keronella i must say it sounds like you are doing good work with your breeding, well done!

We had a c-sec due to inertia ( very small litter from previously self whelp bitch) including oxytocin, out of hours 9pm about three years ago, one pup was very slow to get going and they used quite a lot of dopram. The whole cost was just over £400 and have just checked bill we didn't get charged per live pup. I am not sure that I agree with charging for each pup as the vet should include that in the charge of the c-sec. It would put my back up if I were in your friends shoes.

>I am not sure that I agree with charging for each pup as the vet should include that in the charge of the c-sec. It would put my back up if I were in your friends shoes.

I forgot to ask about this today (*slaps own head*) but I daresay the ones which don't list a charge per live pup just put the charge on without listing it, so it's being paid anyway, just not specified. Just a guess though.

My vet definitely doesn't charge per pup, I always ask for the cost before the c-section and that's before he knows how many pups she's having, the cost has been the same for 1 pup or 8 pups.  Either way I wouldn't worry about paying it, it's the life of the pups and mum that's important, not the cost of the vet.

Hi Sharon,  :-)

I think most vets are the same.  I don't think the OP or anyone really was quibbling the cost at all of the vet fees,  just the ( in my opinion) inappropriate use of the wording " live pups", if I had to pay £2K it would be paid.   I prpobably have never even asked what the bill is likely to be , I  just pay it when it is presented hence my mothers £700 bill.

I forgot to ask about this today (*slaps own head*) but I daresay the ones which don't list a charge per live pup just put the charge on without listing it, so it's being paid anyway, just not specified. Just a guess though.


I still disagree with you on this JG :-) I believe  " MOST" vets have a standard price for a section whether it be £250 or £600  which covers no pups or 12.   If you called around most vets they would probably have a standard price right there to give you over the phone.  :-)   You then generally have additionals IE out of hours,  further complications etc.

Hi,
Been missing few days my internet not working.
Mine usually have approx 5. I had in ten years, my first C section last year. I believe in natural birth, but in this case the bitch was in distress. My vet is great and have been using him over 20 years.
The call by me to do the C section was right, a pup was stuck. I went in to help resusitate pups.
We had the vet and two nurses, plus me - good job as she had 8 puppies. You need alot of people depending on how many pups. We were expecting 5. Unfornunatly the one which was stuck later died. .
But my bitch was my priority, she was home very quick, healthy with pups.
The outcome if I had wiated longer could have been disastrace. He charged £350 - worth every penny. :-)

To be honest. I would never quibble cost and I have never to this day asked how much any operation was going to cost me, I am fortunate in that I always have to money to hand to pay for my dogs health and truly as long as my bitch was okay I wouldn't care. However, I also know that my Vet would never fleece me and in fact I have been very pleased as he never seems to charge me as much as I am expecting to pay. However, I would most definitely expect an answer as to why a cesarian would not include the cost of bringing out live puppies. After all I always thought that that was the definition of the word cesarian.

>I always thought that that was the definition of the word cesarian.

No, a Caesarian is simply to remove the unborn foetus from the womb if it can't be born naturally, as with humans. There's never been any guarantee that either mother or offspring survive. It's only thanks to medical advances that survival is assumed, but it should really be regarded as a bonus.

Well all I can say is that my Vets girlfriend (a close friend) was very surprised that there had been an extra charge for the puppies and she certainly would not have been charged at my Vets for that 'service'. Makes me think that this girls Vet was just after money-making whilst they had the opportunity. All it has done is lost him her custom plus the new puppy owners. I will reiterate that this operation was not done out of hours or as an emergency.

Hi Alison,  It may not be quite the definition of the word but I certainly 100% agree with you that it is certainly is the reason or  "purpose"  for having the section.  When we decide too much time as passed we generally elect the section to save puppies lives. 

JG I agree with you on the defination  BUT I think Alison was directed her comments more on the reason you would have one.

I totally disagree with you when you say;

but it should really be regarded as a bonus.  

Pups being alive from a sections should NOT be regarded as a bonus. If a section is done without prolonged delay most good expereinced vets should be able to save most pups. I haven't lost a puppy ever during a section ( I have had 2 in 7 years well my dogs have :-))

Yes occasionally a section is peformed to remove dead baby or fetus from a human but they "main"  reason today for doing it is to get them out quickly and alive.  To avoid anymore delay where there may be problems. Most professionals or expereince breeders would not wait till there was real trouble a head.

Most loses are a stuck puppy etc but if done quickly and properly they generally can save that one also.

I remembered to ask at work yesterday, and the cost for a routine in-hours Caesarian for a bitch of about 20kg would come to slightly less than £500. The number of live puppies bit would be assimilated in the charge for nurses' time.

So let me get this straight :-) 

I interpretate this as they give a stardard price before Ie approx  £500 which has the time for the nurses working on puppies built into it ( Like most practises do)
and they do not give you a final invoice depending on how many live pups? 

They'd be able to give a rough idea of cost (anaesthetic would be about £80, for example) but because the vets charge by their time, if there are complications then the surgery would be more expensive - experience has taught them how long these procedures take so it's unlikely to be quicker than they estimate. The more nurses needed to tend to a larger number of puppies would therefore also increase the bill - this would be charged whether or not the puppies survived (and they don't always). The final invoice would be tallied up at the end of the procedure.

So, technically, if you had, say 12 puppies, the Vet could say he needed 12 nurses!Hmm, makes you think.

He's unlikely to have 12 at his disposal! One nurse could probably deal with cords and airways and circulation and the drying of maybe three puppies - two would be better. Having to tend more than three would be putting the pups at risk at that difficult time.

Precisely, so therefore he should be able to give a pretty accurate quote.

Hi,
One of my bitches had a section, after my constant nagging as she had been in labour for 5days and they refused to admit, she was in labour. It cost £500.00 before 12oclock on the Saturday, and would have cost £800.00 after 12 oclock. Needless to say I was very annoyed and had a very unhappy bitch and a dead litter. I am afraid I do not  beleve most vets love animals as much as we think, it is the money!! I even asked to check the pups, as I would have felt better if there had been a problem with them. But! they were perfect. Just a little to big for her to deliver.
I would never again be lead by a vet, I will be that ******women they will talk about. They wanted me to leave her untill the Monday, if I had she would not now be here. We know our dogs best.
Denese

>Precisely, so therefore he should be able to give a pretty accurate quote.

They're not psychic, so can't predict exactly what will happen during surgery, but a client could be given a reasonable 'guesstimate'.

But the definition of a caesarian is 'An operation in which a womb is cut open to allow a newborn to be born'. Doesn't say anything about 'but depending on how many there are'

>But the definition of a caesarian is 'An operation in which a womb is cut open to allow a newborn to be born'. Doesn't say anything about 'but depending on how many there are'

Nor does it stipulate survival, if it comes down to it. ;) As I said before, that shouldn't be taken for granted but regarded as a bonus. I'm told that many breeders actually expect to lose a puppy or two either at birth or within the first week, even with a natural birth (I'm lucky, I've never lost a puppy from any litter), so to expect all to survive a Caesarian seems odd.

It's probably tactless of a vet to actually itemise live births, but if they didn't the cost would just be hidden within the bill.

It's probably tactless of a vet to actually itemise live births, but if they didn't the cost would just be hidden within the bill.

Hooray JG :-D :-D :-D   That is all I think we were actually saying ;-)

>That is all I think we were actually saying 

I thought the OP was complaining about the 'live puppy' charge at all. So are you saying it would be better to list it as a 'nurse attendance' or something instead and hide it?

As I said before, that shouldn't be taken for granted but regarded as a bonus.   AND so to expect all to survive a Caesarian seems odd.


I dont' think anyone expects all to survive a section and I don't think anyone said that at all :-)   However there is a big difference to possibly losing one or even two than to think it a bonus that ANY survived.

You generally or quite often lose one perhaps two that have been stuck or delayed BUT It is NOT a bonus if they survive. Mortality rate on a whole in the first 11 days is approx 25% across all breeds.   It would be really the extreme to lose them all.  Yes it does happen but the purpose for "most" breeders to get the section as quickly as possible is to get as many out alive as possible.  It is the same with humans, people don't have a section and think it is a bonus if the baby is born alive if that was the case there would only be a few performed.  It is performed so routinely to minimize the mortlity rate. :-)

Bowing out now as it has went completely off topic .. the point I was making was it is inappropriate to use the terminology " llive pups".. when the price is clealy marked up to accomodate this.

Come on JG you have read the posts it is clear where I think it was going. :-)

It may even be a vet thinks it is a way for a breed to save money, instead of a flat rate of £500 he may say £250 plus £25 for every live pup, I still would think the puppy counting inapproriate.

>the point I was making was it is inappropriate to use the terminology " llive pups".. when the price is clealy marked up to accomodate this.

Not a dig but a genuine question - how would you prefer the costs to be itemised (and they have to be, because some items are VAT rateable and others aren't)?

If the cost is made up with live pups!! what if there are none? and the vet was up dated on the bitch for 5 days, and it took very harsh words to get a c section done! What would be a fair price?

JG: how would you prefer the costs to be itemised

Just the same as most good vets do :-) and the same with any good business.. using their head!!!!!!!!!! :-)

JG: and they have to be, because some items are VAT rateable and others aren't)?

BTW they do not have to be itemised individually on an invoice it only has to show total charge and total amount of VAT.
Trust me on this one :-)  Infact look at a reciept from your own practice I bet every single thing is not itemised.

AGAIN it is all the same with any business most people know this  :-D :-) . I say again the veterinary world is no different from any other business. 

Just to prove your comment incorrect about there having to be itemised items on an invoice  How do you apply or declare  item on a receipt that says " live pup"..     VAT free or VAT applicable, now who apportions the VAT on that?    Don't worry I am only kidding.

No disrespect but I have not got a clue of the relevance of the post.

>Infact look at a reciept from your own practice I bet every single thing is not itemised.

Most things are itemised on the general invoice (which is A4 sized!), and everything has to be itemised on the computer, which can be printed off if ever a client requests it. Obviously not all practices have the same system. :-)

Round and round.

So your vet will provide an invoice that breaks down the total cost and full list of every single item for say a spay.   IE the vet charges £150 and that £150 is broken down into an itemised bill showing what is vat applicable and what isn't and every single thing that makes up that £150. if they do it is the only one on the planet. :-)

If your vet charges £30 for a vaccination  it will say £30 vaccination on the receipt it would have  been broken down into every single thing that is VAT or not VAT applicable.

My vets itemise all items, I like the system, lets you know where the costs arise from and I think gives most people a better idea of what costs what.
I would hope a large percentage of pet owners acknowledge the fact that medical help is expensive...we tend to forget how much it would cost us if we had to pay for everything we expect and receive through the NHS.
May be in countries who pay for their health care they have a better understanding of medical costs? I don't know, but I do appreciate the skill of my vet's and the nurses who work there and have not had reason to think they treat me differently to Joe public in respect of charges, ie. just because I breed I must be loaded??? On more than one occasion I have been so very grateful for their help and advice.
Aileen.

It's a requirement that there has to be an itemised record of whatever's used, partly for stock-keeping but also because there are licensed medicines involved which must be accounted for under law. A vet which doesn't have such records available if required will fare very badly if a client decides to sue!

A booster invoice would have consult/booster and list which vax had been given - the batch numbers would be on the computer record but could be printed off for the client if required.  I was amazed to find out how much detail has to be written down for even the simplest thing!

I think it's far better than just a simple lump sum bill when you don't know what you're paying for; you'd be surprised how many clients do ask for a breakdown of the costs! But other computer systems (not all practices use the same one) might work differently.

Of course businesses have to keep a record of everything the local hair dresser will do that also but it won't be an individual list item for item on the customer receipt AND it doesn't HAVE to be on the receipt..   not sure why you keep take it away from my point.

Accounting for things doesn't mean it is individually on the receipt not that it has it.

You didn't answer why a reciept will show £150 for a spay or £300 for section  if it had to be listed?????

Jezz..

We have went from

JG said : (and they have to be, because some items are VAT rateable and others aren't)? that they HAVE to be

TO

JG Said : Most things are itemised on the general invoice     MOST things now.

TO

JG said:  It's a requirement that there has to be an itemised record of whatever's used       TO now there just has to be a record.

I think you are making my point for me :-)   ;-)  So I don't need to now :-)    Starting to get silly now so dropping off this one.

Just as a matter of personal interest, how many assist at their own dogs caesars'?
When one of ours had hers OH and I were there and took the pups straight from the vet and worked on them ourselves, Mum had three normally then 6 by C Sect' and we got them all going, with a little help from the nurse once the bitch was OK. We took towels and hotty bottles and a large box and as we got them going we moved on to the next...rubbing three pups together is great fun!!! Once the vet had finished we got them into the car and home to continue the care. Result nine fit healthy active puppies all survived and thrived!
Do people not assist because they don't like to or because the vets will not let them?
My vet knows I will not be left out of anything with my dogs...when one had a lump removed I was there to watch, always am if a GA is needed. Maybe my vet and I have an extraordinary relationship? If so long may it continue!
Aileen.

Sorry Blue but have to argue that point. My vet gives me a full itemised bill. they no longer have to ask they know it is what I expect. I believe they just give a total to most who are not bothered but they always ask "Do you want an itemised bill?" I know as I have stood waiting my turn and watched them do it and most people just say no thanks!
So JG does not use the only vet who does this for their clients.
Aileen

Ok that was a bit of an exageration that it is the only vet in the country but I was banging my head off my desk at that point :-)

MY point was there is no requirement to break it all down on a receipt AND if they were going to break it ALL down it would be some invoice as all the incidentals would be on it to. Each item that has Vat applied or not Applied doesn't have to be listed just grouped and VAT present.

Not sure it is people that are not bothered who don't ask for a receipt just that is the vet has quoted you £150 for a spay and it is £150 well it generally has spay £150 on the receipt with any other extras and the vat. MOST have a standard price for the standard ops and procedures.  Unexpected or investgated illness you general see a bit more info.

As an example, I've just found the invoice I was given when Clover first took ill - the same sort of invoice that every client gets. It itemises:

Consult/examination - quantity 1 - Price xxxx
Blood sample collection - quantity 1 - price xxxx
Lab profile - quantity 1 - price xxxx
Inject Rimadyl - quantity 1.5ml - price xxxx
Inject Synulox - quantity 1.5ml - price xxxx
Disp Synulox tabs - quantity 8 - price xxxx
Disp Rimadyl tabs - quantity 3 - price xxxx

That's a standard general invoice, Blue. More detail is available to a client if requested.

>is the vet has quoted you £150 for a spay and it is £150 well it generally has spay £150 on the receipt with any other extras and the vat. >MOST have a standard price for the standard ops and procedures.  Unexpected or investgated illness you general see a bit more info.

Remember, if a Quote is given it has to be adhered to, even if things change. That's why most won't give more than an Estimate.

And that proves what.. of course if you take a dog in that is ill they will list what the have done. you are again taking this away down another route.. 

YOU still have not answered my question 3rd time ;-)

Why will a receipt show £150 for a spay or £300 for section  if it had to be listed?????

>of course if you take a dog in that is ill they will list what the have done.

And of course if you take in a bitch for a spay the invoice will list what is done. Piglet's invoice for his surgery (I can't find it offhand but will look later) listed the x-ray plates, and the anaesthetic, and the sutures ... honestly, that's standard.

>Why will a receipt show £150 for a spay or £300 for section  if it had to be listed?????

I don't know. I've never seen an invoice like that.

Remember, if a Quote is given it has to be adhered to, even if things change

Not it doesn't!!! a quote is just that a quote is only for the work they are quoting for.  If they run into other problems they are more than legally entitled to charge for it.   Ie A spay carried out due to a pyometra.    They may give a quote and then a capped price but they are not legally obliged to stick to it unless the work carried out was exactly what the quote covered.

My point is that it is NOT a requirement which you said it was. 

Just because you vet lists the earth doesn't mean a thing. 

JG you have seen time and time again on this very forum when people as how much a procedure is they can come up with a standard price. MOST vets will have the procedures listed on the wall.

>a quote is just that a quote is only for the work they are quoting for.

No, if a quote is done wrongly (usually by omitting something!) that omission has to be written off.

This has well and truly run its course. The system I'm used to itemises things - the system you're used to doesn't. I prefer the transparency, and if vets choose to itemise 'live puppies' that's fine by me. Obviously, with the subject being raised in the first place, it doesn't appeal to everyone! That's the way of the world, I'm afraid, but not worth getting hot under the collar about. :)

In the two I have had expereince of the two seperate vets would not allow non staff member in the operating area.  One was a friends bitch who had been unwell the weeks prior to whelping ans simply had no energy left for labour.

My vet lists all procedures and the cost of each thing as well as any drugs he has prescribed. Following Cooper's most recent visit to the vet we had 13 separate procedures/items used or prescribed that were listed. These included an endoscopy - listed with a price and also the time it took to complete the procedure (10 minutes) and details of the drip that he was on which has been listed as IV setup drip, IV fluid etc  with a price for each component of the complete procedure.

All my bills have been listed like this - but then I always mention that I will be passing the bill on to my insurer with a claim so perhaps that is why it is so comprehensive :)

Here's a copy of my latest bill:

Anaesthesia
  Gaseous anaesthetic
  Anaesthesia
Fluid Therapy
  Intravenous Fluids 1st Bag
Dentistry
  Clean and scale Extractions
Laboratory
  Idexx-Pre anaesthetic <8years
Medication
  injections-second
  injection-first
  Previcox 57mg

Next to every item is the amount and individual price.All of my bills are itemised as above.