Someone I know has just paid for a cesarian on her bitch. The cost came to £13 short of £500.00. Now I know we all would pay as much as is needed to ensure the safety and welfare of our dogs but what really annoys me is that the cesarian op itself cost £170.00 which to my way of thinking is cheap, however the 'extras' included £10 for every live puppy born!!. Now I may not be the most intelligent person on this earth but surely that is what a cesarian is all about, to bring (hopefully) life puppies/babies into this world. I have told her to dispute this as surely that is included in the operation (or should be). I just feel that some Vets are ripping people off and believe that if you are breeding then you are making money. They may have some clients who are having copious amounts of litters and are obviously making a business out of it but this lady has not had a litter in 5 years. Hardly after retiring on the backs of her puppy sales is she.

I agree a monkey is a lot to pay for a cesarian, charging for live pups is a discrace, was your friend happy with the way in which her bitch was treated?
I am sure that if the amount is queried the vet will justify the costs with ' if you chose to breed then you should be prepared for this type of operation, it is a risk you take'
I would pay the bill, enjoy the puppies and then find another vet.
Our previous vet made a botch of a routine spaying operation, the problem was dealt with to my satisfaction but I changed vets aftrewards as I had lost all faith with the them.

Seems a reasonable amount. I can't remember how much I paid when my bitch had one 18 years ago but sort of remember it was about the same as the price for a pup. My vet charges just under £600 for one at todays prices :-)

Touch wood I've not needed a C section yet, but as my breed has the possiblity of needing one, I always get an up to date quote just in case.

Currently they charge £500 for up to 8 pups and £800 for any amount over that.

My bitches are from self whelping lines so fingers crossed for no emergancies this time (dont fancy jinxing myself!)

i find that quite a normal thing to do, my friends bitch had a c section and was then spayed and they charged her individually for every thing like the syringe etc

Having not long ago paid for one out of hours the charges were as follows:

Anaesthetic (Lrg dog!)  £105.00
Caesarean                   £277.51
Sutures, ABX etc..       £ 50.00   Including ABX to take home
Nurse charges as
out of hours call          £50.00  (Was 03.00am !!!)

TOTAL  : £482.51 and six live happy healthy pups!

Not too bad I thought all things considered.

My last one last year was £370 at 11pm at night. Thought that was very reasonable. I was suprised.  4 live pups.

But, do you think the 'extras' should include £10 per puppy. Sorry but I thought that that is what a cesarian is all about.
I also know that prices will vary around the country and also this was not out of hours.

I suppose it depends, did your friend revive the pups or did the vets/nurses do it? Our pups are haded to us straight from Mum and we clean them and get them going but if this was left to the vet maybe they could justify the £10 per pup to "Get them going"
Just a thought!

I think it is disgusting to charge per live pup I really do. Makes it sound so unethical in my opinion.     I think quite a number of vets today need a kick up the bottom :-)

The vet nurse would be there during the whole procedure anyway.

I paid just short of £800 in 2006 for a c-section on lg breed bitch that also ended in a spay. She had delivered 4 naturally and then had 8 by c-section. What really got me is when i finally got the pups and mum home I noticed one had part of its bowel coming out and another had a cleft palet so returned to vets with pups who were PTS and then was charged another £70 for that (have moved vets since!!)

Unfortunately some vets do treat it as a business. Our vet is truly fantastic. He doesn't charge much extra for out of hours - says being a vet isnt a 9-5 job so shouldnt expect 9-5 hours. And has been known to take our cat home to give it round the clock attention. Unfortunately vets like him are few and far between. I have no idea c-sec were so expensive!!!

i finally got the pups and mum home I noticed one had part of its bowel coming out and another had a cleft palet if that was my bitch and section I would have reported the practise.  Disgraceful.

>The vet nurse would be there during the whole procedure anyway.

One vet nurse would be there to be in charge of the anaesthetic machine. There would also need to be several others to tend to each pup as the vet doing the actual surgery delivers them. The operating room can get very crowded - and all with people who could otherwise be looking after another animal.

My vet charges just under £500 for a c-section, during normal working hours, no matter how many pups in the litter......out of hours you can add a further £150

Quite agree JG I have to say I think the price I was  charged is about right.
If you cannot be there to revive your own pups then someone has to do it, and the nurse is usually too busy keeping your bitch alive ..monitoring obs etc.. so it may need another nurse, hence the possibility of a £10 per puppy charge.

The vet will deliver the pups very quickly - certainly too quickly for a single nurse to get each one 'going' before the next one arrives, as would happen with a natural birth. You're likely to have at least three nurses working on various pups at any time.

You get my point :-)

One vet nurse would be there to be in charge of the anaesthetic machine. There would also need to be several others to tend to each pup as the vet doing the actual surgery delivers them. The operating room can get very crowded - and all with people who could otherwise be looking after another animal.

One vet nurse would be there to be in charge of the anaesthetic machine.  So she would be there anyway.

There would also need to be several others to tend to each pup as the vet doing the actual surgery delivers them so they would be there anyway. That's my point.

and all with people who could otherwise be looking after another animal.   It doens't take that long to do a section. yes there will be real emergency problem ones but they will be few and far between, I am sure stuck pups and inertia are the top two reasons for a section so they puppies generally will be healthy.

It wouldn't say " live" pup then really would it.  This is just another thing "some" vets are adding to a bill.

My mothers one and only litter had a bill of pennies off £700 if I remember. I complained about the bill and they said " it is a risky operation".. My reply, " well I will bare that in mind that it is more risky here that elsewhere" .

I know JG is now working in a practise but you can't honestly say that some vets are not trying to rob people.

The £700 done during the day, 3 live pups one dead as it was stuck , bitch home in 90 mins MAX. 
The £350 was done 11pm at night after oxi failed,  4 live pups bitch came home 2 hours later.  

Lets see £350 to £700 Hmm that is twice the price. 

I have no problem with the fee at all regardless really what it is but I think these little add ons are terrible and worded terribly to. " live puppy".   Call me old fashioned :-)

My mothers one and only litter had a bill of pennies off £700 if I remember. I complained about the bill and they said " it is a risky operation".. My reply, " well I will bare that in mind that it is more risky here that elsewhere" .

Love it!

As I say, my main concern would always be safety and especially the welfare of the bitch most importantly. I know when I spoke to my friend who is the senior partners girlfriend of the vet I use and told her, she bawked at the price! Needless to say, my friend is not only changing vets but encouraging the owners of the puppies not to use this other vet.

As I say, my main concern would always be safety and especially the welfare of the bitch most importantly. Oh for sure Alison. I would pay the earth when it is required.

One of the things I have noticed myself owning dogs for 20 years is a clear case of £ not equalling quality of work. Like most things in life.

The vet I am with now and really settled with is a really great vet, always listens.    Takes her time over everything.  Even down to the way they scan a bitch potentially in whelp. I have to dropped the bitch off and she is settled before they will do the scan.  This to me costs them money but it is their method of practice.  No something I had experienced before , my old vet was £52 for a 20 min scan appointment.

Recommendation of courses is really worthwhile for a vet.

>There would also need to be several others to tend to each pup as the vet doing the actual surgery delivers them "so they would be there anyway. That's my point".
>I am sure stuck pups and inertia are the top two reasons for a section so they puppies generally will be healthy.

But they won't survive if they're not massaged and rubbed dry, and their airways cleared as sson after delivery as possible.
No, the vet could manage without the extra staff and just deliver the puppies, leaving them to survive or not until he'd finished stitching up the bitch before tending to the pups. But that would be inconceivable, so enough staff are there to try to ensure the safety of each whelp. For most operations there will only be the vet and the anaesthetist - nobody else. £10 per live pup seems cheap to me.

Freds mum
Unfortunately some vets do treat it as a business
How very polite.... I would say they all treat it as a business or else they would be giving their time free and only charging the meds at cost.
I think the point is that there are vets and there are vets.......In the last 20 odd years when students get 4As at a-level there aren't that many choices of career.. believe me!  Medicine - Vet Medicine- Politics- Finance.These careers atract people who do it because they can and not because they neccesarily want to or would be good at it. Gone are the old fashioned vets who had a 'calling' and did it for the love of treating animals. Most of these would not have had the required qualifications to get into med school these days.
I know a Vet and at least one Doctor who freely admit that they would have never got into Med/Vet school, by todays standards, because the competition from whizz kids who have been too tough. Private human/animal medicine is BIG business now so we are perhaps naive to expect them not to be out for a fast profit. Shop around.... and that goes for both human and animal medicine.

But they won't survive if they're not massaged and rubbed dry, and their airways cleared as sson after delivery as possible.
hmm 
I would be suprised in anyone in the thread wasn't aware of this :-) :-)

You seem to be missing m point JG . NOT ALL vets have ridiculous invoices quoting live puppies. If a section is going ahead ALL vets would require the addition people to help because it would be priced up accordingly whether the pups were dead or not ... it is a cheek to add that wording to a invoice whether you agree or not. It is inapproriate in my opinion.   Most vets have a standard charge depending on size of dog and then add if complications. The nurses have been built into the price. 

You seem to have taken that NO nurses are included in the basic price and by a nurse being there £10 for her services is cheap.   It isn't priced like that quite obviously.

You can get a dog neutered for £100  You can't  get a section for £100 plus £10 per pup can you :-D :-D   A section is priced at anywhere from £250 up basic price that is because it has been priced out to consider the extra staff.  

Has the penny dropped ;-)

BTW JG..

If the greedy sods priced it at £100-£150 plus £10 per pup   as you put it

£10 per live pup seems cheap to me.

I would agree :-) BUT They don't

We've nearly always been charged around £500 and that's for a Pomeranian, 7lbs in weight at the most and with either one or two pups!!  Oh and before now we've ended up doing the nurses job of bringing the pups around when they've just been left and told that there's no hope!

Until I started working at a vet's I had very little idea of how complicated pricing systems are. (I still don't know if ours have an add-on for live pups following a caesarian - I'll try to remember to ask tomorrow.) But I very much doubt they're out to rob everyone, as someone harshly said earlier.

>You seem to have taken that NO nurses are included in the basic price and by a nurse being there £10 for her services is cheap.   It isn't priced like that quite obviously.

I'll try to find out tomorrow. :-)

Mabel had a C section and spey in October, cost £687.  My only other C section 2 years previously cost £380 without the speying.  Both were at midnight at the Emergency vet clinic.  On both occassions no live pups were delivered a in each case it was inertia with the final pup in litter, and both were delivered dead.  I did ring and query if the extra £300 was for the speying, or had prices gone up that much in 3 years, but no reply!  On the other hand, we spent the afternoon prior to the C section at the vets for  almost 4 hours ) arrived for C section, she had a shot of Oxy, and delivered pups!) and were charged only £50 which included the oxy shots.  We had taken over a surgery as 3 pups arrived, had the almost undivided attention of a Vet. Nurse  and frequent visits and checks from 2 Vets, so very reasonable!  Sadly, my Vets does not offer out of hours, so by the time Vet Nurse and I decided that the final pup was not coming without help we had no option but to go to the emergency Vet. hospital. 

bye
Gwen

>>I had very little idea of how complicated pricing systems are

Me neither until I started working at a vets!

Remember veterinary practices/hospitals are  a business(with the except of the charities), with the aim being to make money...as well, of course, providing pets with healthcare :) But I do agree that some take the mick and have some kind of gripe with breeders and think they can charge extra because of the ' breeders make loads of money from pups' mentality.

Will ask ours too, we had a CS last week, quite rare during the day as they are usually dealt with by our out of hours team so might be worth asking them too :)

But I very much doubt they're out to rob everyone, as someone harshly said earlier.

  It was I who used the word rob :-)   and I definately didn't say EVERYONE or ALL vets, I clearly said SOME vets.

My vet is very good and offers a suberb service.  Can be anymore grateful for her if I tried and she is very reasonable.  HOWEVER the practice 2 miles along the road are double + for everything.  THAT is robbery. :-)

Sorry JG to keep directing at you :-)  but you are not going to try and tell me or convince me surely that to charge someone £700 for a section and the bitch was in and out in less that 90 mins when a equally good vet in worse circumstances ie very late at night etc is  charge half the price.    OK I know it is hard when you suddenly work for or in an industry to see it unbias but there are a lot of vets robbing people.   Just like so many other businesses.

I had very little idea of how complicated pricing systems are.   I am very expereince is pricing systems and viability pricing in many industries so I don't fall into the " lack of knowledge" or "tinted sun glasses on" group for sure.  Project management/viability planning whether it be vet costs, c- sections, fitting out a shop with payment terminals, supplying a team of engineers for a year or building a house all have a formula , everything in life has amoungst a few others raw material cost, labour cost, over heads.

It doesn't need much investigation or checking to work out that is there is a standard price for a surgeon , including time, anesthetic etc at one price then a price of that plus what ever extras are required to a c-section ie the the extra staff factor taking into it :-)

I say it again, if you re read my first, 2nd and 3rd reply to the OPs question,  It isn't the actual cost I was quibbling at all it was the wording " live puppies"  I think the puppy counting isn't very sympathetic to someone who has lost all but one puppy.  It is a little silly and they should ammend the terminology.   I only started down the price route when the converstation changed more toward pricing and not the OP initial question about the listing of  live pups.

>HOWEVER the practice 2 miles along the road are double + for everything.  THAT is robbery.

Without knowing the different overheads of each practice it's impossible to say if one's overcharging or not.

>It doesn't need much investigation or checking to work out that is there is a standard price for a surgeon , including time, 

If you investigate you'll find that vets have can different charges for their time, even within the same practice.

Last time I had a C section for a bitch was in 2001 was £460 so I think your friend didn't pay so much, as I know it would be a lot more around here now.

> But, do you think the 'extras' should include £10 per puppy. Sorry but I thought that that is what a cesarian is all about.
>

I would say yes as dealing with resuscitating the pups is time consuming, and after all it tends to be the staff and time that they charge for.  I expect most vets just don't itemise it like that, but certainly take it into account.

i had a c section on my bitch in 2006 it cost £1100 she is a giant breed had 5 puppies got there during surgery time was made to wait for patients to go and then while they prepared almost 2 hours before they started by now out of hours she was very large so they expected more puppies than there were so 2 vets stayed .lost one puppy there  felt i was treated badly and the price was a right cheek as i cant remember exactly all figures but a lot of this money was staff wages i know for a fact they charged double wages for vet nurse as out of hours she didnt recieve it though if they had saw to us imediately we would have been in surgery time

I paid pennies under £600 for a c-section April '06 due to a stuck puppy and failed oxytocin jab, TBH, I was just so relieved to have 8 healthy puppies, I didn't care how much it cost :) mine was out of hours on an Easter Saturday afternoon, they were ready and waiting for us after a telephone call and preps on the Theatre were well under way by the time we got there. All in all, my bitch was there for 3 hrs before we were allowed to collect her, this was to ensure she had accepted them fully and the pups were feeding well. There was no itemised per puppy on the invoice!

it's impossible to say if one's overcharging or not.

Not being disrespectful in anyway so don't take this personally we all have skills and qualifications in all different places BUT overheads do not define whether a business is over charging they only define how much profit they make.

A good well run business should have similar overheads as the other companies in the same type business.  The besic tool is benchmarking.

You have to be able to work out a margin. IE £ per square foot, or £ per £1k salary.  It won't vary much in business like for like (It certainly shouldn't) unless they are running them poorly managed and without understanding of the business enviroment or what real management accounting is.    A bigger practice may have more overheads though property but they should have the business plan worked out to accomodate this and be doing more business.

What is happening with some vets is they see a growth in animal ownership and specialist are not growing at the same rate so they are capitalising on it.  "if people will pay it they are taking it".

If you investigate you'll find that vets have can different charges for their time, even within the same practice.

That is life , These same people will be getting paid more.  I earn twice as much as my assistant but they can do most of the jobs I can BUT I have been doing it 10 years longer and have more qualifications in our area.

You don't have to research the veterinarworld to understand it. It is all the same.

The veterinary world is no different from any other business sector. :-)

Hi My bitch had a c-sect in August 07 (5am Sat Morning) Total cost £780 (NW Eng) I was very happy with the care and her 5 pups recieved and I am happy to stay at the same vet. They provide their own out of hours service something thats important to me as if I had gone to the out of hours service the other vets in my area use,(over 1hr away) I'm sure I would have lost one of them.
Angela

Firstly I would say that most people say that my vet practice is expensive.  However, the owner of the practice is the one who makes the profits.  I just have particular faith in the vet who heads the small animal part of probably the largest practice in the county.  I have a toy breed, known for whelping problems, mostly inertia, and I will not use a bitch for breeding again after she has had a difficult whelping.  I just feel particularly strongly about using self whelping bitches.  I don't have the spay until 3 months after the C-section.  Last week I rushed a bitch in late at night, due to inertia.  As they know me, they know I won't go home and leave a dog, so I was told to go in the nurses kitchen and make myself a coffee.  I was called into the operating room as soon as the vet finished, and while my girl was just coming round, she had been put in a heated cabinet, and the pups were on oxygen.  It cost me just over £1,000 and the pups were not itemised seperately, the cost would have been the same if pups were dead.  Last year I had 3 C-sections.  One cost me £904 - late at night again.  The other two cost £648 each, during normal surgery hours. The spay on these girls is an additional cost, even if done at the same time, I just prefer to wait, it's my choice.  I won't even keep a bitch from a bitch that hasn't self whelped, so the girls go for pet, which is noproblem, I always have more people waiting for them, than I actually breed.    The spayed girls stay with me, as much loved pets.  Ain't breeding expensive?????  On an up note, I have recently had a girl self whelp, so keeping the whole litter, great innit!

>Not being disrespectful in anyway so don't take this personally

Don't worry, there's no offence taken! :-D

>A good well run business should have similar overheads as the other companies in the same type business.

As long as those other companies have comparable business rates, staff salaries (ie a receptionist in Skelmersdale or York, say, is unlikely to be on the same pay-scale as one in Kensington!) etc. One vet practice in a town might have two fulltime vets, four nurses and two receptionists while another in the same town might have double the staff and larger premises but not double the clientele - so they'll have to charge more per procedure than the other practice.

>The veterinary world is no different from any other business sector.

Exactly. Until there's a NHS for animals then vetting remains another business, which needs to make a profit and invest if it's to survive.

freds mum where do you live so i can move there and pinch your vet ;)! sounds good to me. i think that when you become a vet (or various other professions for that matter, doctor, nurse, teacher etc) its a vocation, you are doing a job that is supposed to help people and it shouldn't be all about making money.

My typing is getting worse :-) I tell you.   I can spell , I just can't type ;-)

Terrible when I re- read it.

That is why good businessmen make money and others don't.    Businesses should on practice drive their prices down to retain customers and attract others.   People who have very very high charges ( way above the norm)  tend to either be running the business poorly, a bit greedy ( enjoy a lavish life style) or poor businessmen.

There is a happy medium I think. :-)     Think we have killed this one.

I don't have my glasses on and can't see you picture too welll so not sure what breed it is but , I think wht you are doing will be of benefit to the breed in a few years. :-)   I love when people stick to their guns about things.

6 years ago I paid for a cesarian on a sunday afternoon and the bill was £280. Last year I paid for a section at the same vets but this time on a weekday but at 1am, the bill was for £600 however the bill was changed due to me complaining about the vet due to her overdosing the bitch with oxytoxin.
I don't feel that the cost your friend paid is high just part of breeding however I would dispute the charge for each live puppies if it was me.

I had a c-section done on a bitch the beginning of december on a Sunday at 6am with 7 puppies born, 5 live for £360. I had one done last week on a Thursday, 10am with 4 puppies born, 3 live for £440, both at same practice, just different vets.

Astarte im in Devon :-)
We had a great vet for years, old school guy. Our cat used to fight a lot and get absesses (sp) The vet said instead of getting charged for a consultation every time, when we know what it is, just bathe the wound in salt water and if it got no better ring up and explain and he would leave the prescription for antibiotics on the reception. You cant get much more genuine than that can you???
When he retired an awful guy took over the practise who would string everything out to get maximum amount of money out of you. he is now renowned for it in the area. Unfortunately there are still quite a few fools that still visit his practise. I didn't like how he was so increedibly rough with animals, and had no passion at all. I dont even think he liked animals! When our cat was ill he kept him in. My Dad turned up one day and asked to visit the cat. Basically the Nurse said no, Dad kicked off, they eventually let him see our wonderful cat and when my Dad went in he was laying in his own faeces miserable and scared. dad took him away there and then. he died unfortuatnely. All caused because he's got gangrene in his leg. the leg was plastered and the vet never checked the whole time he was in there. We moved after that and luckily found this vet.
As said before we'd all pay whatever the cost if our animal needed, but i refuse to be ripped off. If the cost is necessary then all well and good, but to be charged for things that aren't needed is wrong.

> I don't have my glasses on and can't see you picture too welll so not sure what breed it is but , I think wht you are doing will be of benefit to the breed in a few years. :-)   I love when people stick to their guns about things.

I agree totally this is called breed improvement. 

It is sad that in some breeds C sections have been allowed to become the norm.  I have a similar view on natural mating, in the US some breeds are rarely ever allowed to mate, and in others there are far too many that show unnatural mating behaviour because of the over use of AI.

> Dad went in he was laying in his own faeces miserable and scared. dad took him away there and then. he died unfortuatnely. All caused because he's got gangrene in his leg. the leg was plastered and the vet never checked the whole time he was in there. We moved after that and luckily found this vet

oh my god that is awful! did you report them or something? that is so terrible and sad. your old vet sounds great though...whats the point in using their time and your money, he seems honest and genuine.