I'm interested to hear what people feel about the possible change from an opt-in system to an opt-out one?

Personally, I don't like the idea.  I feel if people want to donate, they currently have the opportunity to do so.  It is a wonderful gift, made freely by individuals under no duress to explain that decision.  On the other hand, some people in favour of changing to an opt-out system do seem to be taking a hard line and derogatory attitude towards those who might wish to opt out.  Surely everyone should be entitled to decide what happens to their own body after death without being derided and stigmatised?

One remark I've heard a lot is that people who choose to opt out should then not be entitled to receive donated organs.  OK, so some might think that fair but under the current system, do you think a donor is likely to worry that their donated organs could well be used for someone who isn't an organ donor?

I think an assumption is being made that most people want to be donors but just 'don't get round to registering' and therefore this change, if made, will result in lots of extra organs becoming available.  I'm not so sure.  The opt-out numbers may be far greater than they think as many people might just have a distaste for an official assumption that their bodies should be used for spare parts.  Added to that, what about the people who only want to donate to other donors and the 'picky' people who are making comments such as "I wouldn't want my organs to go to anyone in the armed forces/police/criminals/illegal immigrants etc etc (the list is endless based on people's personal prejudices)"?  They obviously won't get any such assurances and therefore are also likely to opt-out.

What do others think?

I think its a bit selfish to want to use someones donated organs but then say I wont donate mine. People who donate their organs give such a wonderful gift after they die. But then again I don't understand why people who can give blood don't, I had a blood transfusion after I had Matthew, if someone hadn't donated blood I might not be here today.
Mary

I am in favour of an 'opt out' system.

>"I wouldn't want my organs to go to anyone in the armed forces/police/criminals/illegal immigrants etc etc (the list is endless based on people's personal prejudices)"? 

I wonder, if they were waiting for a live-saving organ transplant, would they be so picky about who they took an organ from ;-)

I am a regular blood donor and am on the organ donor register simply because I may need to be a recipient one day and I can't expect other people to step up and be donors if I'm not prepared to do it myself.

I'm all for an opt-out system. I'm one of those who wants to be an organ donor but doesn't know where to register that and hasn't gotten around to finding out. I'd also be quite happy to have them say you have to be on the donor register in order to get an organ if the system switches. You either believe in donating organs or you don't. If you don't want to donate I can't for the life of me think how you could accept one. Any people who would opt-out because they can't choose to only save lives based on their prejudices isn't likely to opt-in either so there's no loss there.

For Lori, and anyone else who may wish to register as an organ donor, you can do so here :-)

Once you die you are gone and if your organs give the chance of life to somebody else then I am for any scheme which increases the chance of this happening :-)

I think its a bit selfish to want to use someones donated organs but then say I wont donate mine

But that's exactly the kind of attitude I'm concerned about Mary - though not having a dig at you at all.  I wonder just how many of the people currently awaiting organ transplants are registered donors themselves (or were before their illness) - does anyone think they are selfish to want a transplant when they aren't donors or say that they shouldn't be entitled to receive one?  Of course not.

What I don't like about the current system is that even though you are a registered organ donor, your relatives have the right to refuse to donate them if they wish, unless you have donated your body for research !

I'm for an opt out system, then it is your own choice & not that of your relatives, who may have different thoughts to you or who are too upset to make a rational decision

I believe MM that the practice of consulting relatives would still apply to an opt-out system - I may be wrong though.

I don't think that is right to give someone else the right to go against your wishes & my will makes it clear-Organ donation, cremation, no ceremony-just a Rabbi saying a prayer for me

I think an opt-out system would be a good idea. I think if you have strong views about not wanting to donate you're more likely to do something about it.

Opt Out definately. The decision will be taken away from the family and save them extra stress and will save time for the medical staff. Must admit, I'm not keen on donating to people who refuse to be on the list themselves but I guess if they are waiting for an organ the chances are their state of health won't be 100% anyway so they couldn't donate everything..................so they might as well be on it (if that makes sense !).

I'd prefer an opt-out system. Frankly, when I pop off, they can do what they like with anything worth having. I'd rather any part of me could be used to help someone who could have a long happy life to lead than my organs just uselessly turn into worm food or ash. :-)
A lot of people I know say they would donate but, like you say, haven't got round to registering etc. It'd be a terrible waste if the worst happened and their wishes weren't clear. 

Now I know I can't be the only one with concerns about this, so maybe all the people with similar worries are already concerned about being stigmatised and therefore won't publicly own up!  Feel free to PM me with your views if you prefer.

I'm for the opt-out system. :)  I am a regular blood donner, I have signed up as an organ donner afew times I think.  It's on my boots advantage card when I applied for this.  I also, on my next try to give blood, am going to ask about the bone marrow donner list.

I hope one day, if i ever need any of these there is someone there to donate to me, and if anyone ever needs me I am there for them!  It came up yesterday with my mum that I'm on the organ donation list and she didn't seem to impressed but it is my choice and I have made it clear if anything happends to me I want this to happen. :)

As long as people know how they can opt-out I am all for this way to be the way.  I can't see why there will be a fuss because if you don't want to donate you just opt out ;) 

As for who gets my organs when I die or who gets my blood, I don't care :) As long as they will take good care of it, as afterall, it is mine! ;)  

I can't see why there will be a fuss because if you don't want to donate you just opt out

Yes, fine, if everyone equally respected people's right to opt out like they do people's right to opt in.  As I've already said, sadly many people (not talking about on here) already seem to be criticising and wanting to penalise those who would choose to opt out.

When my mum died it was her wishes that her body be used for research. Any organs that could be used were. We all knew what her wishes were and we all agreed. In fact I've told my own kids that I want to do the same if possible. I firmly believe in giving someone else the chance of a decent life. Though I don't know if I personally would want someone elses parts inside of me. Double standards? I don't really know, but at least I would have given someone else the choice of receiving.

My M-I-L died waiting for a kidney :-(

All of us hold donation cards. I think I would prefer the opt-out clause. As someone has already said, if you really don't want to donate, for any reason, you are far more likely to do something about it. We seem to live in a 'I'll do it tomorrow' society.

I think that if organ donation was seen as the 'norm' and 'opting out' was seen as unusual, no-one would think twice about donating their organs. Donating your body for 'Medical Research' is another issue.

I wonder just how many of the people currently awaiting organ transplants are registered donors themselves (or were before their illness) - does anyone think they are selfish to want a transplant when they aren't donors or say that they shouldn't be entitled to receive one?  Of course not.

I am very much in favour of the opt-out system.  I will more than likely need a double lung transplant in the future, I did not know this when I signed the donor register 20 years ago! 

I saw a sign in a Dutch hospital and thought it was rather appropriate  "Don't take your organs to heaven .......................................... heaven knows we need them here." :-)

http://www.livelifethengivelife.co.uk/

i'm in favour of an opt out simply because most people don't think about it during life to opt in. Though frankly its usually up to the family post mortum unless the person is a registered donor.

> One remark I've heard a lot is that people who choose to opt out should then not be entitled to receive donated organs

frankly what would be the point in this? people who don't want to donate probably don't want someone elses organs, and people who need donated organs are unlikely to be donating their own.

> Added to that, what about the people who only want to donate to other donors and the 'picky' people who are making comments such as "I wouldn't want my organs to go to anyone in the armed forces/police/criminals/illegal immigrants etc etc (the list is endless based on people's personal prejudices)"?  They obviously won't get any such assurances and therefore are also likely to opt-out.

i doubt lots of organs will ever become available purely down to the stringent checks before an organ is considered suitable for use, in which case (rightly, or in my view wrongly) most of the groups you mentioned wouldn't get a look in anyway- if we're deporting a dying women to ghana for not filling in her forms on time i doubt we'd give her a new kidney.

I first spoke to my mother who is a nurse that often works on harvests when i was about 6 (??), she'd mentioned doing one at work and i asked, she explained. i asked her if she'd let them do that to me or anyone else in the family if they died, absolutely was the answer. i totally agree. please excuse the bluntness (and forgive if you disagree) but once we are dead it is so much meat, why shouldn;t someone else get the benefit? my 'me' is my soul, not a certain amount of carbon and water. it just makes me sad that my bowel will never be used (crohnes) and a family history of kidney probs means they might not be used either, and mild asthma takes my lungs off the list. however, i;ve wonderful corneas and a lovely healthy heart ;)

Hmmm, I'm not registered as a donor but very likely I will need a heart transplant one day.  There is no need for me to know who has donated it and of course I would be eternally grateful for a donor if it saved my life.  But I didn't like the idea of ME being chopped up once I'm dead to donate my bits.  However, a huge percentage of people have to have post mortems anyway so what's the difference?  If the new system comes in that we're all donors unless we say so, then I'm in. 

CG

ditto! is, organ donation, cremation (loath the idea of rotting underground) but yes a service, afterall its not really for the deceased its more for those left behind.

sorry annie, i don't think anyone intended to stigmatise you... can i ask do you feel we're being critical of the choice not to donate ornot to donate and still expect a donation if it came to it? (please be assured not seeking to be mean, just interested in a discussion on it)

I'm all for the Opt-out system, Poeple don't carry donor cards because it's too much trouble to register or they just don't think about it. Many organs are only any use up to a certain age, and often it's not untill you are older that you start to think of this. By then many organs are no longer of any use. At least with an Opt-out system the organs of the young, health but sadly "To immature to give it any thought" would be available for transplant. It would make people think about things earlier on in life.
Oh and if mine are of any use...well anyone can have them, they will be no use to me when I'm gone!! and I won't know!
Aileen

I suspect that some resistance to organ donation, is due to the definition of 'Death' !

sorry annie, i don't think anyone intended to stigmatise you... can i ask do you feel we're being critical of the choice not to donate ornot to donate and still expect a donation if it came to it? (please be assured not seeking to be mean, just interested in a discussion on it)

No, don't worry, I'm not taking any of this personally at all and you'll notice I haven't said what I would do if this change took place :).  I'm just concerned that people should have the absolute right to choose what feels right for them in this respect without being judged or criticised for it.  To go from a system whereby organ donation is considered a wonderful gift to one where people might feel they are being coerced into it just feels wrong to me. 

i see your point, it is rather institutionalising a value of liberal western culture. but then i believe that if you belive in something you should own that belief, stand up and say "this is how i feel, its my damned kidney, you can't have it!".  i think if an opt out sstem was to be in place the system would need to be widely advertised so that it is fully and completely known, perhaps have it as a requirement on your medical records that it is noted if you want/don't want this done. this would save a lot of time as well with debate from family (i also think some kind of living will should be included with your records). unfortunately we have to legislate things to make the world run smoothly and whatever we legislate gives over anideological foundation that effects socialisation and influence. however we are freely educated with the liberal right to choose in this country, in which case can we really call it coersion?

Hi Annie,

>I'm just concerned that people should have the absolute right to choose what feels right for them in this respect without being judged or criticised for it.  To go from a system whereby organ donation is considered a wonderful gift to one where people might feel they are being coerced into it just feels wrong to me. 

That pretty much sums up how I feel about this too :)

Personally I'm not in favour of an "opt-out" clause as I think it verges on dictatorship because, not so much at the moment or when changes are implemented, but further down the line when things are not in public discussion etc and the situation is no longer to the forefront of anyone's mind in those circumstances someone may well be "harvested" from who would not, for whatever reasons *personal to them*, wish to be included in the donor system.

Teri :)

I have too many worries about the consequences of the opt out system :(

In a perfect world it would be the best idea, but this is our world and our NHS (where's the rolling eyes smiley?) and mistakes are made regularly :(

I'd also like to know, if I were in hospital and someone of national importance needed a transplant urgently, and my organs were the right tissue type, what would be my chances of survival?   It may be a completely unfounded fear, but it's there all the same :(

TBH Dill I think there would be many people who could well share similar concerns - it is not perhaps a popular thought in the main (or rather not necessarily openly voiced) but never the less a very valid one :)

regards, Teri

I'd also like to know, if I were in hospital and someone of national importance needed a transplant urgently, and my organs were the right tissue type, what would be my chances of survival?   It may be a completely unfounded fear, but it's there all the same 

I honestly think you wouldn't need to worry about that :)  In the UK we're not quite at that stage yet surely.  If you say you don't want to donate then you don't have to.  We're still being given the choice :)

CG

Copper girl,

Mistakes get made in the NHS - even when they are trying to do right.  I almost died because the consultants (4 of them and their teams) didn't read my notes properly - despite me repeatedly telling them what was in them! 

In the scenario I outlined, what are the chances of my opt-out form being found (not 'gone missing') and applied?

What an interesting debate!!!
I, personally dont want my organs donated and if the system turns to "opt out" then i will. I have also spoken to my mum about this. I spend a lot of time on motorbikes and understand the risks that come with it. My mum (next of kin) knows i dont want my organs donated and i dont want a cremation, i want burial.
I would consider myself a kind, giving person and if i needed to donate a kidney/blood/bone marrow etc would happily do it when im alive. However, i want to be left in peace when i die. Also, after seeing the damage done when people have post mortems its not nice for the family to see that as the last image of their loved one. I imagine its the same with organ donation. I know a nurse who said bodies were absolutley butchered by doctors removing organs from deceased to be used in donations. I dont believe that when you die "thats it" and think the body deserves to be treated with the same respect alive or dead.
I realise i will probably get criticism for my views but unfortunately thats how i feel.

I feel exactly the same as you Fred's mum. :-)

Just reread my last post and it reads as if I wouldn't be a donor - which isn't actually the case ;)

I would just like reassurance that in a precarious hospital situation where things could go either way, my survival wouldn't depend on the demand for organs of my tissue type

Regarding the government's proposals recently, I get the feeling that we are slowly losing our right to choose, compulsory ID cards, opt OUT organ donation, weighing of children at school... it's all getting a bit too much Brave New World and 1984 for my liking :(

My son feels exactly like you, Fred's Mum. He's considered it and doesn't want to be used for spare parts, nor does he want to be cremated - too polluting.

>weighing of children at school... it's all getting a bit too much Brave New World and 1984 for my liking

We were weighed and measured, checked for verrucas and spinal curvature during the first PE session of each academic year - way back in the 60s! I didn't realise it had ever stopped!

Hi Freds Mum and Anna, can I ask you both a question?  I don't wish to upset anyone but wonder what you would do if you, your child or a loved one needed a transplant?  Would you refuse?  Would you consider going on the active transplant list? 

As I said I really don't want to upset anyone I just find this a facinating subject. :-)

Jax

OOO JG

No-one weighed me or any of my class as a child in the 60's although I was measured by several teachers and other children who couldn't believe I was so tiny :D :D :D

I agree wholeheartedly in an opt out system. I AM registered as an organ donor, have made my family aware of my wishes, and have made them swear not to deny me that opportunity should the occasion arise. (I threatened to haunt them  :-D ) The reason that many feel an opt out system is better, is based on statistics.......I understand that 60 % of people say they would like to donate their organs, but ony15% are actually registered donors. That is a huge amount of people who wish to donate but just havent got around to sorting it. my guess would be that those who do not wish to donate have stronger feelings, and wouldl therefore be less apathetic, and more motivated to get off their bums and "unregister". This would seem then to meet all needs.
I have worked in intensive care for 20 years and believe you me, no one is going to deliberately take organs if you have not consented. The threat of litigation and the loss of your career hangs too heavily on us as individuals.
I do not feel that people who refuse to be on the register should be denied atransplant in law.....but i do feel that it is immoral of that individual. I worked in a transplant unit and a white woman who was awaiting a transplant said to me that she wouldnt want a black persons liver!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I felt like saying to her that she should just die then if she were that fussy

I understand that 60 % of people say they would like to donate their organs, but ony15% are actually registered donors.

But then an awful lot of people say they will vote in a certain way when asked by pollsters before elections, yet we all know things don't turn out like that! :-D  I think a lot of people asked if they would like to donate organs would be much more likely to answer yes, even if they have no intention of doing so, because they feel it would look bad to say no.

I too am in the minority of 'not me'.
I was a blood donor until I had to have long term medication and it was no longer good enough,but gut reaction stops me wanting to be an organ donor!
I have three offspring and ask myself what I feel about none being available to them..........I still cant say I'd be keen for them to be recipients either!
There seems to be no reason for this and I know my husband would wish to donate. I expect my children all do too........sorry  all you others but I cant go against a gut reaction.

Karen :-(

Hi Freds Mum and Anna, can I ask you both a question?  I don't wish to upset anyone but wonder what you would do if you, your child or a loved one needed a transplant?  Would you refuse?

It's obviously up to Freds Mum and Anna to respond to your questions if they wish to but I would just like to make the point again that with the current system, no-one awaiting transplant surgery is asked whether they are themselves donors in order to decide if they are 'worthy' of receiving donated organs. :)

Hi Jax,
Its fine to ask - i realise that my opinion is going to raise questions and some criticism. Obvioulsy i cant say for sure because im fortunate not to have been in the position where a loved one is waiting for an organ.Maybe i'd feel differently but when i step back and think, if someone had such a strong opinion on a subject like this then i wouldn't hold it against them. There are some things in life where i have a "not bothered" attitude where as some people are passionate about their beliefs. This i suppose is my passionate belief. I get seriously worried (not about dying) but about what happens after. Maybe im a control freak but i'd hate to think something would happen to me after im gone that i wouldn't like. And because of my love for danger and all things wild thats why i have discussed this in great detail with people who would make those decisions. I suppose seeing someone close to me stitched up after a post mortem had an effect. There is no way she looked the same or as peaceful as someone who had not been touched. And as i said before i've heard some horror stories about how your body gets treated.
I'd be more than willing to help family member or stranger if i had the ability to do so but there is just something that i cant get away from with organ donation.
Not sure if that answered the question, i kind of garbled on, but as i said its the thing that im passionate about!
x

annie ns. I appreciate your feelings, and you are entitled to opt out if this system comes in. I have no problem with that.

You seem to be having a problem accepting that a certain proportion of others do not feel the same way as you. If you look at the replies on this board you will get a fair idea of the percentage  of people for and against donation. I think its arrogant of you to claim that most people in polls believe the same as you , but lie in the polls to look better. Why dont you feel its possible that these adults would actually know their own minds, and answer honestly? just because people express beliefs that are different to yours does not mean that they must be lying. I am sure the people on this board arent lying....they didnt have to reply to your post if they wished to keep their views secret.  THe fact seems to be that the majority of people woudl be in favour of an opt out system, and that in a democratic society we should abide by a majority view, especially as more lives will be saved.

Any individual is perfectly welcome to opt out, and will not be punished for doing so.

I want to donate and have made this clear to my partner and he feels the same.

However, I too worry about how they treat your body to harvest the organs.  Some years ago I saw a documentry about donating, a woman gave permission for her husbands organs to be taken as he was brain dead.

It was only after this was done that she found out that they took them before they turned off life support and didn't use anesthetic as the organs are better drug free.  She was so distressed, kept saying how did they know he didn't feel it, the doctors couldn't proove that he couldn't!!  Kinda freeked me out at the time. 

Maybe if the public was made aware of exactly how organs are harvested and if there are legal standards to be followed then they would be better able to make an informed choice.

The day will come when my body will lie upon a white sheet neatly tucked under four corners of a mattress located in a hospital busily occupied with the living and the dying. At a certain moment, a doctor will determine that my brain has ceased to function and, for all practical purposes, my life has stopped.

When that happens, do not attempt to instil artificial life into my body by the use of a machine. And don't call this my death bed. Let it be called the Bed of Life, and let whatever is usable be taken from it to help others lead fuller lives.

Give my sight to the man who has never seen a sunrise, a baby's face or love in the eyes of a woman. Give my heart to a person whose own heart has caused nothing but endless days of pain. Give my blood to a teenager who was pulled from the wreckage of a car, so that he might live to see his grandchildren.

Give my kidneys to one who depends on a machine to exist. Take my bones, every nerve and muscle in my body and find a way to make a crippled child walk.

Explore every corner of my brain. Take my cells, if necessary, and let them grow so that some day, a speechless boy will shout at the crack of a cricket bat, and a deaf girl will hear the sound of rain against her window.

Burn what is left and scatter my ashes to the winds to help the flowers grow.

If you must bury something, let it be my faults, my weaknesses and all prejudice against my fellow man. Give my sins to the devil. Give my soul to God.

If, by chance, you wish to remember me, do it with a kind deed or word to someone who needs you, if you do all I have asked, I will live forever.

annie ns. I appreciate your feelings, and you are entitled to opt out if this system comes in. I have no problem with that.

You seem to be having a problem accepting that a certain proportion of others do not feel the same way as you. If you look at the replies on this board you will get a fair idea of the percentage  of people for and against donation. I think its arrogant of you to claim that most people in polls believe the same as you , but lie in the polls to look better. Why dont you feel its possible that these adults would actually know their own minds, and answer honestly? just because people express beliefs that are different to yours does not mean that they must be lying. I am sure the people on this board arent lying....they didnt have to reply to your post if they wished to keep their views secret.

As I've already said, I haven't stated how I would act should this change come into force - people can assume what they like of course, doesn't make it fact :)

I'm sorry that you took my rather lighthearted post about polls in such a serious way and now think I have a problem accepting views other than my own.  That certainly isn't the case but opinion polls have been proved wrong time and time again so I for one would never take them as gospel or even reliable.  I certainly haven't accused anyone who has posted on this topic as lying and have absolutely no belief that they are.  Please don't sour an interesting debate by making such assumptions about me which I find rather offensive.

I think I have already made my own opinions on the subject matter clear but will just reiterate what I said earlier which was I'm just concerned that people should have the absolute right to choose what feels right for them in this respect without being judged or criticised for it.  That works both ways in my book.

I work for the Coroner.

I personally feel that in order to decide you have to have all the facts it is all about making an informed decision. All the Organ Donor co-ordinators that I have ever come across are well informed and able to answer any questions about harvesting that are put to them. You would be amazed at the questions that people ask. Everyone is different and some want to know everything and others nothing.

With my job I am also deal with Tissue donation after death. Its not just Organs that are used, they are able to use bone, heart valves, skin, tendons and more. Sorry if I am repeating others, I didn't read every single thread - there are loads so obviously a great topic :-)
Again I am not sure if this has been mentioned but even if you consent in life, if your family object once you are dead they cant touch you - that is so wrong if you ask me! It is all a legal nightmare.

I always feel so so sorry for those who want to donate their loved ones organs / tissue but cant because of recent therapy or some other reason. After making that brave decision to be told 'no' must be heart breaking.

Maybe I have become hardened to the emotional side of things, I don't know. I would 100% let them have anything that would be of use to anyone else, I believe that once you are gone that's it. This is a personal thing and everyone is entitled to their opinion.

My understanding professionally is that there is never likely to be an opt out scheme because of the human rights act, it would never be passed. A great shame in my opinion.

Briefly touching on the Post Mortem aspect that someone mentioned. I attend these regularly, and we never do them unless we absolutely have to, they are also done with respect and dignity. Well certainly where I work.

Sorry if I have gone on - your lucky I stopped now -  I could type for England on this subject lol
Rx

Thanks for that. Good to hear the opinion of someone involved in the subject profesilonally. Somebody once said (although i doubt its true) that as a female, if you agree to have your organs donated, that they could take your eggs. Thus meaning another woman could have your child?? IT sounds like a load of rubbish to me but i just thought id ask?