, but we all know of great sires or dams that were not shown, but were used by knowledgeable breeders as they had the desired qualities.

Our KC has set up an Accredited breeders scheme yet those who want to work the system and appear more than they are are drawn to it, making the best breeders loathe to be associated with it.

>I think it sad that in the UK Gundog world for example there is such a huge difference in appearance between show and working dogs.

Totally agree Brainless,  My own dogs come from a line of working/show dogs.  They both have relatives who work and do well in the shows, one of the dogs having sired a recent top breed winner.  My own dogs are pets first and show dogs second, but I have no doubt that they would work given half a chance.

ETA  - you're right about the AB scheme, I wouldn't join after all I've read about how it's already being abused.

Pam

The first good breeder I approached for a puppy in my breed told me (worse as I live in Scotland)

This is what I was questioning ! :-p I thought you meant you found it difficult getting a good breeder because of living in Scotland ! :-p

> Dont you think you was incredibly lucky? i could possibly go into another breed predominantly low in entries knowing as i do now and produce a champ

LOL, Mygirl I'm not sure if this comment if offensive, funny or just not worded very well? Do you think Dill only has a champion as her breed have less dogs shown than yours? Have you made up a champ in your own breed? Do you really think if you haven't it's just because there are bigger entries?

a quick 5 mins on the net throws up the following details - 16 different bedlingtons won CCs in 2006, crufts entry 2007 was 100 dogs. In great danes 34 different dogs won CCs, crufts entry 2007 234 - amazingly it appears as if you have almost the exact same chance of winning a ticket in both breeds :-)

Apologies for heading off topic, it's a bit of a bug bear of mine when people say it's easier to make up a champ in some breeds :-D

:-)  I guess that as well at the time :-)

> I'm also biting my tongue. There are more reasons for breeding dogs than for 'Just the  show ring'. Dogs that are bred for working or for much loved pets (the most important reason in my view) are far more valuable than 'just for the show ring', providing that all the relevant health tests have been carried out for the breed

True, but at the other end of the argument you could probably hip score & eye test a mongrel and it could come back with having passed those tests but does it look like anything in particular, it has no type,it's conformation will be non-existant as it's been bred for no specific purpose/job.     From my litters the majority have gone to pet homes & I'm very proud of the fact these dogs are well natured much loved pets however, there is a reason for breeding dogs and it's not just to fulfill the pet market, that's what puppy farmers do.   However a dog with good health results isn't always breeding material because it could fail in a lot of areas of conformation, have a bad mouth, bad temperament, show no working ability (If required) etc. 

Dill my girl had won numerous best pup in breeds and has rcc to boot at a tender age for our breed..
My opinion probably doesnt add much weight by saying 30 years plus showing was for people with money because you just cant feed look after and show a terrier on the same wage as a dane lol my food bills take a major proportion of my wage as it stands.. but thats my choice..

Surely most people choose their breed of dog according to their pocket?  It would be insane to keep dogs you couldn't even afford to feed no matter how much you love them.

Thirty years ago I was too young to be doing any of this but 22 years ago I had much more spare money than now - we showed cats at Championship level with the same success I now experience with my dogs, I certainly couldn't afford to do that now - the cost is astronomical!

My dogs are not poor specimens 'because I have little spare money' as your post implied and it is insulting to suggest it.   Oldest one Ch in 12 shows (+2 BOBs, 2 RCCs, placed 11 times) now retired to make way for home-bred, 13 shows, 2 RCCs - One 1st time out and one with RBIS (breed club CH Sh)  marked 3rd at BTOY, and RBIS SWT Open. Placed 1st x 6, the rest also placed.  Considering how few shows we do in a year I'd say that was a good result. 

Just been checking the figures and despite GDs having more entries per show than BTs, class sizes appear to be the same as we have fewer classes per show.  Min class size in BT 5/6 usually and average class size we've had is 11/12, and then there were the 20/21 classes ;) 

Extra food alone isn't the heavy costs in dog owning though.  My boxer eats about twice what my terriers eat.  Everything else is pretty much the same in cost. So it only costs me maybe £15 a month more to feed myg big dog.  However I haev to pay the same entry fee, the same catalogue fee, the same petrol cost to and from the show regardless what size I am showing.   The upside of a big breed to some ( not to me :-) ) is the generally produce larger litters and quite often are more expensive to for the puppy prices so costs for showing larger breeds are not really taking all things into account more that smaller breeds. IMHO :-)

I never implied your dogs where poor specimens dill how pedantic of you.. my dogs dont break the bank but they add to the cost of living of course... (my choice may i add)

I'm happy for you that you get fab results with your dogs i however dont feel the need to brag and itemise my dogs winnings i'm not that superficial i get out of my dogs what i put in.. But would rather see them romping on the beach anyday than at a show.. i get more enjoyment out of them that way they are pets first and foremost not show dogs to tally up their winnings and brag on here..

You're right Blue, small dog, doesn't mean small cost when going to shows - only when feeding and paying vets bills ;)

An upside to my breed is that litters are small and price is average for a pedigree pup - so not a very good prospect for those trying to make money ;)

At the risk of being pedantic,

>Years ago you had to have money to show dogs nowadays any one can do it and the amount of pet dogs going into the ring with what the owners think is a perfect specimin of the breed is uh hum depressing..

>Dont you think you was incredibly lucky? i could possibly go into another breed predominantly low in entries knowing as i do now and produce a champ

I'm sorry my girl, maybe it was someone else who wrote the above?

>however dont feel the need to brag and itemise my dogs winnings i'm not that superficial i get out of my dogs what i put in..

As for BRAGGING, I think you'll find this is the only thread/place I've ever put any info about my dogs' show placings, nor have I any links to sites detailing their shows and placings ;)

Have checked out your site and find that you actually go to more shows than I do ;) 

Believe it or not, despite the coats, my dogs regularly romp on the moors, in the rough and just about anywhere they can get dirty, it's the only way to keep them fit and happy :)  They are most certainly pets - 6 shows a year would mean a pretty boring life if that's all we did. :-)

Lets see my girl won a rcc at wales last year in april shes been rarely shown since as we took in a pup and came out again at lka in dec.... (shes from top winning stock so i know shes worth it but thats immaterial to what shes worth at home)

Yes she came out many times as a pup but we didnt show as much when she went to yearling/junior so overall i think you possibly went to more shows than i, i didnt feel the need..she had gained her stud book number so it wasnt important to us no more..

There are some very small costs I think a little more expensive at vets but not really that much when you look at the bigger picture of cost. In fact apart from wormer , I can't think anything that I have had to pay more for at the vets with my bigger dogs.

The fees, petrol , cars hotels etc  make an extra £15 ish per month extra for food etc  seem like nothing.

Glad to hear your breed average for a puppy price, whatever average nowadays is :-)

I've been to one more show than you have ;) but spread over 6 years and split almost evenly between the 2 dogs :)  1st retired on the 3rd CC, making way to show the new one when old enough.  I didn't bother showing them as pups, just wanted them to be pups  :)  But felt I owed it to the breeder to show a few times as he's put a lot into his line, and the rest is just for fun :)

Apologies for heading off topic, it's a bit of a bug bear of mine when people say it's easier to make up a champ in some breeds 

Just wondered why it is a bug bear :-)) what breed do you show? I can't remember off hand.

Not nit picking on the champion comments or even saying whether I agree or not as I Don't  think it is quite a simple as saying one or the other   one thing you have to agree with is that if you are placed say;

3rd,Res or VHC in a class of say 15-25 as opposed a class of 5 then the wins may be slightly more valuable to people.

I think I would rather personally be third and have beating 15 dogs that 3rd and beating 1 or maybe 2. :-)  Just IMHO :-)

Blue, I think Vets fees depend very much on where you live ;)  My bros Weimaraners definately cost more at the vets than my terriers, but then the cost of veterinary treatment around here is astronomical compared to many areas in the UK (where's that rolling eyes smiley?)  but that's a whole other thread :)

Average price refers to prices quoted on CD recently for pedigree pups :)

Um... if the above was to me Blue, then totally agree, placed in a larger class is always better than 1st of 3 :)  and 1st of 20 is better still.  Luckily the shows we've been at have been well attended and the joke with us is that our girl likes a large class :-D

Dill i'm off to bed i dont feel i need to jusyify anything to you i'm not that sort of person, shows to us are and always will be a greet and meet event placing is just a bonus...

For a fact i know our girls breeder does not go to every show (you barely see them)they dont feel the need but for 30 years plus have been the top winning dane of all time now they are representation of the breed i think that alone justifies my actions.

our breeder doesnt expect the unexpected and is realistic that we cant commit to shows as many can but they are understanding i guess other breeds arent so lucky.. but our breeder has nothing to prove..

As this thread has gone way off topic and has now got petty, I am locking it :)