Hi can someone advise me i have lost my dogs pedigree papers as i recently moved house and they must of got lost in the move.  I have a beautiful 3 year old lhaso apso bitch and was going to breed her does anyone know if i can get duplicates - she was not registered with the kc

If she is not registered then I would contact the breeder you got her from, they may still have a copy of her pedigree, obviously if she was registered then the KC will send a copy of her pedigree at a small charge. x

Have you contacted her breeder? And do you know why she wasn't registered in the first place? To be honest if she wasn't registered then there's not a lot of point in breeding from her because her pups will also be unregisterable and therefore of no benefit (sorry to put it so harshly) to the breed as a whole. And bettering the breed is the only reason for breeding.

Why would you want to breed a dog that isn't even Kennel Club Registered? Have you health tests done relevant for the breed? There is obviously a reason why she wasn't KC registered in the first place, have you thought why or asked why she isn't KC registered with her breeder?
If she was registered with the Mickey Mouse outfit the dog lovers registration I am sure it is easy to get duplicate copies or even make one up yourself,Sorry to sound so negative but lots of puppy farmers claim the dogs are registered but the registration is from DLR which isn't recognised (only the KC is a recognised registration) and is NOT worth the paper it is written on.
Think long and hard as to why you would want to breed your girl and read the post on here about breeding bitches, top 2 of the breeding forum

> she was not registered with the kc

If she was registered by the breeder you could have got replacement document ( KC reistration cert and KC pedigree) from Kennel Club. The breeder is the only one who can register a dog.

If she is not registered with the Kennel Club you can not register any puppies!!!!!!

You should contact her breeder and find out why she wasn't registered. There may be a health reason! Most good breeders register thier puppies and breed to KC standards. Her breeder is the only one in this case who can get rduplicate of her pedigree. I also presume her origanal pedigree was written by the breeder.

Think very carefully before you breed from her!!!!!!!!

Don't think the OP was looking for a lecture on why and why not to breed.  She was simply asking for simple advice on how to get another copy of the papers which she has unfortunately lost.   Don't know why so many people are ready to bite lumps out of people just because they ask for some advice.

For the OP :

I would get in touch with the breeder of your bitch if I was you and ask if they could possibly help you.  Would also ask them though why she wasn't KC registered.  There could be many reasons.

Taking Spugsy's comments into account ;) and just addressing the lost paperwork ...

If your bitch is not registered with the KC, then the pedigree is immaterial anyway. If the pedigree papers were DLRC, then the OP could just think of some random names and make her own up, as that's probably what the lost ones were anyway.

M.

In Response to spugsy

The original poster has had a reply to their query re paperwork, but they mentioned wanting to breed from their bitch.  It was perfectly in order for others to point out that in the circumstances this would be considered unethical by most responsible dog people.

This is the Kennel clubs advice on breeding http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/473 and they are far less strict than they could be.

It is generally accepted that there are more dogs bred than there are good homes available for, and those bred irresponsibly, accidentally or casually and then not homed to really committed owners, with breeders not willing to take lifelong responsibility are more likely to end up swelling the ranks of rescue dogs, many of whom end up being put to sleep each year.

One of the most important things to consider is what impact will your bitch being bred from have on the breed. It may seem allowing her to have just one litter will not have much effect, but multiply this by many such litters and it has a huge impact.

Am completely in agreement with the fact that there are more dogs bred than good homes available, but am completely in disagreement with the lectures which there always seem to be in some of the replies to the OP's.  The OP did not ask for information or advice regarding the breeding of her bitch.  Simply asked for advice about papers and although some tactful advice could be given to the OP, it doesn't mean that heads need to be bitten off...

Am not speaking about the fact that advice is given with regard to breeding but with regard to the way the info is given.  Some new members of this forum must feel like children sometimes who have to expect to "respected" as sometime kindly advised one of them last week.  Think that respect needs to come from both sides and not only one.

The way I read it, the OP linked the lost pedigree and the breeding of her bitch together.

Sure she spoke about the fact that she wanted to breed from her but her question was can anyone help her with telling her how she can get duplicates of the papers and it seems that many people(not everyone) bit her head off because she spoke also about breeding.

With a view to breeding from the bitch.

The overall impression was that she thought she needed the pedigree to breed, so really she needed some advice about breeding!

Think that everyone knows what I'm talking about.  You have all seen the very harsh comments given to potential breeders in the past - even in the last few weeks in this forum.  Some new members have even asked for their threads to be locked because they are almost being "Attacked" in the replies which they receive.  I completely understand them as I read every new post which I see in this forum.  The most people on here aren't school children and I don't think they should be treated in that way either.  This is all that I am referring to.

Not school children but the majority have not done any research and so need some education on the correct ways on going about breeding . I know they don't ask but the only way the will learn is by other experienced and knowledgable reputable breeders giving their advice :-) You will also find alot of people only hear what they want to hear and so hence why perhaps a more direct post is needed :-)

I agree that everyone needs to learn, but there are ways to give information and there are ways to lecture people.

I suppose it depends on what people class as a lecture or an informed reply to make people thinking long and hard about breeding and the implications of not doing it properly :-)

Having recently come across another forum there are plenty of people to tell a would be breeder that it is OK to breed however and from whatever they like (this includes a 4th litter from a bitch who had already had 3 litters by 3 years of age, in a large breed, to allow a Lhasa Male to mate a yorkie bitch and proceed with the pregnancy, to breed crossbreeds deliberately as they a re cute etc), and can we see pretty pictures of the puppies.

Anyone pointing out ethical breeding practises is attacked as the regulars all seem to be back yard breeders, who don't like the obvious comparison with the way things should be done

Their answer is everyones entitled to breed how they please, and that good breeders add to rescue figures just like they do.

And I'm sure you will agree with me that it isn't very nice to be attacked.  So what do the new members of this forum think when they make their first post and are immediately attacked.

You will have noticed that as usual the OP has disappeared into thin air.
Off looking for the advice she wanted to hear.... no doubt.

However think we are completely off track with the original post.  Wanted to say these things for weeks as I think on this forum, we need to be more helpful.  But it seems to me that, as I said before, some people(not everyone) attacks the posters every time.  Unfortunately didn't get round to it as a result of work etc.  Now I quickly took my chance.  No offence to anyone but maybe we should think about this before we post a reply.

Could be the op is at work and can't answer at the moment.  We are all jumping too much to the guns I think !  Maybe we should give the benefit of the doubt a bit more.

I think a problem is that people do persoanlise replies.  Most people adddress the post or the issues raised.

Barbara I think you are right.  I need to be honest - have never seen a "SHARP" reply coming from any of your posts.  Your advice is always put in a nice way from what I have seen for example.  But I'm sure that you have seen exactly what I am talking about and also recently.  I know that this isn't the right place to discuss this matter but probably if we put it into another category no one will read it and there will be no discussion.

LOL my style got me hung out to dry on this other forum, I left it to the sharks in the end.

I think it isn't so much what an individual posts that may seem like an attack it is that lots of people will post with the same view.

Maybe we need to perhaps not post if our point has already been made by someone else,a nd only add another aspect?????  Very hard to sit on your hands when talking about breeding ethics as so many of us will be involved with the results of bad breeding.

In Response to kabtab

Just to point out that nobody is trying to be personal in their posts.  Many pet lovers see no harm in the idea of breeding from their dog or bitch as they are not looking at the big picture.

So don't take the replies personally but the reasoning behind them :D

> You will have noticed that as usual the OP has disappeared into thin air.Off looking for the advice she wanted to hear.... no doubt.

Please be minded that many of us members have: careers,family,friends,dogs,commitments that mean as much as we might like to...we do not have the luxury of being able to remain on this website all day long!!!
          I really cant think why someone who posted at 11am this morning and has not returned by 5pm can be accused of disappearing into thin air??? Crikey moses give us a chance!!!??? Life does tend to get in the way a bit Toolz ;)

I for one tend only to be able to log in in the evenings and so I might well post but then not be able to return to that post until the next day,thats surely perfectly acceptable??

*Head-wall-Bang!!*

Spugsy, I am sure you are reffering to me, I have in no way ATTACKED the OP but have just pointed out the error of her ways. I am sure if you care to look at my previous posts you will find that I have not attacked anyone previously either.
The OP refered to wanting her papers and wanting to breed and also pointing out that the bitch is not kc registered. To promote this behaviour is unethical perhaps lectures are needed to stop backyard breeding certainly not encouraging

Flora no one said that you personally attacked.  If you look at my posts I speak in general.  In my opinion lectures are only good and only work with children.  If you read my posts you will see that what I am saying is let's be more humane !!  I have also been attacked on this forum in the past for a reply which I wrote for one of my friends - who has actually stopped writing here.  Believe me it is not a very nice feeling and it makes you feel like telling everyone where to put their reply.

Any way now I need to disappear into thin air lol.  Off home at last.

Spugsy - sorry, but I see only one lecture being given here.

I know you are speaking in general as a whole but your post came after mine and another one which I believe gave good advice to the op, to see that you were stating about biting people's heads off after the first 2 answers to me implied that you were reffering to me or other poster.  Not worth an argument about it though.
I agree with Barbara that some don't like the answers given esp if lots of people give the same answer.
I have always been careful not to 'attack or berate anyone in my posts' and have always imo been polite in replies. I have had things written in reply back to me in the past that perhaps others would see as a personal attack, but at the end of the day I take peoples opinions & veiws into account. Life really is too short to fall out with people that have differing views to yourself

HG    Life does tend to get in the way a bit Toolz

It sure does .....but my observation ( and that's all it is) is an OP often asks a question and depending on whether it's a 'touchy' subject like breeding, stands back and (presumably) watches everyone fight it out. In fact the DDB girl has been the only one recently( that I've noticed) that pitched in her tuppence worth.
I thing Spugsy has a point here, the OP is probably testing the water and when their toe gets bitten they're off.
Life gets in the way far more for people like the OP I'm sure as she's probably only just come up with idea and probably hasn't put more thought into her dogs future than she would her coffee-table's.

Surely a pedigree is just thedogs family tree, i have HALF of nellies, her breed side, clearly shes not breed reg (though she is activites) though if she had been amazing  at ob& hadnt got stuck in the river which killed her leg which put a end to her ob career, i may have decided to look into  using her with a Ob dog, in which case i would have produced a "pedigree" myself, of her "known" lines a "unknown section" & then the sires section, so a 1/4 of it would have been "unkown"

It is really unknown "what " the OP intended doing,if she was trying to KC reg them or not is it? some people may be interested in the pups Family tree even if they arent KC reg. I know i extensively researched Nellies "known" side, finding out info on the dogs in it & also dogs i know that shared similar lines. I found it very interesting!

Anyhow, my response to the OP would be to contact the breeder, or maybe google any names Affixes you can remeber

I am new on here and take offence at being lumped in with what you say are the majority. You know absolutely nothing about me, what research I have or haven't done, whether I need educating or not. I have been reading posts on here for months before joining and at times am disgusted by the way some members reply to posts treating new member like numptys.

RJS

In Response to rjs

I am afraid it isn't clear which post or opinion your refering to.

Since the new board layout it is best to quote a portion of post or to say who it is in response to. :)

In response to rjs - I do take your point.  And it isn't always newcomers that get it, I can assure you.  I have, in the past, felt that some "old hands" have been unnecessarily spiteful in their responses.  I have had answers that I have found personal and unnecessary, less than helpful shall we say, from people who don't even know me.  I have also known newcomers that disappeared after being upset by less than tactful responses.  I do think there are a lot of people who "lurk" and don't post for that very reason - they don't want their heads to be bitten off.  I don't like being talked down to either, and hate a condescending attitude, but I can tell you that there are also a lot of people who have a great deal of knowledge, and are only too happy to help out in a polite and tactful way.  Although it's not something I have made use of (although never say never), there is an ignore function on here, and, should you wish, you can ensure you never see their posts again.  Anyway, welcome :-)

RJS where have I implicated you as the majority :-) I don't know you and so how could lump you ;-)

The 'majority' are the posters who ask questions where there are obvious gaps in their knowledge :-)

How would I know how experienced you are of you don't post :-)

Perhaps join in a share your experiences :-)

Perhaps a definition of what you meant should have been in the origainal post, how else does anyone know who the majority are? I would think that most dog owners have gaps in their knowledge as no one knows everything about all breeds.

RJS

Agree about all breeds knowledge but breeding and acceptable ethics are common throughout most breeds :-)

No one asked any breed specific questions, no one asked about breeding, the question was about pedigree papers and some people changed this into a lecture on the ethics of breeding.

Not school children but the majority have not done any research and so need some education on the correct ways on going about breeding . I know they don't ask but the only way the will learn is by other experienced and knowledgable reputable breeders giving their advice  You will also find alot of people only hear what they want to hear and so hence why perhaps a more direct post is needed 

Some people on here may have a question that they feel is silly and IMHO the replies that are given to unasked questions (like this thread) put people off asking especiall with the attitide that comes through in the above message unless you clarify just who you are talking about! Surely forums are about asking question, no matter how trivial, and getting helpful, polite answers.

RJS

RJS

Asking silly questions, I am a master at it ! :-D

The OP mentioned she was going to breed in her post  I have a beautiful 3 year old lhaso apso bitch and was going to breed her

The OP also mentioned she is not KC registered she was not registered with the kc

Does this not warrant advise and reasons not to breed her bitch ? If not then the OP will go away totally unaware of the implications of breeding her bitch.

I have had a look through the post again and really nobody is being at all harsh or at all impolite just stating facts really which gets the message through :-)

If you work in rescue and see the results of people breeding from their 'beautiful' bitches then if it stops one person doing it then at least some good is done.

Forums come in all shapes and sizes and some like Brainless has mentioned Having recently come across another forum there are plenty of people to tell a would be breeder that it is OK to breed however and from whatever they like (this includes a 4th litter from a bitch who had already had 3 litters by 3 years of age, in a large breed, to allow a Lhasa Male to mate a yorkie bitch and proceed with the pregnancy, to breed crossbreeds deliberately as they a re cute etc), and can we see pretty pictures of the puppies.Anyone pointing out ethical breeding practises is attacked as the regulars all seem to be back yard breeders, who don't like the obvious comparison with the way things should be done

Their answer is everyones entitled to breed how they please, and that good breeders add to rescue figures just like they do.

I personally think the approach on here is far more educational about how ethical breeding should be :-)

Yes the OP mentioned breeding however everyone assumed that they had done no research and knew nothing about breeding from his/her unregistered bitch.

I'm not just talking about this topic, I've lurked on here for a long time as I have wait a very long time for my pup and there are loads of threads where innocent questions have been asked and replies have been a tad on the harsh side, a reason why I would far rather conact my pup's breeder than post on here for information, and I;m sure I'm not the only one!

RJS

Assumptions yes but based on what the OP wrote assumptions are warranted in my and other posters opinions .The OP has the chance to reply which they have not done but would be interesting to hear what they think :-)

I am glad you have a good breeder and you have a good relationship with them but there are many people who don't unfortunately.

As I said they can go on the fluffy types of forums and get bad advice or come on here and get sound advice about ethical breeding even when sometimes direct questions are not asked :-)

At the end of the day we all love dogs and want to continue to ensure our breeds standards and ethics are continued.

All people are trying to do is to make sure that anybody undertaking breeding does so with ther eyes wide open to all issues and implications of breeding from bad quality, non health tested dogs with questionable temperaments and no real proof of pedigree.

The post certainly appears to be about wanting the papers so they can breed a litter from their bitch.

If they had done research in the proper places (but how to know when there is so much conflicting information) they would know that no ethical person breeds from an unregistered bitch.  Certainly the bitches breeder being unethical if they bred from unregistered stock, would only encourage the same.

Of course there are so many people who do breed irresponsibly maybe the research they did so far did not tell them this was a bad idea, so as well someone told them. 

The dogs and breeds welfare is surely more important than saving someones hurt pride.  If someone is obviously labouring under the wrong ideas about breeding ethics they need to be told this before it is too late. 

So often people think a pedigree equals 'papers' or a once over at the vets equals'health tested' or lay opinions on the dog being beautiful equallling 'breeding quality'.

Hi thanks for everyones replies, sorry i have replied so late but have been at work, obviously when purchasing my lhaso apso it was the first dog i have ever purchased so just thought that pedigree papers were all that were required, i did not purchase her from puppy farm but from a loving family home and that was the main thing i was interested in where both mother and father lived, i have tried to contact the lady i purchased her from but it seems she has moved house also   thanks everyone!

Sorry Fillis but mine wasn't a lecture but some simple suggestions.  I only lecture to my English language students!

In Response to kabtab

Hi glad to See you back.

Sadly it isn't just puppy farmers who breed irresponsibly, a lot of lovely people do not realise the wider implications when taking a casual litter from their pet.

This link will show you what I mean http://www.nopuppymillscanada.ca/back_yard_breeders.htm

The statistics are American but will not be dissimilar here.  It shows that the vast majority of pedigree pups are actually bred by what they call Back Yard Breeders, people with no deep and long term interests in the bred, and more importantly with not enough knowledge to embark on a responsible breeding program.

What the Pet owner breeding a litter doesn't realise that there are thousands of others doing the same,a and that is where the vast majority of rescue dogs come from. 

Hi thanks for everyones replies, sorry i have replied so late but have been at work

Here is the reply from the OP tooolz.  Like I and other people said, there are more things to do in life than writing replies on forums. 

Life gets in the way far more for people like the OP I'm sure as she's probably only just come up with idea and probably hasn't put more thought into her dogs future than she would her coffee-table's.

And comments like this are exactly what I and other people were talking about.

Kabtab - thanks for coming back. Are you thinking of breeding from your bitch?