Exactly what I was trying to advise a person in my village last week about breeding their GSD bitch ( that looked like a GSDX) .They insisted they needed to let her have a litter for the good of her health and even though they didn't have any papers she was definately pedigree as the person who they bought her off said the person who sold the bitch to her had said she was so it must be true ! They also said they wouldn't have any problems in getting homes as she was so sweet that the puppies would be the same and so how could anybody resist them. I mentioned about health testing and they replied she is very healthy and hadn't been ill the few months they had had her.

I had to walk away in the end as my head was getting very sore from the constant head banging against the brick wall.

well i was, but not now after reading the comments posted on here!  i think some people obviously breed for different reasons, remind me not to ask any more questions on this site didn't realise it would start some kind of war!

hiya kabtab, welcome to the forum! can we just confirm from you if you are thinking of breeding from your bitch?if so do you mind if i ask what you reasons for it are? as you'll have picked up on from the rest of the thread (and oh how passionately we all put our views! lol, shows how much everyone cares really) there are concerns that come with breeding a non registered dog. from the info you've given it sounds like the person you bought her from had both the parents...did they explain why they did this mating? you'll often find that people stand their own dogs together simply for cheapness/easyness rather than to try and get really quality pups (this might not be the case here but it happens ALOT). in which case she might not be the best specimin to breed from. why do you think she's a good breeding dog? (i don't believe that they always need to be a champion etc, in fact our girl that we stood was not, the studs owner approached my parents about having a litter with her due to her good lines, good health, general good form etc, she was a good alrounder, but mainly because of her stunning nature, a trait worth breeding)

do take your time thinking about it, its expensive, can be dangerous and is knackering (though can be very rewarding). also, do listen to they others advise, they really know what their about (sometimes get a bit excited though lol)

kim

I dont think it has started a war - its just that most of us are passinate obout our dogs and dont want people to breed for the wrong or uninformed reasons ;-) Remember your little girl could well be the result of an accidental mating and that her parents may not have been "ideal" to be mated together. Without knowing why your bitch was not registered (it may have been so you DONT breed from her), it is difficult to know how to proceed. Without even a pedigree you will never find the ideal mate for her - you could even be risking mating to her to a sibling.

thanks for your response, the reason for the pedigree papers was so i did not breed with a family member, don't worry everyone you have put me off!lol

i am passionate about my dog!

> i am passionate about my dog!

Might I make a suggestion. :)

why not join one of the Lhasa club and attend some events.  You will be like pig in muck surrounded by your favourite breed.

After having watched them for a while and talk  to knowledgeable people you may decide to add a well bred puppy to keep your girl company.  Alternatively the breed Rescue will all to regularly have dogs in for re homing.  You may even find you may like to help and become a foster carer.

In my own breed there are lots of owners who do not show or breed two belong to the breed club (the majority actually) and a fair proportion like to attend club shows to See the dogs, meet their dogs relatives etc.

A list of the breed clubs is at the bottom of the breed standard on the Kennel Club website here: http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/166

If you want to breed in the future, learn as much as you can about your breed: read books about them, visit shows and talk to exhibitors and breeders and then consider getting a new little girl from a good recognised breeder who should be willing to help you and steer you through the whole process.

Snap, Brainless! ;-)

Glad you have reconsidered

lol, they are not waring, people on here just really care about doing the right thing for dogs. we're all just concerned that there might be more puppies brought into this world that end up unhealthy from inherited conditions or end up in shelters (not suggesting you'd do so, but many people simply aren't aware). now obviously there is no guarentee that a well bred pedigree will not end up ill/homeless but it much less likely. if parents are health tested the likelyhood of the common conditions af any breed are reduced, the breeder will have considered homing before breeding etc and will be responsible for the pups should they need to be returned.

if you are considering breeding why not aquire a puppy, fully registered, from a good breeder, maybe look into showing etc and wait it out till you know you can produce really gret quality pups (obviously don;t know your girl though so maybe she's a real stunner but no one here would suggest breeding from an unregistered dog)  

Welcome to the forum Kabtab. :-)
Your girl is obviously a much loved and loving pet.:-D She will not miss having puppies and you will not miss the heartache and hard work that could in the first instance and would in the latter come with a litter.  If you would like a companion for your girl it is actually much easier and much cheaper in the long term to find a good breeder and buy a new puppy. Brainless ( regardless of her name) always gives sensible kindly meant advice and her post gives good sound information.
Please do not be afraid to ask further questions, sometimes our members may seem a little enthusiastic in making their point but it's not usually meant as a personal attack, but is usually in the best interests of the dogs.
Best Wishes

> let her have a litter for the good of her health

???????????

what utter rubbish, how exactly does having a litter improve a bitches health?? i really worry about some people.

Can I make one little point here that I haven't seen so far in this thread (unless I missed it) -what we must remember is that when replying to anyone we are essentially writing to a LOT more people than those that are ACTIVELY taking part. Anybody Googling dog information will invariably come up with CD responses, and so when pointing out to somebody that it is not a good idea to breed from an unregistered bitch, it's not only telling that person (who may or may not know) but also anyone else who may come across the thread, even years later as does happen. So in my view, to NOT have mentioned anything would have given the wrong impression to anyone who happened to surf past at some point when looking for information on whatever it may be. :)

thats a very good point actually. i think other folks point was though that sometimes posts can come across as rather aggressive... i think we all need to consider how they sometimes read as well. thats the problem with forum posting its difficult to show tone (sarcasm, jest etc). debates but not arguments are good!

Astarte, there are a lot of people who (we know wrongly) believe a bitch should have a litter for the good of her health - we have even had posters telling us they were told this by a vet!

I'm glad you have reconsidered. :) Producing a litter of puppies is a huge responsibility, and not one to undertake without a great deal of research - those little lives depend on how much you know about which stud dog is most suitable for your bitch if they're to grow up into healthy individuals. Without knowing the reason why your bitch wasn't registered (and there are too many possibilities to go into here) it's best to err on the side of caution and keep her simply as your very much loved pet.

I dont think anyone has been out of order on here apart from the person who started the whole argument!
Cant remember the name..... 'Spugnik'?  It was obvious the 2 statements were made in the same post.

When I first came on here I had all my own views and was full of confidence and it took a few batterings from this lot to make make me realise alot of what people hear about dogs is hear'say and what I knew was wrong so breeders should give there advice wheter its wanted or not as the dog is the priority and if they are looking out for the welfare of the dog then who can argue that??!!
No one should breed unless they have good enough bloodlines in theyre dogs to better the lines already there.

Example - Having a litter doesnt improve the health of a bitch, hence what I mean about hear'say!

I am glad you have reconsidered Kabtab. :-)

Please don't be put off posting, if you find any posts that aren't helpful then it is your perrogative (sp) to ignore those ;-)

I think that Spugsy was making a valid point that sometimes when several people respond with the same thing and come across that they don't think you know anything (which does sometimes happen ;-) ) then it can actually have a detrimental effect because rather than these people being educated about the right way of breeding they feel attacked and go elsewhere for advice and hence more incorrect breeding (not referring to you Kabtab ;-) )

I do think poor Fillis was attacked with her suggestion about breeding for health perhaps just advising her that this was incorrect would have been a more courteous response?

> we have even had posters telling us they were told this by a vet

that is deeply concerning

"I think that Spugsy was making a valid point that sometimes when several people respond with the same thing and come across that they don't think you know anything (which does sometimes happen  ) then it can actually have a detrimental effect because rather than these people being educated about the right way of breeding they feel attacked and go elsewhere for advice and hence more incorrect breeding (not referring to you Kabtab  )"

I totally agree, but quite often i come home from work and like to settle down for an hours browsing or so and its so depressing when you come across yet another i want to breed my bitch post.. I tend to ignore them but i can understand why some long standing members lose patience every now and again as its a pretty regular question asked by new members.. many people here are very experienced and give their advice/time freely, i tend to liken it to an ask the expert page :-D and even experts have off days! :-)

I toally agree with you mygirl! :-)

I think Spugsy was just trying to keep the peace though :-)

Yeah they were good on them :-) i'm not trying to excuse members here at times but it is frustrating in our breed certainly the market is so saturated with 'pet' bred dogs at the moment top breeders are struggling and not breeding so to read another persons post can be quite tiresome.. I'm dreading to see what comes out in the ring in the next few years..
Years ago you had to have money to show dogs nowadays any one can do it and the amount of pet dogs going into the ring with what the owners think is a perfect specimin of the breed is uh hum depressing..

Oops went off on a tangent!

Years ago you had to have money to show dogs nowadays any one can do it

At the risk of causing yet more dissention in the ranks I find that comment to be quite offensive :)

Did you just word it in an unthinking manner or do you honestly believe that showing shouldn't be open to everyone? Whatever the financial background it is the quality of the dog being shown that matters - and if a "poor" exhibitor has the best dog then good luck to them :) and if it isn't good enough it won't win.

I can now see why some people who only want a dog as a pet don't go to reputable breeders who have proved that their dogs are great examples of the breed by winning in the showring - they probably have got the wrong impression that dogs from a show background are only for the monied few :(

>Years ago you had to have money to show dogs

Actually Champ show entry fees, along with the price of petrol to get to the shows at all, is taking showing back to being a pastime for the wealthy - it's certainly beyond the means of many people nowadays.

Part of the problem of pet-quality dogs being shown is people thinking that 'pedigree' equates to 'quality', and therefore the pup they paid through the nose for is 'obviously going to win because he's got three champions in his (5-generation) pedigree'.

Actually harley i'm talking about 30years past and yes it was a hobby for the wealthy at that time..

Maybe between the wars, but 30 years ago plenty of ordinary folks in dogs :D

Maybe in your breed barbara apologies i do often digress and tend to relate things to my breed.. which hasnt as a general rule been popular..

Harley,

What a strange response, I don't think the poster meant any offence. Showing is very expensive why is it offensive to point that out?    There are thousands of people who would like to show more than the do but can't because of the cost.  

The first good breeder I approached for a puppy in my breed told me (worse as I live in Scotland) to be prepared for a fright. I think she said it " was not a poor person's hobby"..        I think there is an element of truth in what she said.

I am not saying people don't manage but for expensive. I have freinds that certainly couldn't do the travelling I do.    

It costs me £200 approx per champshow ( Never less) for 1 to 2 dogs. ( roughly £80 fuel, £30-£40 Travelodge, £50 entry, £30 for food ) looking at the show calander I think I am doing 16 champshows this year and I will do roughly 12 open shows.    Now that is just a start of the costs.   I will do 30K miles a year so need a new dog car every 3 years and on it goes. 

I see this topic has become of a similar subject as to the thread i posted last week!!! What was my twopence im am interested to know???I think i fought a good fight he he

I have visited other forums recently and its like mirror opposites, there are lots of less knowledgable, BYB, and idiots on there minority being good people. As on here is full of knowledgable people and any less knowledgable get scared off, either with strong opinions or less polite remarks.

Allthough it is a good forum no doubt about it, i have seen a post on another site of a woman who had a 4 and a half year old bitch lab and had had three litters from her and was struggling to get her pregnant again and had missed on 2 previous seasons!!! I simply mentioned to the fact of simple maths and ethics, that if she had missed 2 seasons previous being a standard 6 months each, which makes a year. So in 3 and a half years she had had 3 litters, therefore she either bred her too young or on consecutive seasons. Nobody else on the site apart from brainless seemed to understand what i was getting at, due to a lack of braincells to rub together i dont know. I said that at that age of her and number of litters she has forfilled her maternal duties and should be allowed to be a dog once more, because at the sounds of it shes either been pregnant, looking after her pups, recoverying from pregnancy and then pregnant again. That this is not fair and she isnt a breeding machine, i got my opinions shoved back down my throat and to stop lecturing. Pfft give em a good slap

> Maybe in your breed barbara apologies i do often digress and tend to relate things to my breed.. which hasnt as a general rule been popular..

I would say that applies to my breed too, and originally it was the wealthy upper classes that brought the breed into the UK in the late 19th century, and were not interested in popularising them.

Certainly my mentor has been in the breed since 1953 and my breeder shortly after and neither were of that class, though many of the people long in the breed in their day were.

30 years ago is only the 1970's :D

I have to cut my showing to the bare minimum which I think was 8 champ shows last year, plus our club open show and 3 counties without CC's.  I haven't been to a general Open show for two years, but that is mainly due to lack of transport as well as watching the pennies.

Thank you blue i think i shall state what i will pay out on saturday!

Tax for the van which is specifically bought for 4 great danes as no small van will do!! (can i just add i dont show them all i got given one or it would be pts and the older one is retired) i'm not even including the mot and regular servicing plus recovery which is more as i want to be brought home rather than towed to the nearest garage..with 4 dogs thats a must..

So thats 90 pounds for 6 months i'm not sure husband deals with that.. 70 pounds to the sky blue connextion diesel entry fees 2 x dogs 24 pounds.. even without the tax its a hundred pounds before i set off!!

Then theres the hours put in travelling nigh 4 hrs for us to coventry not for the faint hearted and thats what we class as a local show!! we have scotland next month!!

I see this topic has become of a similar subject as to the thread i posted last week!!! What was my twopence im am interested to know???I think i fought a good fight he he
  not got a clue what you are talking about. :-)

But I would have supported your comments about the Labrador.   The numbers are insane in the breed anyway without someone after 3 litters wanting a 4th..!!!

Oh I am not going there.   With the other expenses. :-)   I dont even want to think about it.   One thing I know is I have 2 reasonably good salaries coming into my home and the dogs spend it :-)

(worse as I live in Scotland)

Why ??

Quote Toolz earlier page

OP often asks a question and depending on whether it's a 'touchy' subject like breeding, stands back and (presumably) watches everyone fight it out. In fact the DDB girl has been the only one recently( that I've noticed) that pitched in her tuppence worth.

I know its unbelieveable, some people just have no morals

what we must remember is that when replying to anyone we are essentially writing to a LOT more people than those that are ACTIVELY taking part. 

HELLO SOMEONE HAS SPOKEN  ;-)

Can't agree more with you MarianneB...  it infurates me that people pointing out very bad ethics or posts the scream backyard breeder are often told off for it.  Some walk on these forums and think nothing about churning litters out over and over again, never seen the inside of a ring and have no clue whatsoever what a good specimen of the breed they are in looks like.

I am having to bite my tougue at one of the changes I noticed on the site tonight that I think is asking for more of the same. SO batton down the hatches..

Errr :-)) Lucy I will let you guess :-D

>Years ago you had to have money to show dogs nowadays any one can do it and the amount of pet dogs going into the ring with what the owners think is a perfect specimin of the breed is uh hum depressing..

I'm definately the 'pauper' in my breed :)  I'd love to go to umpty shows a year, but between school term time, OH work commitments and lack of spare cash we only get to about 6 Champ shows a year.  I still feel it's worth it, I was unbelievably lucky to get my first bitch (as a pet, but would we try showing her a bit? - because she's 'a bit special' ;) ) with all the breeding I could have hoped for, she went to 12 shows, was unplaced at one and BOB in her (our) second.  A CH with 2 BOBs in 3 years!!  Her daughter has had similar success, but not quite a CH (maybe one day LOL ) 

To suggest that the dogs of less affluent people aren't as good because they haven't much disposable income is totally ridiculous. 

Dont you think you was incredibly lucky? i could possibly go into another breed predominantly low in entries knowing as i do now and produce a champ, what i was trying to say transport etc wasnt readlily available and to get to a show meant a substantial commitment years ago, i work in a chicken factory lol do you think i could afford to show years ago!! (class probably enters the equation as i doubt i would have dreamed of showing in those days on that income)

With a breed i am in now with as much as 250 entries per club show lol i wish!

Maybe in your breed barbara apologies i do often digress and tend to relate things to my breed.. which hasnt as a general rule been popular..

Gosh we've been in the show world for 27 years and I can tell you now we didn't have money in those days, but could afford it much easier than nowadays!!  I've hardly been to any shows in the last 5 years due to the petrol prices and the price of entering shows these days. 

mygirl,

It depends on how you look at it.  I was very lucky that the bitch was available at the time I was looking, her breeding is fantastic and the breeder is very knowledgeable, but I knew what I was looking at when I saw her pedigree and when I saw his dogs.  I had waited for about 37 years (most of my life) before I could have my chosen breed and had saved up for several years so that I would be able to buy a well bred health tested pup without even asking the price as by then it didn't matter, I knew I could afford her.  In that time I had also researched the breed thoroughly and had a good idea of what I was looking for, so despite not expecting to have a pup until at least 6 months later I nearly bit the breeders hand off.  I felt the least I could do was to go to a few shows, so we save up and 'go without' we don't smoke, drink or eat out and last year was our first holiday (4 days in a tent) in 15 years - so a very substantial commitment.

With a breed i am in now with as much as 250 entries per club show lol i wish!

If you have a good dog it will do well ;)  My home-bred bitch has gone RCC and Reserve BIS at the club CH show, beating the dog CC, judge was a specialist living abroad.   There were several top breed winners (top dogs and bitches of the year)  champions and many 'top' breeders so no mean feat ;)  This is not a one off ;) - some people have said they dread us turning up LOL  We may not have quite as many entries as your breed but in the main the quality is excellent and we have been placed 1st in classes of 20/21.  

So was it luck or good judgement?  I do know that it is a substantial commitment for us, but it's worth it.

LouiseDDB
I think i fought a good fight he he
Indeed you did Louise, that's why I mentioned you as one of the few who weren't scared off by the replies to the OP. You put your point across and explained your feelings very well. 

What a strange response, I don't think the poster meant any offence. Showing is very expensive why is it offensive to point that out?  

Perhaps then it was the phrasing :) It came across to me that the poster thought showing used to be an elite world only for those with money, and therefore able to purchase the best dogs, and that she thought this was how it should still be Years ago you had to have money to show dogs nowadays any one can do it.

As people have pointed out in subsequent replies showing is an expensive occupation but if people have the time and money to show their dogs then I can see no reason why they shouldn't be able to show their pet dogs.

and the amount of pet dogs going into the ring with what the owners think is a perfect specimin of the breed is uh hum depressing.. This came across to me as though poster was saying that only good quality dogs should be entered for shows. If a pet owner shows their dog and it is not of a suitable standard to be placed in shows then they will soon realise that there is more to a quality dog than it having a good pedigree. By entering shows they will get to see the differences between a dog with a pedigree and a dog which is an outstanding example of it's breed. Hopefully when they look for another dog in the future they will then realise what the differences are between the  two :)

Their entry fees will also swell the coffers :)

Perhaps I misinterpreted the poster's words, in which case I apologise, but I may not be the only one who read it as I did :)

> (worse as I live in Scotland)
>
> Why ??

I can't figure that one out either Lucy?

> Part of the problem of pet-quality dogs being shown is people thinking that 'pedigree' equates to 'quality', and therefore the pup they paid through the nose for is 'obviously going to win because he's got three champions in his (5-generation) pedigree'.

Yep that & health testing.   It seems to be anyone who health tests & gets good results back for their dog equates that as being the green light for breeding and there's many dogs out there with good test results that are very poor specimens of their breed and I deem 'pet quality'.  I'm not decrying health testing as it is important BUT it just seems to be the norm, 'Oh I've just spent £200+ got them hip scored & eye tested and now it's ok to breed', no knowledge of conformation, lines & what problems they carry/don't carry etc. Then any problems that come up with the future generation that have been sold on they want swept undre the carpet and no-one knowing, but yet breed of the sibling they've kept.

What can't you figure out?   what you can't work out that it is more so expensive to show if you live in Scotland.. ?

Living in Scotland I have roughly 4-5 champshows per year that DO NOT require a 5-8 hour drive ( approx 600-1000 mile journey per show ) and an overnight hotel stay.  So that is approx 20 shows OUTSIDE Scotland that I may go to.

I think that means the fact I live in Scotland and not down south it is more expensive for me to show than to a fellow exhibitor living in Stafford..

If I lived within 20 mins of Stafford I would have nearly every dog show on my door step saving me £100 to £120 per show.

My post had comments that a breeder said to me about how expensive showing is and more so living in Scotland.. :-)

Edited to add it also requires 2 days per show.  Being in Scotland sometimes you are no sooner back from one and you have to leave to go to the next one. :-)

Yep that & health testing.   It seems to be anyone who health tests & gets good results back for their dog equates that as being the green light for breeding and there's many dogs out there with good test results that are very poor specimens of their breed and I deem 'pet quality'.  I'm not decrying health testing as it is important BUT it just seems to be the norm, 'Oh I've just spent £200+ got them hip scored & eye tested and now it's ok to breed', no knowledge of conformation, lines & what problems they carry/don't carry etc

Totally agree with you on that one ..

I see it on here as well that people put on their puppy contracts that endosements will be lifted once health testing is done.. what about when the dog turns out a very very poor specimen of the breed.   People give them the green light to go on and breed more poor examples from the poor example.

Blue,

I think that means the fact I live in Scotland and not down south it is more expensive for me to show than to a fellow exhibitor living in Stafford..
If I lived within 20 mins of Stafford I would have nearly every dog show on my door step saving me £100 to £120 per show.

This is a big problem for us in Wales too :(

Most of the Ch shows with CCs for our breed are over 4 hours away so 8 hours driving for us.  I have done one or two with a stop over but usually we have to stay within a certain range.   I did suggest to OH that we move to Nottingham or Staffordshire, but he just laughed. :(

Yep that & health testing.   It seems to be anyone who health tests & gets good results back for their dog equates that as being the green light for breeding and there's many dogs out there with good test results that are very poor specimens of their breed and I deem 'pet quality'.  I'm not decrying health testing as it is important BUT it just seems to be the norm, 'Oh I've just spent £200+ got them hip scored & eye tested and now it's ok to breed', no knowledge of conformation, lines & what problems they carry/don't carry etc


Totally agree.
I think this attitude is a general reflection of what's happening in other areas, many people are just out to make money, whether it's through dog breeding, property, vehicles or whatever and they don't let ignorance about the subject hold them back.   :(

I see it on here as well that people put on their puppy contracts that endosements will be lifted once health testing is done.. what about when the dog turns out a very very poor specimen of the breed.

This is what my contract says:
. This puppy's registration is endorsed not for breeding and not for export. The breeder will arrange for the breeding endorsement to be lifted at a suitable date should the new owner wish to breed, provided that the dog has been hip scored within the breed's normal range, has been eye tested clear, is of sound temperament and general health with no major conformation faults according to the KC breed standard, and that any potential plans for breeding is discussed with the breeder in advance. :)