Hi

Wondering if anyone can help, i am searching for a stud, ive searched through all usual places on here in stud section, breed clubs allthough there is only one in whole of mainland england now. Been through breeders listing and everything and havent really found much anything i like. I think the quality of the breed has really gone down and good quality is few and far between nowadays. I have found one stud i really like but he is over 10+ hours return trip, and £1000 stud fee which i think is a little pricey and he isnt a spring chicken anymore either, he is a CH and imported. Id preferably like a proven show winner as is my girl and hip scores would be a plus but not 100% necessary Kc registered obviously. I want to keep the pick of the litter bitch for myself so p.o.l isnt really available for me to give away, 2nd bitch is allready reserved and im considering keeping the male p.o.l for my mother. If i cant find anything i like i might just have to grit my teeth and bear it and use him, but once he has died what ever shall i do? Best examples are the dutch bred, i want to breed to improve the breed but quality examples are hard to come by. My girl comes from good show and champion lines and has the best temperament.

Any advice welcome, thanks Louise

Could you not consider AI ?

Suppose so, but then my costs may be greater as i have to buy the sperm and then go to a AI guy or vet which maybe more. Vets that do this arnt common either i know of one in leeds.

If you want the best to fit with your girl's lines then you may well have to pay extra I suppose :-)

If you get her Pet Passported then you could take her abroad to a suitable foreign dog.

Well the alternative, AI or travelling abroad to use a stud will likely cost more.  I think it is quite usual in many breeds for the stud fee to be the price of a puppy, it is in my breed regardless of the dog used.

Has the dog you like been used recently.  If not bearing in mind his age the owner may be willing to have his fertility checked or agree to wait on the outcome for a fee.

10 hour return trip would be local for most of the males in my breed, distance should never be a factor in choice of a stud dog.

My last litter I travelled 6000 mile round trip involving four flights.  I paid the price of a puppy as stud fee, and it was a maiden bitch.  Travelling alone was £1200, then the stud fee, and I could easily have ended up with no litter.  Just had the same bitch mated to a local dog just 3 hours each way by car, and she has missed.

There are a couple of kennel in the UK that have the Top Euro winners living there, Champions and Junior Champions.  I have been involved with DDB's for over 10 years although we no longer breed. There are 100's of wellbred DDB's out there looking for good homes from health tested parents.

I can but you in touch with 3 kennels that have Champions standing at stud to suitable bitch's. One that shows on the continent most weeks and wins.

The stud fee reflects the price charged for puppies which for a good quality puppy would be around £12-1500

The Dog i would like to use has sired a litter recently, the reason i want to use him more than others is because he is Dutch bred, Champion status and highly desirable rare dark mohagany coat. I have thought more about it and i will just have to save up a little beforehand. Travelling abroad is a definate idea for the future, to bring quality and a new healthy bloodlines to widen the gene pool over here.

Before i go ahead with this late 2008, i wanted to get her hipscored but i am worried about the affects of the anesthetic. I have heard of them reacting badly to it and i dont want to lose her to that. Could she just have a mild sedative, i will get my youngster done at the same time.

Thanks Louise

Can I ask why hipscoring isn't that necessary for you when the DDb has one of the worst hipscores 0-96, what if the male you used wasn't hipscored and then later on it was and ended up with a score like 96?  There are a few on here with good hipscores as studs but of course I wouldn't know which type you liked etc.

Well i suppose it is necessary, most quality studs are now anyway. The one im thinking of using is scored.

I have seen some really cracking Bordeaux's in Ireland,but I do think most reputable stud dog owners would insist on hip and elbow scoring,
Wendy

Going away from the subject but regarding the hip scores (which I think would be a wise choice to have done).  I have just had my Rottweiler hip and elbow scored (waiting on results) and he was only sedated for this.  I wasn't keen on him having a general anaesthetic (sp) so travelled further to get it done under sedation.  Just a thought for you...sorry to go slightly off subject!

Lucy

In response to Staff - I had my bitches hips and elbows done last September under sedation and I'm not sure I would have it done again that way.  My vet has previously done my girls with excellent results but I was swayed to go down the sedative route as scores are supposed to be even better.  Unfortunately mine weren't - still half of breed average though.  Just not sure they take the time to get dogs in correct postition etc. 

>I was swayed to go down the sedative route as scores are supposed to be even better.

I've heard that - apparently with a GA the dog is more relaxed and so the result is a truer picture. (I gather someone took x-rays of the same dog under GA and sedation and compared the plates - the sedated plates gave what could be considered a false result. Only a couple of points in it, but better than the GA result.)

It would have be nice to have the opportunity to compare GA and sedation plates - where I took my bitch for the x-ay, it was more like a cattle market and chaos!  If I took another dog there again perhaps I would be more aware of proceedings and make comment.  She did say when she showed me her x-ray that her tail wasn't straight behind, but that it wouldn't make much difference - but did it?

No, the guy I use in Cheshire sedates them right down and is excellent at positioning them as he is doing x-rays all the time. He also takes a plate and then checks them first  to make sure that the plates are okay before bringing the dog back round. I also like the fact that I am with my dog all the time other than when the X-ray is actually being taken, so in effect you are only away from your dog for about 30 second or so.

I've heard that - apparently with a GA the dog is more relaxed and so the result is a truer picture. (I gather someone took x-rays of the same dog under GA and sedation and compared the plates - the sedated plates gave what could be considered a false result. Only a couple of points in it, but better than the GA result.)

Not sure if this isn't just an old wives tale as I've heard the exact opposite -GA being worse as then the dog relaxes TOO much and so the hips aren't held naturally and appear too loose and not close fitting into the sockets. :) I know when a few people in my breed compared methods and results due to the same discussion, dogs with 0/0 could be found that had been done both under GA and sedation.

Interesting!  Our dogs were given a sedative and were just a bit drowsy and dragging their feet - nothing to 'rouse' them afterwards was given - just slept it off on the way home!  Plates were looked at before letting us go home, I took 3 dogs - she said my bitch and my daughters dog were going to be excellent, and my friends bitch would be more to near the breed average - 19.  Scores came back as 3:7 mine, daughters 3:4, and friends 6:7 - so not a lot between them really.  I think that they try and do too many days in a day where I went - possibly up to 100!  We were with our dogs all the time - we wore protective aprons and held the head end whilst they were postioned by radiographer other end.

There's an interesting paper here about how the different chemical sedatives can affect the score in hips but not in elbows.

Interesting -and two of the vets involved I've met. :) Big question though, not being up on the different types -what actually WAS the finding? Sedation or GA had higher incidence of HD?

My X ray vet uses a GA & a sling to put the dog in & this gives a more natural position for the dog(according to the vet that is)I go with my dog, he/she is given a pre med & then put under, positioned, X rayed, the X rays developed & checked & then if the quality of the plates is good enough(in my very experienced vets opinion)the dog is brought round & we go home, after my vet has given me a very accurate guessimate(she is rarely more than one out & is usually spot on). All usually done in less than an hour

I would have thought hip scoring y bitch was essential. I am a little surprised one of the reasons for using this dog is that he is a speciafic colour, I would have thought in DDB there are more improtant first considerations, like hindquarters, toplines and fronts. I would have thought there would be more than 1 suitable dog in the whole of the UK, but whatever the distance surely its worth it, especially as you seem to want to breed on from this litter.

I am scoring my bitch, the dog in question i want to use is a champion therefore has the aformentioned good qualities, his colour is the deciding factor. This forum is for advice and help not to criticise ones decisions. There is more than one suitable dog, in fact there are many, but for my desired breeding programme coat colour is important, needless to mention hip scoring and health of the stud, my bitch etc. Why would you be surprised, if it was your breed and a certain male had a very desirable trait i am sure many people would want to use them for stud. Distance is not much of a problem i just wanted to ask if anyone new of a good dog that i havent allready viewed.

Does the person of the first male that you used with her not know of any good lines to go with her with good health tests etc.?

The first dog i used with Ruby, the owners refused to give her me back if i didnt sign a contract to agree to give them a puppy, this was the agreement anyway, but they were bad people who i will never use or speak to again. They did everything they possibly could do to con me and are only in the breed for money, i endorsed the puppies pedigree and i feel terrible about having to give them a puppy. They were not bad to their animals, but were not good people.

Does this dog perhaps have a younger son nearer that has lines you like. I was not critisising your choice although to assume the dog has a great backend and topline because he is a champion in a European country is if I may say a little rash. The DDB can be any shade of fawn, none is more desired than another, although that does not stop having anyone a personal preference as long as that doesnt affect how they judge.

Hi he does have a son near by but i have seen him and he is a little too far undershot, which i have put down to this particular dogs dam who is similar. I have seen photos and a video of him (stud i want to use), which is all i can say and he looks to be well put together good clean limbs in proportion and a solid back end and movement, typical head etc. He is the dog on the breed DDB dvd. He has won many shows, and has proven himself as a good sire as many of his progeny have become show winners and champions themselves. He doesnt have many sons over her as he is an import, a few of the ones he does have are with him at the kennels where he resides, and i suppose when i do take my bitch down i can have a look at all thier studs and she which one is best for my girl. My personal preference would be the darker shades of red and fawn to mahogany, i think the really blonde dogs are undesirable, but that is my opinion. Saying that i know of non of these dogs to have been placed at shows here or abroad.

What about temperament? Rather more important than his colour surely yet no mention of this essential requirement. Not as if this big powerfull breed hasn't got it's problems.

Im sure its needless to say that all these things temperament, health etc is more important than colour. My bitch has the best temperament you could wish for and i am sure that he will have a good temperament or would not have been used out to stud time and time again and stay with such a reputable breeder. Any breed has its problems, but in the right hands this is reduced. Im sure your just going to carry on picking at what i say but i am being responsible and if i did take my Ruby to see him and he flew for her and was aggressive no doubt i would walk away, but i dont think it will. Health and temperament is my main concern, nothing else more.

I have found one stud i really like but he is over 10+ hours return trip
take my Ruby to see him and he flew for her and was aggressive no doubt i would walk away

I would have sorted this out before I was actually introducing the bitch to the dog.

Admin please can you lock the topic- i was asking if anyone knew of any other dogs, not to be criticised on my breeding programme. Im not going to explain my reasons, and do not appreciate being patronised. He isnt just the dog round the corner, i have spent alot of hours researching his line and the progeny he has produced, his show wins etc, and im sure he will be perfect, being as he is such a cracking example of the breed. It is a 15 hour trip to visit him with my girl, and im sorry as many others will travel this and more for the perfect stud, but i just dont have the time to do this and it is my decision at the end of the day. taking my girl to visit him more than once would be stressful in the car. His owners were some of the first people to bring the breed into this country and have their name based on their reputation of the quality of their stock. Im sure he will be exactly the same and uphold their name, and be everything im looking for and more.

LouiseDDB have you bred your bitch before or am I misreading things?  If so, WHY wasn't she hipscored before you decided to embark on a breeding programme?

She has bred from her before and reading her website I think the bitch has been scored as I almost said this the other day.  I could be wrong but I think she has been???

Sick of the criticism. those of you that are, do you know everything???? Be with your dogs instead of on here 24/7 im sure they would appreciate the time. Picking on peoples post word for word like VULTURES you are. Get a life, why pick on people that are trying???? Why dont you save it for the people that cross breed? In it only for the money, dont care about welfare of thier animals at all, pups or mother anything for a £ sign. People who dont spend money on vets bills when thier dogs get sick, who wouldnt bat an eyelid for a pup that was struggling, wouldnt hand rear a litter or cry if one died, or be absolutely devestated losing the whole litter. People that keep their dogs and puppies in sheds, not like me when i stayed up for 3 weeks beside the whelping box possibly getting an hour a nights sleep if that. So dont criticise me, you people dont know anything about me at all, so keep your unhelpful unkind comments to yourself!!!That goes for anyone else, this site is meant to educate. PM me with any similar critics comments and you will get an awfully rude reply, so dont waste my time. I have my dogs to walk, and a LIFE to be living.

Hi Louise,

with all due respect I think you need to chill out and not take things on the basis that you are being singled out and/or unduly criticised :)

FWIW, and it is only my opinion, I think your opening post on this thread perhaps raised a few eyebrows and if you read it back I think you will see that from a breeder's stance you had not perhaps fully dedicated your search to cover what others among us perceive to be the highest priorities - or at the very least, do not appear to have put those priorities in what could be broadly seen as the ideal order of importance.

With any breed health and character/temperament are paramount in addition to which few dedicated followers of a breed would consider distance to be an issue when selecting a stud :)  Had these matters been addressed fully by yourself and your bitch's health status/test results accurately put down, perhaps you may have had less questions.

I've just visited your website and see that you have indeed put some very useful info on there for those already enthusiastic and familiar about the Dogue and also those at the testing the water stage and hopefully you will continue your love and enjoyment of this breed and to help others better appreciate them whether they go on to own them or not :)

Respectfully I would add that it is not uncommon for newer posters to find some of the replies on forum to be critical or too questioning - however over time I think you will begin to realise that such a response is not intended to be patronising, difficult or in any way unfriendly.  We are each and everyone dedicated dog lovers and our priorities always lie with the best interests of the dogs whether relating to breeding, behaviour, feeding etc or the many other topics in between.  Sometimes this can mean that the OPs feelings are hurt or their posts too readily "nit-picked" but IME it is very rare for that to be the intention and more often than not with longer involvement with the board and a fast track in internet maturity new members soon become every bit as addicted as some of the "old timers" (that's them - not ME, I'm just a fairly *regular contributor" lol! )

kind regards, Teri  :) 

I'm sorry, on the website I have just been looking at the OP states that :-

"She had her first litter in Sept 07 and was a very good mother, she is an ideal foundation bitch and produces excellent quality puppies. In the future we shall be keeping some of her puppies with an excellent stud, for future showing and breeding programmes."
"RUBY WILL BE HIPSCORED SOON"

Why wasn't she scored before she had a litter? Why?

I'm just sitting here rather gobsmacked that someone has gone to the trouble of setting up a website, putting up lots of breed information, seems to be on the surface quite educated about the breed and didn't hipscore their bitch before she had a litter and is now searching for a stud dog for the same bitch without getting her  scored yet again, anyone worth their salt as a dedicated breeder would have gone to the trouble of sorting all this out before even thinking about having a litter and before searching for a suitable stud dog, surely?  I'm not nitpicking just going on the information given on the website I am looking at.  As a previous large breed owner (Bullmastiffs and a Cane Corso) and knowing the kinds of problems these breeds can be frought with I am just angry that anyone could do such a thing and consider themselves to be a responsible, respectable person who is with their breed for the good of it. 

If you didn't want questions raised concerning your bitch, why post the question when you knew she wasn't scored before you bred her, and still isn't and now you are searching for a suitable stud? 

Yes, this site is meant to help and educate people and I am sure it most certainly does. And if this thread just educates one person into getting their dog health tested/hip scored, BEFORE having a litter and then going on to embark on any kind of breeding programme then it has served it's purpose!  People sit here day after day giving out all sorts of good advice for free in their spare time dealing with the situation that you could possibly be creating of the hip dysplasia kind in your own dogs if you haven't done so already!

I'm sorry folks who have to read this but I am hopping mad that anyone could be so irresponsible!!! :-(

This thread really should be locked :-(

> This thread really should be locked 

Why people are giving informed reasons why a dog that is going to be bred from and has been bred from before the reasons why health tests should be carried out.
Most people on here want the very best for their dogsm, and they have given help along with information on what should be done. No personal attacks.
If someone doesnt wasnt to hear thay havnt done the right thing by breeding thier dog they shouldnt come one here. They are only wanting whats best for the future of the breeds. And not encouraging un health tested litters.
Lea.

Not opening a can here,  but maybe the Op had a litter like some pet owners do and enjoyed the experience that much, decided they would like to breed properly and then researched . Every one has to learn and we generally learn from our mistakes . How did most of the breeders of dogs start out ? I bet their first experience (for most i must add)was not completely ethical by todays standards. Most breeders on here will show or work  and will have had good mentors but some people don't have mentors and come here for good advice not a put down so please think about every possible scenario(sp) not just in it for the money about breeding . If they take their time to try and research they must have a little bit of good in them just need extra help from people on here.Not like the BY breeders who just do it .  just my thoughts on it. sorry if it is wrong and offends ppl

Why should this thread be locked?

Because I happen to think it's highly unethical that this dog has been bred from but not hip scored and have put my view across saying so?

Last time I looked we lived in a democracy where freedom of speech is allowed, is this not so anymore? Or should we all shut our mouths because it suits the OP?

The OP states in one of her posts that she is training to be a vet nurse, if this is so she should already know about the importance of health testing before any breeding programme is entered upon, but clearly didn't bother, she also states in one of her posts that her dogs have never been bred from but on her website she clearly admits that she has...so why shouldn't people question her?

I've never been one to beat around the bush and never been backwards in coming forwards when I feel that someone isn't doing the right thing concerning the health of the bitch and her future progeny, it should be of the utmost importance!

It's no attack, I think many would feel the same way infact folk have been rather easy on the OP in light of what has surfaced!

I just don't like the 'no hip score' before being bred from..that is all and just saying what I feel.

maybe a minor point but should she be bred again so soon if she had a litter last september?

Id preferably like a proven show winner as is my girl and hip scores would be a plus but not 100% neccesary
why are they not neccesary in a stud? he should be just as important to hip score?

Id preferably like a proven show winner as is my girl

I'll do my best to show her in 2008

- quote from the OP's website.

So she's not been shown, not been hipscored, had a litter last September

>>This thread really should be locked

The moderation of this forum is not for debate on the forum. Please address all further questions OFF FORUM. Either by PM or email.

However for Clarification:

Threads will not be locked on demand. This is a public forum for the purpose of debate. If a member does not wish to hear all replies (both positive and negative will be offered) to their post, then they should not post on a public forum. We will not lock threads just because some do not agree or like the replies that are presented. If a reply breaks our TOS, then it will be removed and if necessary that member may find their own posting rights withdrawn. However, all points of view can be submitted to all questions, as long as it is done in a responsible manner. You all have the option not to read a thread and you all have the option to IGNORE any individuals that you may wish to.

Thank you.

maybe a minor point but should she be bred again so soon if she had a litter last september?  I don't think anyone should be thinking about breeding a bitch again so soon after her last litter.

Id preferably like a proven show winner as is my girl and hip scores would be a plus but not 100% neccesary
why are they not neccesary in a stud? he should be just as important to hip score?
I think the OP would find that most people in the breed that have 'worthy' dogs that would compliment hers, would have been hipscored, I know a very good breeder of Dogues who has hipscored all their dogs.

I would think that the OP is perhaps struggling to find a decent dog because her own dog isn't hipscored!!

I think that doing the "thinking" and planning now is very sensible, just so long as the bitch has a decent intervals between litters.  I would want at least a year's gap for a bitch that has already reared a decent size litter.

Just as a matter of interest, what does the DDB club's code of ethics demand/recommend re hip scoring?  Anybody know?  

I am not saying that you don't care about dogs, but the op did come on here for advice and whether she has done the "right" thing beforehand she has come on here asking for advice. Surely it would be better to guide someone you believe to be doing the "wrong" thing with regards to breeding towards what they should be doing in a friendly and positive manner as opposed to basically labelling them an irresponsible breeder and frightening them off?

I have seen many posts on here telling us all that education is the way forward and surely that is true for everyone regardless of what "mistakes" they have made in the past?

my dog had a litter october 06 then 6 months later I had a mishap. He had been in kennels for her season, they tied, no i didn't get the dates wrong.  after posting on here i spoke to the dogs breeders, 2 of my local vets at the same practice and the Kennel Club, who all confirmed that it was ok for her to go ahead and have a litter so soon after because there were no complications with her earlier litter.  I thought long and hard and decided to have the injection which doesn't come cheap.  3 weeks later the vet said that he coul palpate pups. I was devastated 2 weeks later she was scanned and sigh of relied no pups.  I can't comment on health issues because i don't know enough about them only for my breed.  but please if the KC say its OK to breed every 6 months whos to say this is wrong.

Linda

>what does the DDB club's code of ethics demand/recommend re hip scoring?

The DDB Code of Ethics doesn't actually mention hip-scoring by name, but says:
"I will only breed from those dogs and bitches believed to be free from known serious hereditary defects"

It also says "I will leave an interval of 12 months between litters.".