hi we have owned bullmastiffs for 10 years now and decided to try breeding our girl is 2 and half years old and mated successfully twice before christmas we took her to the vet on 0n day 29-31 after mating and the vet felt her and said he could feel no pups but it didnt mean she wasnt pregnant and that he wanted to do a scan when she was 6 weeks her back end is swollen and he teats hanging is it normally hard to tell if a bullmastiff is pregnant any advice would help please. and yes she has had all her health tests before the mating process, we are not new to breeding has we have bred lhasa apsos for years with no problems like this. help

>at 6 weeks she cud be ready to whelp anyday

You are joking, aren't you?

>but at 6 weeks she cud be ready to whelp anyday possibly a small litter???

Good grief - how can you say that?  Do you not know anything about canine gestation?  I dont mean to be rude but *Please*, before responding to a post be sure that you have some of the relevant experience required which clearly in this instance you dont!

Sorry dont know what i was thinking??? Im not very well forgive me :(

6 weeks should be fine for a scan, but you should be able to tell yourself at tht stage.

God dont bite my head off, it was an honest mistake. i do have relevant experience owning a similar large breed and having had 3 litters myself. Of course i know about gestation, it was a mistake!!!!!!

You are meant to help the original poster as well remember, seems you are quick to criticise mistakes but not to help, those asking for it

Hi taya2006

I scan at 31 days if that's any general guide.  6 weeks is very late for a first scan (if only to determine whether the bitch is pregnant or not).  The window for palpating for pups would have possibly passed at the stage your vet saw her - I know mine doesn't palpate after approx 24 days (but this could be my own vets view rather than a more generally held one).  I have had two healthy pregnancies with one bitch so my experience is limited to that and there are others far more able to help here than me.

As far as the comment that she could be ready to whelp any time, hopefully since you have already bred before you will be very aware that this is not a viable stage for whelps to survive.

regards, Teri

If she is a broad bitch like some of mine then it can be difficult to palpitate around 28 to 32 days as they often carry the pups up in the rib cage...Although you should be able to tell by the time she is 6 weeks .  why have you not had her scanned earlier

Louise,

I did try and be polite and certainly not intend to "bite your head off" but TBH for a mistake I think you'll agree it was a pretty drastic one and needed to be addressed in case the OP didn't have sufficient knowledge (remember anyone, whether registered with the site or not, can google info on any subject and your post may well have been brought up).

For that reason it is better to have a point clarified asap - it was not intended to be a snide remark to you :)

>You are meant to help the original poster as well remember, seems you are quick to criticise mistakes but not to help, those asking for it

I dont type at super-speed I'm afraid but I think you'll find I have tried to help the OP :)

bully bitches can carry them quite high so not show for quite a while depending on size of litter. though our girl looked like a barrel towards the end of hers (she was carrying 9 and is a medium size bitch though), our old bitch was a big big girl and barely looked pregnant at time of whelp so can really depend. get your scan done to be sure. it;s the chest/muscle lay out and things i think, they hide it pretty well till late in then whooph! spherical!

I know im sorry i dont know what came into my head, but im sure after i read it again myself it would have clicked. Ive had that horrible flu virus that has been in the news, aswell as tonsilitus and an extreme head cold. Im just getting over it now. I have deleted that post so noone gets confused :S. But yes you should have her scanned before 6 weeks, you should be able to tell yourself definately with the size of her by then, puppies will begin to move around in her tummy after that and you will be able to feel them.

Sometimes its difficult to tell yourself if she is getting bigger you see her everyday and dont notice the gradual increase in size, i know with my bitch she was carrying 8 and i didnt think she was big at all, its only now when i look back as pictures she was like a house, little pot bellied pig.

and as above they do hide it very well

she has not been scanned earlier because my vet wanted to see her to palpitate on a certain day,(which he chose) and he wants to see her back at his clinic on the first of feb and by this time she will be 43-45 days he is apparently only at the point of learning how to scan at the moment so it has never been offered to anyone before at his clinic even though he has been a vet for years and years, i really can't wait till next friday !!!!!!!!!!!!

I would go and find a vet that has experience rather than learning on the job :-)

we thought that he was experienced we have been with him for the last 20 years and this is the only problem that we have had, we have spent £500 on a stud fee and don't know whether we are comming or going, we really appreciate any advice that is being given in the posts, beginning to think that we should have stuck to lhasa apsos

well too be quite honest I would be able to tell myself at this stage..I wouldnt need a scan this late ...only if I wanted to have a rough idea of how many pups there were.

Just saying if she was my bitch I would only go to an experienced vet who was fully trained and experienced especially in something like scanning :-)

if she was a lhasa apso i would be saying i could tell too , but this is the first time breeding bullmastiffs, even though she looks like she is to me! i have never seen a pregnant one before

i dont think it is always possible to tell at 6 weeks wether a bitch is in pup or not, some bitches dont drop until the day b4 they are due

Hi Taya2006
I take it this is your girl's first litter? Then you should be able to get a good idea by checking her teats, to wether she's in whelp or not. If they are enlarged, and pinkish in colour, the chance is good she's pregnant. After three consecutive matings that didn't take, I know all about phantom pregnancies and all the symptoms ;-) The only thing you will not get in a bitch that has missed, is the pink colour on and around the teats. Every other sign can be there, in a severe phantom.
My girl is in the beginning of her fourth week, guess if I'm keeping an eye on her undercarrige :-)
Good luck, I hope your girl is pregnant
Karen

> I know mine doesn't palpate after approx 24 days

My vet usually palpates at 24 to 28 days.  After 30 days it becomes unreliable, the book of the bitch says 3 1/2 to 4 weeks I think?

My vet is very good and reliable with palpation and less good with scanning :D.

Has never been wrong with mine for 6 litters with yes and confirmed misses 3 times) with my own and confirmed two friends bitches.

He was most useful when my Kizi had her last litter and the dog had been reluctant to mate her until late, and after one mating on what I thought was day 17.  Her season went on a week longer than normal and at what was supposed to be 28 days he told me no way it wasn't as far advanced as that, maybe 23 days!  The bitch whelped a healthy litter 4 days late, and I let her go that long because of what he had said.  Her previous two litters were 4 days early and 2 days early.

Hi Brainless,

this time around I used a different scanner as we were away at our holiday retreat but was very pleased with the clarity of the scan photo (despite it protecting the hidden status of 5 of the little blighters LOL).  It's actually a much larger practice than my own and has a small animal and large/farm animal practice attached so I think I would happily use that one again were it more convenient at the time needed.  I have the girls registered with them there in case of treatment needed urgently for any reason and (me being a panicker >sigh< ) they're on first name terms already :-D )

I know some prefer to have them palpated, others scanned and others are happy to wait and see - I guess so long as the owners' are happier either to know or wait for Mother Nature to provide the clues then each to their own (providing the bitch of course has no special needs).

I discussed palpating with both previous vets and although both would/will do it my own mentor isn't for that route so I went with her greater experience than mine in that department.

RRFriend: "I take it this is your girl's first litter? Then you should be able to get a good idea by checking her teats, to wether she's in whelp or not. If they are enlarged, and pinkish in colour, the chance is good she's pregnant. After three consecutive matings that didn't take, I know all about phantom pregnancies and all the symptoms  The only thing you will not get in a bitch that has missed, is the pink colour on and around the teats. Every other sign can be there, in a severe phantom"

Just mulling over your comment about the above. My girly is on day 36 and has got pink elogated and wider boobs now but doesn't seen to be getting noticabally bigger tum yet. If it is a phantom, do bitches show the clearish mucosy discharge?

Thanks, Aimi.

is it right that if your bitch has a phantom then they tend to look pregnant too early?

this is my first experience with bullmastiff breeding she is going for her scan on friday morning and i have my fingers crossed she will be 41 days if pregnant, her bottom is larger and her teats are hanging she is also making a bed out of anything she can find the only thing is that she does not look any wider to me.

> we thought that he was experienced we have been with him for the last 20 years and this is the only problem that we have had

you didn't speak to the vet about the mating before it was done?

we were breeding lhasa apso before this and have never used him for whelping before as we had no problems.

hmm, i dunno.if i was arranging a mating i'd have been in touch with the vet long before about it. but to late for that now... what are you going to do if there are problems with the whelp? (if shes pregnant). there a big breed and normally do ok, but its not definate, our girl had real trouble with hers (which is why we'll never stand her again). have you got a whelping box with roll bars? they can be quite clumsy and need to be watched with the pups all the time to start with.

Hi taya,

I do not scan at all, never have and have never seen a reason to, but I do have a small breed. I have to say my vet says no reasons to scan, they either are pregnant or missed and you've got to wait six months.

Working out if pregnant is hard, I normally know first my thier temperament changes within weeks of mating. Then about five to six weeks their bellies are larger and my seven weeks I can see them move. But at six weeks there is often a white discharge. Remember this is for my small breed.

My breed phantom often, with swollen pink nipples, and sometimes swollen bellies and even milk.

My lady had one mating on 16th Dec and is due 17th Feb. Her bellly is very large and she has larger, pinker swollen nipples and also has some discharge. She was 6 weeks last sunday.
Hope all this info helps. Hope you are prepared:-)
Good luck.

yes we have had a whelping box made with adjustable bars and we know that they have to be watched for the first few weeks this is hubby's job he will be sleeping at the side of them he drew the short straw !!!!! as for the rest think i will change vets after the ultrasound on friday if she is having pups.

In Response to Astarte

I have never consulted by Vet about breeding, as that is my area of expertise not his.

I certainly inform him when a bitch goes into labour so that he knows he may be needed if a medical problem arises that is his area of expertise, and of course he will have a note of the due date as I will have seen him at 28 days to confirm pregnancy.

Unless a Vet is a breeder themselves they are very unlikely to know any more on the subject than how to confirm pregnancy, and about doing a C section, most vets have never even seen a normal whelping.  Even if they do breed things can vary so much from bred to breed.

Nor me, Brainless - and the OP said vet is learning to scan, not that he is inexperienced in anything else.

A friend of mine took their bitch in to be scanned throughout the pregnancy for the Vets to be able to gaihn expereince, of ocurse she didn't pay for them usng her bitch to learn from, but foudn it interesting, adn of course it was a bitch who didn't mind in the least.

did not intend to offend, breeding certainly isn't my area of expertise, but those i know who do have always advised discussing it with their vet before hand (much like most people i know with planned pregnacies have discussed with their doctor).

> this is hubby's job he will be sleeping at the side of them he drew the short straw

lol, lucky him... actually puppy sitting is quite fun, we did it in 4 hour shifts for the couple of weeks and they are so sweet... i used to sit in the bow with them when their mum was away and they would snuggle up, so cute and snuffly. worst bit is approx 7 weeks. i was left alone with them all day and i cleaned out their pen, new paper, cleaned the ones that had run through their poo/jumped in the porridge. got in the way of another pups wee so they were all clean and lovely. went away for 2 secs, came back, worse than when i started. sigh... good luck with the scan. let us know how it goes.

> did not intend to offend, breeding certainly isn't my area of expertise, but those i know who do have always advised discussing it with their vet before hand (much like most people i know with planned pregnacies have discussed with their doctor).

Lord no offence taken, but sadly we often see posts and hear of people who have been told that their bitch is fit and healthy so should/can be bred from, when we all know a once over by the GP Vet is not what is meant by 'Health tested'.  Same thing with age to bred, when a bitch has really gone past term etc.

It isn't really like pregnancy in humans where at least a GP doctor only deals with one species, even then most things to do with pregnancy are left to the midwife and specialist Obstetrician.

>Just mulling over your comment about the above. My girly is on day 36 and has got pink elogated and wider boobs now but doesn't seen to be getting noticabally bigger tum yet. If it is a phantom, do bitches show the clearish mucosy discharge?

Thanks, Aimi.<

Hi Aimi, what I wrote about enlarged, bright pink teats, is only a certain sign on a maiden bitch. If your girl has had a litter before, her nipples will already have the pink colour, and be larger than when she was a maiden. So unfortunately not a sure sign unless it's a maiden bitch. The clear discharge you will not get if it's just a phantom. That's the plug that's developed to protect the puppies in the womb, which is sometimes spilling over,for us to see as a clear,stringy discharge.
The mucus plug you will usually not see until the third part of the pregancy, so not a good sign to look for when you are wondering is she or isn't she? Have you considered having her scanned?
My girl is on day 30 now, and is definately in whelp (hurray :-) ) She has widened just behind the ribcage, her slim waistline is nothing but a distant memory ;-) And her nipples shine like little pretty pink lamps :-D
Good luck, Aimi, hope your girl is in whelp!
Karen

Hi Karen,

Many thanks for your reply. She was mated last summer but missed so I guess you can say she is a maiden as in 1st time in whelp!

I really do hope she is pregnant !

The vets we moved from because I was not happy with them have a scanner but have told me they are not skilled using it to confirm pregnancy. The vets whom I am with at the moment are very good but do not have a scanner.

I am very paranoid about exposing my girl to infection at the vets so i have opted not to scan and after reading the book of the bitch I felt it was unwise to palpatate. However I am breaking the "no vets !" rule tomorrow to use the vets scales so I know how much she weighs so I can give the right amount of panacur wormer. No doubt he will like to cast his eye over her and probabally have a little feel.

She has bright pink big nipples, is a  starvin marvin, very clingy and has the discharge so please keep your fingers crossed for me and I will let you know how it progresses. She is now on day 37. due date around 26th Feb - her birthday !!

Aimi x

Hi Aimi,
How exciting! Keeping my fingers crossed for you then :-)
Are you sure about the worming of a pregnant bitch? I make sure my girls are wormed in good time before they are being mated. Then I avoid any medication what so ever, until the pups are born. Then I worm my girl at the same time as the pups are being wormed.
It might be different for you, since we're not in the same country, you might have a different worming regime policy. Maybe you should ask your vet, just to be sure!
Best Wishes,
Karen

After my friends experience today you can't trust everyone who scans either!  She was told 3 weeks ago that her girl wasn't pregnant and today she had her rescanned as her husband and son were sure that she was.  YEP YOU'VE GUESSED IT SHE IS PREGNANT! 

Hi, In response to the worming - I think its pretty much a preference thing with the wormer but I have used panacur 10% (from day 40-2 days post whelping) sucsessfully before when Noe's mum was carrying so I trust the product.

Vets thought she looked pregnant last night but didn't have a feel and she was half a kilo lighter though from her booster weigh in in august and they were a bit baffled about that.

Anyway I am going back in 2 weeks (aprox day 51) to weigh her again. I am also measurung her waist now.

Arrrhh, I was fooled last year when she missed. Hope I am not again - judging by her round pink nipples though things are looking good at the mo.

RRfriend
And her nipples shine like little pretty pink lamps

Love it !!
You're a poet.

> Are you sure about the worming of a pregnant bitch?

I have wormed my pregnant bitches with Panacur (the only licensed medication for use in pregnancy I believe), for five successive generations of bitches with no problems for the Mum or pups.  the only problem I did have was the protocol for puppies (whose dams were wormed in whelp) being ill when done three times in first 8 weeks, so I do them just the twice.

In all this time I have never seen a roundworm, from any of my dogs ever.

By contrast a rescue GSD litter my friend looked after were so worm laden that when they had panacur they pooed and sicked up live worms and were so anaemic that they vet didn't want them having the third days dose, and they were not wormed again until they were better.  Normally with panacur you would not see actual worms as the medication dissolves them or excretes them at the larval stages, so just goes to show how important worming of bitches is, so they have fewer encysted worm larva when they have pups.

As my bitches have been well wormed before and since birth I wonder how the levels of transmission to their offspring compares to those untreated, as the main infection route for pups is the dormant encysted larva in Mums tissues.  If she was well wormed from puppy hood one would expect far less being passed on to pups, especially if wormed in utero too?

Hi everyone took my bullmastiff for her scan today and yipee she is pregnant he found one very large puppy but said he couldn't be sure that there wouldn't be any more than that he has given us his mobile no incase of any problems, thanks to all for your help.

Congratulations - hope everything goes smoothly