This really is a purely hypothetical question, which I am hoping people may know the answer to! Apologies if the subject has been covered before but I am not aware of it.
If for example you had a loyal and protective dog, and one day you happened to be out walking and someone threatened or attacked you, and the dog leapt to your defence causing some injury to the attacker - would the dog be regarded as dangerous and possibly pts? This is just something which puzzles me and I wondered how it would be viewed eg by the law. 

That is a difficult one and I suppose it all depneds on each individual case as if the person attacked had attacked first and then they were attacked by a dog they could be prosecuted and suppose they have a right to prosecute as well :-)

Unfortunately theoretically yes it could!!  Sad but true!

This is one that I wonder about too. I do know of a lady who was attack by a serial rapist, whilst out walking her 3 dobermanns. The attacker hadn't relised that they were with her as they were running in the woods and she was walking the path along the edge of the wood, in a field. What a shock the attacker got, when her large, black, entire Dobe grabbed him from behind! The attacker ran off, but not before the Dobe had a chance to sink his teeth in.
When the question was asked by the police, regarding the suspects description, the ladys husband said,
"Go round the casualties, you'll find him there."
The police found the man who had been bitten to the bone on his thigh, just as the Husband had said they would, in a casualty room.
I don't know how the law goes, but the Dobe dog can no longer be let off lead as he now thinks all men dressed in the same way, maybe the assailant.
My Dobe has top insurance which includes public liability and solicsitors fees and all  know is, if I had been that lady, I would be eternally grateful to that Dobe and would fight hell and high water to keep him safe, just as he did me.

I always wonder about that too.
I am in agreeement with you, Spiritualist in that I would be forever grateful to the dog and would also do everything in my power to keep him/her safe.

I personally think this is one case that as long as the owner was actually being attack ( not bumped into or any other similar accident) then it would be fine.

Staffie this week praised in the dog paper for helping it's owner during an attack attempt in Edinburgh.

I dont know what my boys would do, when I play fight with my OH they jump all over me (not him !!) and when I fell over in the woods the other day they jumped all over me thinking I was having a laugh - the fall blooming well hurt and two 30kg setters on me didnt help !

> My Dobe has top insurance which includes public liability and solicsitors fees and all  know is, if I had been that lady, I would be eternally grateful to that Dobe and would fight hell and high water to keep him safe, just as he did me.

to right. they are protecting you from harm, as dobes were ment to do!

i heard a story once (may be an urban myth but not sure) about someone with bullmastiffs who was nearly broken into...the burglar had put their hand through the letter box to unhook the chain on the door...when the owner got home they found some neatly bitten off fingers next to the door. guy was picked up in casualty. as far as i'm aware nothing doing to the dog, but then that was on private property.

(i wondered if it was a myth cause the bully didn't let them in then keep them there, more like them)

Does anyone have the link to the story about the staffy?

and someone threatened or attacked you, and the dog leapt to your defence causing some injury to the attacker

I think that the way that the law goes is if you were verbally threatend or felt in danger you could command your dog to see off the person, as in using teeth baring, growling, barking, but no contact.

If you were being physically attacked then a dog as a bystander certainly can use reasonable force to help, a bite would be ok, but if a dog were to literally rip someone to pieces that would be viewed in a different way just as we are not allowed to do anything other than defensive actions.

Humans and dogs by our laws of today are not allowed if we get the better of an asailant to inflict our own justice and give them a good seeing too. (Mores the pity) We are only allowed to defend with appropriate force.

What a sad world we live in where people who attack you have "rights" :-(

My brother is a Barrister and several friends policeman, I was told that if someone is on your property or breaks in to your house, they are fair game, your dog can see them off, hopefully in a painful way, and there would be no issues.

Not sure of the rules in public though.

I know my Dobe would certainly be a deterant and protect my family with his life.

My other half regularly takes him out very late at night, and I have absolute peace of mind she is 100% safe. Likewise, when i'm away on business, I know he is looking after both her and my boy - he even sleeps outside my son's door.

When my other half was pregnant and walking him, she was heckled by some young numpties - dog was soon telling them where to go, their car window wound up and off they went!

The most friendly and people orientated dog I have ever owned, but I wouldn't like to be a burglar in my house, we had one in the backgarden once - out he went and the idiot set a new world record for the high jump as he cleared the fence!

Thats a very good point!

There are many dogs whos natural instinct would be to protect their family, it is ludicrus to think that these scumbags (to put it politely!) would have any case if they were to attack you and your dog was to protect you.

Grrrr:-)

im not too sure about commanding your dog to show teeth etc, as, if someone broke into your house and your dog attacked them of their own free will then fair game but if you command your dog to do so you will be the one in trouble, im not too sure of it all though as they make rules so that people cant understand them, ill have to ask my partner when he gets in as hes a trained dog handler

> My other half regularly takes him out very late at night, and I have absolute peace of mind she is 100% safe

i used to walk my dogs in the park near our old house at night, pitch black and very exposed. never got scared as i knew they would look after me. even now living away from home without the dogs i don't like being alone at nights if the flatmate or bf are away, i get so creeped out without the dogs there, bring on the new (dog having) flat!!

to be honest if there is some suggestion of a threat to you i don't think most people would have to command it...most dogs will bark to alert you to 'intruders' (posty, milkman, someone coming home etc...) so i should imagine they would probably do so automatically if they felt there was a threat

> i used to walk my dogs in the park near our old house at night, pitch black and very exposed. never got scared as i knew they would look after me. even now living away from home without the dogs i don't like being alone at nights if the flatmate or bf are away, i get so creeped out without the dogs there, bring on the new (dog having) flat!!

Same here.  Every weekday morning I walk my lot in the pitch black, around unlit fields and I've just started taking them up the town's main park too, to add a bit of time to the walk.  I'm not in the slightest bit scared when I have them with me, and the few people we pass at that time tend to keep their distance!  One bloke even said "best not try anything, she's got 4 guards!"  I know very well all four dogs would protect me.

If I didn't have them I wouldn't leave the house in darkness, except to the car to go to the supermarket - I won't walk to work (which is a 7 minute walk, literally just down the road) or even to the corner shop in the dark.  It's a bit irrational, but I really get creeped out without the dogs there.  I get the proverbial taken out of me at work by one of the lads who always walks and he lives further away than I do!

I take Ebba my 3 yo Rottie running with me through the streets in the dark.
My thought is, they are either stupid or mad to attack a 5' 11" women with a Rottie on a lead thats running!!!!
Lea :)

lol, you do feel silly about it don't you? (i sleep with heavy things next to me when i'm on my own lest i'm broken in to (where is the rolleyeyes!)) but in the world we live in now its not totally unreasonable...scary stuff happens all the time to people.

To be honest, I would quite like a dog which would at least look like it might protect me......mine is very small and pretty but obviously no threat to anybody! It would be just nice to have the confidence to walk her on my own at night (actually where we are I sometimes feel vulnerable in the daytime too)

In Response to Astarte
to be honest if there is some suggestion of a threat to you i don't think most people would have to command it...most dogs will bark to alert you to 'intruders' (posty, milkman, someone coming home etc...) so i should imagine they would probably do so automatically if they felt there was a threat

barking to alert maybe but if that wasnt what you meant, IMO thats a rather naive way of thinking

Spoke to the local police today as I was curious to know what would happen, they said it would depend on how badly injured the other person was and what they had done to cause the dog to attack. The lady I spoke to said she would expect any dog to defend its owner.
Dont know if its the same in all areas.
Mary

The problem with a 'protective' dog is that they dont only protect when being attacked - they 'protect' just for being approached, passed in the street walked near.   I can say this for certain as can several people that have had the audacity to walk near or by me over the last couple of years......

Maxine

I totally agree with all thats been said, and not trying to start an argument here. If my dog genuinely attacks someone trying to protect  me that is all well and good, but how do the police differenciate an irresponsible owner with an aggresive dog to someone geuniune?? The line has to be drawn somewhere and unfortuantely it's one word against another. In the case of a dog attacking a possible attacker, how do the police know he was going to attack you. obviously you would feel threatened and thats why you're dog attacked them but the attacker could say they were merely walking past and the animal is a dangerous dog.
My dog would lick an attacker to death but dont think he'd be much use otherwise :-)
Although i do feel safer knowing he barks when he hears people outside. At 2am when clubbers are getting out of taxi's im not always best pleased :-( but i know if there was someone there who shouldn't be he would alert me first. Also, a potential burglar (unless been watching your house) doenst know if you have a 15 stone great dane or a tiny jack russel - a bark is a bark and any burglar would rather go to a house without a dog than a house with a dog!

Snap - my dogs sound ferocius when they bark.  But that's about all they do (need rolleyes!!).
I'm sure a burgular would prefer to go next door where there are no dogs and so less chance of an alarm being raised, and no chance of being bitten (or licked to death).
I do feel safe though when the OH is working away as they alert me to anything going on outside.

ETA - where I put rolleyes I don't mean I want them to bite incase anyone thought that :-)

Yes, the dog would be regarded as dangerous.  I had an encounter with a flasher 2 years ago which I posted about on here.  My then 2 year old male GSP had the bark on command and I used that as a deterrent but the guy kept approaching.  When he came really close my fear obviously went down the lead and my boy's behaviour  changed dramatically.  Fortunately the guy legged it as I would not have been able to hold the 34kgs of writhing furious angry muscle that was snarling and ready to have a go by then.

When I made a statment to the police and was talking to them generally they made it very clear that if the dog had bitten the flasher I could have been taken to court and the onus would have been on me to prove the good nature of my dog and the control I have over it.

It was then that I started exploring options such as working trials and schutzhund.

This is obviously a complicated topic and I suppose in any such incident would depend on individual circumstances. I imagine that quite a lot of dogs with guarding natures would protect their owners , and if the owner was actually attacked physically then they may fight back? Not that I know anything about guarding breeds because mine would run a mile from anybody threatening!
Unfortunately we also have had a person flashing in our local park which is very intimidating and made me wonder whether having a 'protective' dog puts people off but it is clearly something you have to be careful with. 

I knocked on a neighbours door once and a GSD on a chain came out of the back garden and attacked me giving me three bites and was about to hgo for my head when the owner arrived.  The owner did not have the control to be able to ecen call the dog off! He had to physically drag it off me.  The police told me it was okay because it was defending the property. They said a dog was not under the same 'resonable force' law as us as people because it is a dog.  It put me off dogs fot a while! lol!

So I think if someone were to attack me or seriously threaten me and my dogs defended me they would be doing the right thing. After such an event maybe the dog would be more alert to stranger danger so more dangerous and need a lead and some retraining, but I think I would be more nervous too and so less able to control the dog. I doubt most dogs would do much damage anyway...if anything at all. Sadly you hear of these attacks on dog walkers and the dogs are not really a good enough deterrent... we socialise the dogs so well .

well on the few occasions i have ever felt threatend when out with my dogs i have seen them visibly bristle in anticipation of a defence (e.g. a strange guy got a bit close when at the park late one night, not saying anything would have happened but my dog appeared and stood bristling and clearly on guard till he moved on). i don't believe its naive to think they will protect me automatically, but mine are a guarding breed, its instinctual for them.

Very few dogs will defend their owners to the death, this is another disneyfication myth.

Unless your dog has actually been trained in personal protection or to detain someone one command it is very rare that a dog will go in.

Sound, confident, well trained and socialised dogs do NOT get defensive for no reason and can be taken anywhere with anyone.

It is only windy dogs that are of poor temperament and therefore should not be trained for protection that will pose a risk to a law abiding member of the public or of course those that have not been trained or owned by sensible people.

> Unless your dog has actually been trained in personal protection or to detain someone one command it is very rare that a dog will go in.
>
> Sound, confident, well trained and socialised dogs do NOT get defensive for no reason and can be taken anywhere with anyone

i'm not suggesting he got defensive for no reason, he got defensive (mildly) because he saw a reason for defense. i imagine he sensed me become more uptight and moved to me because of such. i'm not suggesting he started being aggresive in anyway, just to me who knows him he became very focused and i felt protective (e.g., watched the person and did not move from my side till they had gone).

he was not defensive for no reason but was defensive in a mildly threatening situation- if you were out on your own, late at night and a group of youths who were drunk and disorderly approached you you wouldn;t become slightly defensive within yourself? your a braver person than i then...

Dogs pick up on the vibes of their owners, especially if it's a close relationship. If an owner feels under attack the dog will sense it and it sounds perfectly normal for a dog to go on the 'watch' if under threat.  Will the dog go in?  Depends on character, breed, training etc, etc, etc.

I remember years ago, the electrics failed on the car and we couldn't get the front window up.  So we were keeping watch through the window and late that night we saw a figure crouched down behind the car.  Dogs were young, Shebs was about 2 and we had just got Spender. 

Anyhow, OH runs out the door with 2 GSD's in front.  Shebs goes straight for the figure that was getting up from behind the car and Spends legs it round the corner. 

........Two police officers one behind the car and the other round the corner.  Both dogs stood in front and froze, no barking, no growling, just watched and blocked their path.  Anyhow, the police officers froze and one calls out 'call them off, it's the police'. The police were following someone and trying to prevent being seen by hiding behind our car.  It got a few laughs and the story's been told many times over the years. 

Both dogs have not been protection trained, although I believe Spends had a bit of protection training before we got him, a couple of classes I think.  Never underestimate a dog; they are not daft.

I was flashed at once on a dog walk i wouldnt have minded if he had anything to flash but according to google its the act itself :-) our old girl did stand in front of me and bark but with hindsight i think she did as she was fearful not in protectiveness towards myself..

In Response to Spender

That reminds me of my foundation bitch.  the breed are not naturally suspicious tending to treat everyone as friend unless they give them reason to think otherwise.

This girls would run to the door tail wagging assuming all visitors were there solely to admire her.

One evening my daughter shouted from the kitchen that there was a strange man in the garden (it was dark) and my bitch was stood at the closed back door (fully plane glazed) with her hair standing on end, and proceeded to bark and lunge at the door in a very uncharacteristic manner.

I dialled 999, and then got a call back, it had been the Police chasing a car thief who had legged it through people's gardens, as next thing I knew there was a copper with torch in garden, and bitch still going potty.

It was as well I didn't let her out to see the intruder off :D

>our old girl did stand in front of me and bark but with hindsight i think she did as she was fearful not in protectiveness towards myself

If your dog was truly fearful then why not hide behind you and bark. 

If it was one of mine, I would consider them not to be fully confident in the situation and needing back-up so they stand in front of me.   Dogs primarily protect themselves IMO, if their survival is under threat then it's natural for them to protect it and if that's a particular member of another species, who feeds them, gives them shelter, takes them for walks and who is familiar, then so be it.

I firmly believe that dog see us as part of their group, family, pack, whatever people want to call it.  When one's under threat, they are all under threat.  What the dog does though depends on the dog.   

Years ago our Saluki/Greyhound cross, was in the front garden at night and I heard his bark from inside the house. As we were always together, I knew it as an alarm call. I ran outside to see what it was and the dog told me there was someone in the garden across the way.  We then walked across the road together, his collar through my fingers and I stood and peared into the bushes but it was pitch black and I couldn't see a thing. OH stood behind us holding a brick, while I shouted at the bush.
"Come out, come out, I know your in there!"
The dog grumbled low and strong, so I shouted again,
"Come out or I'm sending the dog!"
Then from the bushes a man stood up and started walking towards me apologising and holding up his hands. He babbled on about hiding from the police because he had been and his car was parked outside the pub. Oh yeah, I thought, a fine load of rubbish and told him to back off, as I didn't know if he was armed or not. I then sent him away even though the dog wanted a piece of him and we should of called the police. He walked off as quick as he could move, thankful no doubt that the police hadn't been called.
The neighbours were ever so grateful when they returned from their holiday and DiggerDog was a local hero as it would of been the 3rd time thay had been burgled in 2 years. We had lived there for 3 years and were never burgled? Just goes to show doesn't it.

In Response to Brainless
Exactly the same situation happened to us last year police were chasing someone across
our back gardens, they had a shock when Koda our black dog ran in to the police but he got the praise when neighbours realised it was his barking that had distracted the thief from stealing a mountain bike from the shed. Didn't stop them complaining about the barking when he did the same for another neighbour a couple of months later!!
Angela

I was Walking my male lab one early morning, there was a man stood staring across a quiet road where we were walking, he did make me feel uneasy,  my dog dexter started going nuts at him! perhaps he sensed it down the lead that i was uneasy. But i was surprised he acted like that because he such a placid dog and loves everyone, the man moved swiftly onwards!! i think dogs do sense threatening behaviour, he was looking after his own.

Hayley

I was walking my two dogs down a quiet road recently and a hiker approached me and both my dogs started barking which is very unusual.  The hiker backtracked and asked me from across the road where abouts he was.  As soon as he backtracked they calmed down.  I think he had just got a bit too close to me for their liking.  When my husband is with us this never happens.