Can anyone tell me what age is "best" when breeding and what age would be considered too old?

I would say between two years of age and seven years of age.  My breed, is a small breed, so 7 isnt that old really.

For a larger breed, I know people who start breeding at two and finish with the bitch at 5.

I would look into what your KC says, to see what is ethical in your breed.

Crespin

Thanks :-)

In Response to Angels2

> Can anyone tell me what age is "best" when breeding and what age would be considered too old?

With my breed (medium size 20kg bitches of ideally 19 1/2 inches at the shoulder)the breed club code of ethics gives a minimum age at whelping as two (though in practice most bitches are nearere three when breed from) and it is advised that a first litter is not embarked on after a bitch is five years of age.

theKennel club does not allow registration from bitches who have passed theri 8th birthday except by prior permisson in exceptional circumstances.  No one in my breed would breed from an 8 eyar old bitch and the breed club advise a maximum of 4 litters.

Depends entirely on breed.  The best time for my toy breed is to mate at the second season.  I wouldn't even consider that in most breeds.  Although the KC will register litters from older bitches, I have to be honest and say that I've never had a litter from a bitch past 5 years.  But that's just a personal decision, because I don't want my girls to be breeding machines.  I do accept that many breeds have no problems whelping after 5years.  The replies you receive will depend on the individual owners breed.  Most of my girls have 1 - 2 litters.  I have only once considered a 3rd litter from an exceptional bitch.  I guess we're all going to tell you different!

I would agree, most peopel in my breed may have two or even three litters from a bitch, very rarely four, afn that would be if the previous litters ahd been small, all one sex or whatever.

In Cavaliers neither parent should be under 2 1/2 years of age & preferably over 3, This is for the SM to have shown it's clinical symptoms & any really bad heart condition to have shown up. The older the parent with a clear heart the better.

In BC's is shouldn't be before they are 2 as they cannot have the clinical eye test for PRA before this

In GSD's I would breed from a bitch under 2 1/2

> In GSD's I would breed from a bitch under 2 1/2

Did you mean would or wouldn't?

in my breed past the age of 2 and a half for the first litter is not recommend

Gosh hayley123 that's the prime time for many breeds.  Isn't it weird how breeds are so different, although in Pomeranian's we do usually have them earlier than later for the first litter.

>in my breed past the age of 2 and a half for the first litter is not recommend

I recently had to look up the recommendations for someone with a flat-coated retriever, and the society's Code of Ethics stated that bitches should not be bred from until at least 2½ years old! It just shows how important it is to go by a breed club's advice - there are more years of expertise there than anywhere else! I suppose with your breed, Hayley, around two years of age would be ideal.

> Did you mean would or wouldn't?

Doh senior moment I wouldn't

> in my breed past the age of 2 and a half for the first litter is not recommend

Why ? A friend of mine had her one & only litter from her bitch when she was 3, without problem, in fact she was a brilliant mother from start to finish

My smallish breed approx 3rd season so between the age of 18months and 24 months.

the ideal age to breed a first litter is between eighteen months and two years of age, no border should be bred from at her first season, she will not be fully mature then, it is preferable not to take a first litter much after two and a half yrs of age, as this could invite whelping problems.

> Depends entirely on breed.

It seems to depend on the size of breed and therefore at what age it matures.
Check KC regs not before 12 months and not after 8 years!!! They advise one litter per 12 months -this I wish KC would only register one litter per 12 months, this would cut down puppy farming.

In my main breed only 13" we usually breed at 3rd session about 18 months - but there again if they are going well in the show ring I might wait till four years.

In my other breed 27" they advise after 3 years. this is because they mature very slowly.

I think there are so many different opinions. I agree I think 2 litters is enough.
Can I say it once again:
I WISH THE KC WOULD INFORCE ONLY REGISTERING ONE LITTER PER BITCH PER YEAR. :-)

The KC bowed down to the public in this. Some bitches were having litters a few days before the full year was up and the pups couldn't be registered. If they had waited until the next season the bitch would have been too old :-( Though I wouldn't breed within the 12 month period on purpose accidents can/do happen. My own bitch is in season at the moment. Her pups would be 11 months old if my male managed to 'play' with her and she had another litter. I have no intentions of doing this, but it only takes a moment for the wrong thing to happen. Why should I be penalised for an accident? Ok, I would actually go and get the pregnancy terminated, but what if I didn't know she was pregnant? Children (and partners :-) ) don't always tell the truth, I've had that in the past and had an accidental litter. Thankfully there was 18 months between in that case, but I didn't know the bitch was pregnant until it was too late to do something about it. (7 1/2 weeks+....)

> it is preferable not to take a first litter much after two and a half yrs of age, as this could invite whelping problems.

What whelping complications ? I find it hard to believe that breeding from a bitch in her prime(as she will be either at or coming to at 3)would invite whelping complications. Breeding isn't just physical it is also mental & some bitches are nowhere near mentally mature before they are three

I agree - I have left my bitches til after 3 with no problems and indeed (although entirely incidental) large litters with very easy whelping - litters of 9 whelped in one case less than 3 hours and the other less than 6 hours!

i dont know ive never bred a first litter from a bitch over that age if you want to know why ask brainless why as this was written by someone she knows, whos family have been involved with borders since the 40's along with a few other breeds or maybe you could ask betty judge who strated in borders in 1982 or frank and jean jackson who have had borders since 1964 or how about ronnie irving who is a 3 rd generation border breeder and is married to the owner of possibly the most well known border kennel of all

They advise one litter per 12 months -this I wish KC would only register one litter per 12 months, this would cut down puppy farming.

That IS the rule for any licensed i.e. commercial breeder, just to try to get to the puppy farmers. Only people without a license to breed can have more than one litter per 12 months for each bitch.

I don't understand why anyone would NEED to breed before the age of 2, regardless of breed. Even if the owner wants 3 litters from the bitch they can be had at 2, 4 and 6 so long breaks in between as well.

My mentor in Papillons has adviced me to not mate my bitch until she is OVER 2. She is very successful in the breed, and cares a lot about her dogs -far more so than most other papillon breeders I've come across sadly. She told me she had nothing but problems when breeding bitches sooner, yet most breeders I've spoken to have said to mate at the second season. My bitch was just 14 months old at her second season. I'm perfectly happy to wait until she's 2 or 2 ½.

> The best time for my toy breed is to mate at the second season.  I wouldn't even consider that in most breeds.

wouldn't let my bitch near a dog at that age, but ours is a large, slow maturing breed so your talking (imo) 3 years maybe (depending on the bitch). otally depends what you;ve got though

I did speak to Ann about this and I think the thinking is that a correct Border is narrow through, therefore having a first litter before the bones are too set is wise.

With toy breeds it is similar, but more to do with the relative large size of whelps, especially in the breeds who only have ones and twos..

I was a bit shocked though to see on some websites for a giant breed of the lower age being advised as 18 months.

Regarding number of litters I think that depends a lot on litter size.

I have bred up to 3 litters from my bitches, but none has had more than 18 pups total.

I woudl imagine with a toy breed whelping one or two pups to get a pup to keep might need more than two or three litters.

Okay - but we dont all have borders! 18 months is way too young for my breed. Edited to say this is in reply to Hayley - post came in wrong place.

What about this one then...... my ( toy breed) bitch was mated at 30months and missed , mated next season- missed, mated next season 2 dog pups. What would you have me do - risk mating her 12 months later and her being rather old or .....at her next season?
The other option of course, would be to give up with her if I thought that she was incapable of producing.
I must add that the first dog was unproven and the second mating I never saw ( she was boarded with the dog.)

Sorry, I dont understand what point you are trying to make - is that her first mating should have been earlier?

I think it is when a second litter should be taken, and a reasoning behind mating a bitch for a second litter on a following season.

Ah, yes I see it now. Personally, if she has had a litter I would not mate her on her next season - if in 12 months time she misses again, then so be it, she has no more puppies.

Personally, if she has had a litter I would not mate her on her next season

Well thats NOT what I did. I mated her again for the last time and she produced me two little bitches.I decided that the risk of her advancing age outweighed the risk of mating on consecutive  seasons.
My personal rule of thumb is that I never mate bitches over 5 years because of the increased risk of needing a caesar ( in the breeds that I have experience with.)
She could not be mated any earlier than 30months because of her breed. 

This is why I feel the 12 month rule quite rigthly applies to commercial breders and nto to those hobby breeders whose priorities may be the particular bitch line, not as in the commercial breeder volume.

Hi Marianne,

It really does annoy me too, licensed breeders are supposedly allowed only to register one litter per year from a bitch but the KC again wriggle out of that one too.
This is a true example that happened in 2007, a licensed breeder was breeding back to back with bitches, he had over 30 breeding bitches. The KC were informed by numerous people, 8 weeks later a letter was duly sent back to informants stating that the KC does not police this and you need to contact the local licensing authority (council), if needed the KC would pass all information of dams, pups etc to council. Yet again the KC do nothing and still take the money. They are a law unto themselves.
It does make me so cross, sorry rant over now

I suppose legally they are not there to enforce the law of the land, though I certainly think they should have taken away the breeders registration privileges once it became clear they should be licensed (fifth litter in a 12 months) and thereafter registering back to back litters was against the law.

I wonder why they bother to ask if you have a breeders License on the registration form, if they aren't going to use the information?

Did the Council do anything when they were contacted?

Did anyone let the dog papers know about the situation?

Fine - I can only speak for myself and my breed - my bitches were fine having their second (and final) litters at 5 years old. But then, as I stated it is a breed that would not be having a first litter as early as third season.

This is a example where common sense of good breeders takes over.  I would have done the same Tooolz more than likely. She only had 2 pups, has not been used as a breeding machine.    It is something I know you nor most good breeders would do regularly but there are always exceptional circumstances and I agree this is one.

Hi Blue She only had 2 pups

Yeah ....And it was two dog pups in her first litter one of which I kept.
I could  hardly be accused of over-breeding as I've only sold 1 puppy in the last 3 years and it doesn't look like I will be selling any this year either... these little girlies are lovely.

> This is why I feel the 12 month rule quite rigthly applies to commercial breders and nto to those hobby breeders whose priorities may be the particular bitch line, not as in the commercial breeder volume. <IMG class=qButton title="Quote selected text" height=10 alt="Quote selected text" src="/images/mi_quote.gif" width=20>

Barabara - this is something I do feel about, because it's happened to me.  As stated previously, I want to breed from bitches that whelp easily.  Not having kept pups for show because of whelping problems, I desperately wanted a show pup from my best girl.  She whelped at the end of January 2007, (her first littter), but produced a tiny bitch that I considered unsuitable size for breeding, and the pup was not kept.  Her following season, she was rested, and I mated her to a different dog this time around.  She whelped (very easily), on 16th January 2008, and I am keeping both the dog and bitch that she has produced.  It is not actually a year since she last whelped - about 2 weeks short.  I don't breed 5 litters a year, and feel that I would be unfairly penalised if the 12 month rule applied to me.  Especially when I am trying to improve the breed.

Precisely.

>> it is preferable not to take a first litter much after two and a half yrs of age, as this could invite whelping problems.
> What whelping complications ? I find it hard to believe that breeding from a bitch in her prime(as she will be either at or coming to at 3)would invite whelping complications.

Moonmaiden - If I had a maiden bitch that hadn't whelped at 3 years I would be worried about her pelvis being too set.  So the breed concerned is the deciding factor.  My breed reaches adult size at 6 months, and is emotionally and sexually mature at a year old.  I don't consider a first litter at 18 months is unethical in any way, not with my main breed.

In Response to Brainless
I did speak to Ann about this and I think the thinking is that a correct Border is narrow through, therefore having a first litter before the bones are too set is wise.

thank you :)

From all these replies it proves (to me anyway) that it depends on the breed, so it is very difficult to answer the OP's question without knowing which breed she is referring too. I would guess that no-one who has posted on this thread is breeding for anything other than for the love and betterment of the breed they own, but as all breeds are so different there can be no hard and fast rule that we can all follow.

This is the reason the Kennel Club can only make rules that all would not go outside, i.e. not mate a bitch under one year of age, and no pups over 8 except on application with exceptional reasons. 

They leave the breed clubs to set a code of ethics appropriate to each breed. 

It is at least 15 years since the Kennel club requested breed clubs to do this, preferably a joint one agreed by a breeds breed council when they have more than one breed club..

> If I had a maiden bitch that hadn't whelped at 3 years I would be worried about her pelvis being too set  So the breed concerned is the deciding factor. My breed reaches adult size at 6 months, and is emotionally and sexually mature at a year old.  I don't consider a first litter at 18 months is unethical in any way, not with my main breed.

Pelvis being too set ?  Er isn't the pelvis actually relaxed during pregnancy by the ovarian hormone, Relaxin, during canine pregnancies that is. So how can the pelvis be thought of becoming "set"

>Recently, however, a hormone, known as Relaxin, which is secreted by the placenta of the dog and functions to relax the pelvis before whelping, has been evaluated as specific marker for canine pregnancy. Serum Relaxin is not present in non-pregnant dogs; however, concentrations of Relaxin increase to detectable levels in the pregnant bitch approximately 25 days following breeding and peak at Day 40 to 50.<

Sorry but all bitches produce Relaxin during pregnancy & if your main breed(from the two breeds & one crossbreeds you have bred)doesn't produce enough Relaxin to relax the pelvis the way nature intended perhaps you should look at the breed to find lines that do & not breed from bitches that don't. Or is it that the physical conformation of your main breed needs to be looked at to prevent problems during birth.

To breed from a Cavalier under 3 is sheer madness whilst we wait for a DNA test for SM & MVD to be available

Exactly :-)  

Moonmaiden

Recently, however, a hormone, known as Relaxin, which is secreted by the placenta of the dog and functions to relax the pelvis before whelping, has been evaluated as specific marker for canine pregnancy

Please may I ask where you were quoting from, I can't see this info on this thread.

My Cavalier was under 3 years when she was first mated.

my friend has been advised to breed on her second season around 18 months - 2 years that is a cav

my friend has been advised to breed on her second season around 18 months - 2 years that is a cav

That used to be the advice given for many toy breeds but now that an ugly disease called Syringomyelia has cropped up with dreadful frequency in the breed, it is now recomended that dogs or bitches are not bred from before the age of 2 and a half.  This is to give time for symptoms to occur if the animal is affected. Before that age you have no idea if it was going to occur and  be passed to the offspring.

Try this link it's a fair way down, it's not a very good test for pregnancy, but Relaxin does relax the pelvis

As for breeding from a young Cavalier I know Clare Rushbridge would like to have set the age at 3(currently 2 1/2) for bitches & dogs & also not to register puppies from unscanned dogs & bitches, whilst the Complete Genome of the Cavalier is mapped

> my friend has been advised to breed on her second season around 18 months - 2 years that is a cav

OMG does no one who has a Cavalier bother to research before they breed ??? The Syringomyelia breeding guidelines state 2 1/2 at the youngest & of course all breeding stock to be MRI screened before they are bred from. Who the h*ll is still telling people to breed young bitches ?

> That used to be the advice given for many toy breeds but now that an ugly disease called Syringomyelia has cropped up with dreadful frequency in the breed, it is now recomended that dogs or bitches are not bred from before the age of 2 and a half. This is to give time for symptoms to occur if the animal is affected. Before that age you have no idea if it was going to occur and  be passed to the offspring.

This is only part of the advice, the other part is for all breeding animals to be MRI screened as well

One of my cavaliers has no symptoms but has SM confirmed by MRI scan & he is 6 1/2 years old(his father was PTS with SM before his 3rd birthday)