Heya. My parents own a 19 month old retrever, who I give a hand with, walking and taking him to training class if my dad gets held up.

He is a lovley dog, wonderfull in the house, but outside he is out of control. We persist with his training and use a gentle leader harness, but he seems determined to greet everyone and every dog he meets. Hes great with people, although he does try to jump up to say hello, which we are working to rectify. The problem lies with other dogs, he seems exited to say hello, (tail wagging head up) but then he gets agressive, especially with other males (snarling and barking, growling) ...hes un-neutered, as he is a pedigree (and in my baised oppinion stunning :p) I would love to show him one day, provided I get him under control :p, and neutering would put an end to that. We are really struggling to read him, and Goldies are renowned for their gentleness...

About half an hour ago he came up to me looking thorughly miserable and kept hitting my legs with his muzzle, hed managed to get a doggy chew (it was a big thing mind you) stuck in his teeth, keeping his mouth shut, and it was catching his tounge and obviously uncomfortable. So my o/h tried to remove it, but the dog got a bit snappy with him...hes Never showed agression to people before...we managed to free him of it but when I tried to check his mouth he got a bit snappy and started wrinkling his nose up at me. About 5 minutes later he was bounding about again playing with his toys, could it just have been the pain making him edgy?

I may be over analysing, as a friends, once gentle natured, bearded collie developed agresion early on due to a brain tumour and started attacking people so was PTS, I guess Im paraniod about that happening, as mad as that is!

Does anyone have and avice on ither issue?

Thanks :)

It sounds like he has not had enough socialisation with other dogs and being on lead (because control is lacking) feels threatened as he cannot make the choice of flight if the meeting does not go well. 

As for the snapping, a dog in discomfort may well do so, as she is in distress.

It isn't too late to start training him for show, but it normally is done right from the start at 14 weeks of age, as would his obedience training classes.

A good training class should help you parents gain the skills to train him and also give him controlled socialisation.

Thank you for your reply :)

We have done our best to socilise him, but he is a big powerfull dog and other dog owners are wary of him, although he used to be fine with other dogs. He was attacked by a GSD once (altough no harm was done) and gave as good as he got, I do wonder if that started it all...

He attends a training class weekly and has done since he was about 4 months old, and we follow through with thier advice, but the trainers seem adament he should be neutered...however their dogs arnt We do intend on finding a new class, and thinking about it that may very well be the answer. Showing Cai wasnt intended, he was bought as a family pet, however I have been told on several occasions that he is a great example of his breed, and curiosity has got the better of me Im afraid!

We did at one point have him walked with a few other dogs and he was more than happy to run and play with them. These walks unfortunatley ended when the other dogs owner moved away.

Its just a bit bewlidering that these probalems seemed to appear out of the blue...

Hi there,

firstly I'll address your last concern which was the removing the stuck chew from his mouth - the chances are that he was in pain and this was possibly made worse just by your best attempts to remove the chew, so not necessarily anything to be overly alarmed at :)  Practice in future giving him something like a chew, then when he's had time to enjoy it, offer him another treat (even another chew ;) ) as a *swap* for the one he has.  Let him drop the one he's already munching on first, while at the same time offer the new one and when he has that in his mouth just slip away the original (hope that attempt at a description makes sense!)  NB, Always offer something of at least equal if not higher value (in your dog's opinion) than what you want to swap for.  This will help towards being able to take anything off of him without him distrusting your motives (i.e. THEY want to steal my precious bone, chew, you etc so I have to protect it).  In a very short time your dog will not have any misgivings (if he had any in the first place) about letting you take anything from him.

Additional to the above, it is always a good idea to groom regularly, (regardless of coat needs) and get your dog used to being handled all over and having his mouth, ears, feet and genit#ls checked over - this will help in swiftly identifying any physical/medical problems so he gets prompt treatment and assist the vet and nurses to be able to handle him confidently and safely :)  Best to begin this regime sooner rather than later - have him on a loose lead indoors, someone holding the lead and offering teensy treats at the same time to keep his attention, while another house hold member continues with the grooming and body check etc.

Now - onto the walking / greeting area :) (Yikes, by the time I type everything out it will be redundant as 50 + others will cover in a few lines what I take War & Peace efforts to come up with :rolleyes: )

I'm guessing that since he's on a GL harness that he's still more than a little OTT and, possibly, rarely off lead?  How early was he allowed off lead to meet, greet and interact with his own species?  Often dogs which have had limited (or no) off lead exercise from puppyhood have a poor manner in greeting other dogs - quite simply they haven't had the best opportunity to learn ideal "dog to dog etiquette" :)  IMO, perfect doggy manners are best taught by and learnt *by dogs with dogs.*

I wouldn't be concerned about a neutering issue at present - this lad is at the classic "raging hormones" stage (oft referred to as "the Kevin stage" :P ) and so he is not showing a hormonally balanced character in his actions or reactions to other dogs.  Equally other dogs, particularly entire males but also mature bitches, will simply not like him much at the moment because he's being a doggy "pain" - so he's more likely to be told off for his OTT greetings anyway.

If you can fill in the blanks about his experiences from puppy hood, it may well help to provide more solutions.

Edited to add: "Yikes, by the time I type everything out it will be redundant" - yep, told ya :D

best wishes, Teri

Hes usually not bothered what you take from him, or what you do to him, hence why I was a bit scared by his reactions. Its good to know it was proably just a pain responce :)

He did meet a few other dogs whist he was a pup, but you are right, not off lead, as we didint know any other dog owners well enough at this point to borrow their dogs for socialising purpouses, his recall is abysmal and at a young age we didnt let him off with other dogs as we couldnt get him back for love nor squeaky toy! He did used to get to run with a few other dogs when he was about a year old, as I said in my previous post :)

He gets about an hour a day off lead and about 3 walking in total on weekdays, more on the weekend, as he will come back to my dad who has him in the fields first thing in the moring and then againearly evening. Im dubious about letting him off as he has bolted after deer before and left me frantically trying to track him for about half an hour before re apperaing (casual retriever grin in place) from behind a bush!

A little OTT doesnt come close, hes mental, he ends up on his back legs (whereby hes my hight 5 foot!) with the unfortunate person on the other end struggling to get him to move. He fixates, and moving him in any direction inst an option till the other dog is out of sight. Hes ok ish at dog training, but as soon as you let the lead go hes off jumping on everything and everyone...

Hi again,

this IMO is classic OTT behaviour from a dog that has had too little interaction with calmer, more sensible and good natured dogs from a young age - don't feel too bad because not everyone unfortunately is confident enough to let a puppy off lead as soon as the vac stage is over.  Equally not everyone lives in an area where there are sufficient opportunities for dog 2 dog meetings (or with enough good natured dogs to safely alow a puppy loose).

TBH, my initial reaction is that the training classes he's attending may not be at all suitable now - whether this is because the abilities of the trainer are restricted or not I don't obviously know, but IMO these problems should have been picked up and suitably addressed LONG before now.  It may be worth seeking a training club which offers 1 2 1 training for specific problems or possibly asking your vet for a referral to a reputable behaviourist.

There are several members on forum more clued up on remedial techniques than me who may well offer some advice which you can put into practice in the interim.

kind regards, Teri :)

Really sorry to say this, but in my opinion a Golden should never respond like this, even to discomfort. However, you really have got to perserve with classes and socialisation. There is no way you are going to be able to show him if he is showing that level of aggression with other dogs, honestly you would be treated like a leper and that would leave you all being very upset. May I ask, did you get him from a reputable breeder. I ask because my first Golden was puppy farmed and that is exactly the sort of thing we saw in her. I promised myself that my next one would be very well bred specifically for temperament and you can really tell the difference. If from a reputabel breeder that I doi suggest that you contact them and ask some breed specific advice. In the meantime I do agree that this could be a case of the Kevin period but you do have to gain control of this before it is out of control. I can actually see why the trainers say neuter as, if they feel that he is not of good temperament they will always suggest that as the final thing. Don't want to sound negative but hearing a Golden do this always concerns me.

I don't think that the fact he is a Golden means he is immune to poor/lack of soclailisation, training or pain. He is just acting like a dog.

Neutering is proven to often make these situations worse. It certainly will not make any difference to his behaviour. What he needs is proper training and socialisation. This doesn't seem to be your fault, you have taken him to training classes, but it does seem like maybe a different training class would be better for him.

The on-lead 'aggression' is not uncommon. If you find a good trainer, they will also probabyl have their own dog they can use to help you with this, but chances are, he would be a blot better of lead when he won't feel as threatened.

I agree with asking his breeder for help.

>I don't think that the fact he is a Golden means he is immune to poor/lack of soclailisation, training or pain. He is just acting like a dog

Well said Jackson :)  I think we can occasionally get too hung up on what are expected to be particularly easy/placid or willfull/OTT etc.  Certainly in any situation which can involve extreme pain or fear a dog is, IMO,  just being instinctive in it's reaction - not performing as a particular breed.

regards, Teri

Snap Alison, I was just going to say exactly the same. A Golden acting like this sadly usually comes from anything BUT a reputable breeder. There are a fair few ones about with dodgy temperaments and they all tend to have orginated in puppy farms, so pet shops, puppy superstores,and also back yard breeders in some cases. UNLESS he is ill! That can of course account for a change in temperament.

Cais mother was a champion dog and of a wonderfull temprament, (shes from the Newlin stud) and that is one of the reasons she was bred from. His dad is a Lilleslea dog, which I was informed was a reputable stud. We have his full family history, coming down through lines of well bred and show champion dogs. I really doubt this was any fault of the breeder. He was insured, vaccinated and KC registered before we were even interviewed to be considered to give him a home, we also signed a garentee that if our own vet found any problem when we got him or we wernt happy, we would be refunded our money and he would be found a different home. I highlty doubt any bad breeder would put that much time and effort into their dogs.

We have done our utmost to get him socialised but it is not easy, as Ive said, he is enormous, and people are wary. Hes never shown agression at dog class, even when he ran off during recall and ran riot, there was only once when a bigger dog, who was normally muzzled, lunged at him, and for that one I dont blame him in the slightest. I have to stress that even when a vet was stapling his foot back together he didnt even growl, hes usualy the most placid dog around people. It is only when out walking weve seen this responce to other dogs. If hes off lead and another dog snaps at him he tends to give them space...so it could be that hes insecure on a lead.

He did seem very freaked out that he couldnt move his mouth when we were trying to remove the chew, I think he could have just been genuinley scared. Usually if hes hurt himslef he doesnt come whimpering for help, so this was a first, and its only usually on closer examination weve found something to be wrong. I just grabbed hold of him now, and checked in his mouth, just to be sure, and he just sat and let me do it, his normal placid self. I think worrying like that may have just been an over reaction on my part.

I am searching for a new dog class but its difficult to know whos reputable as we were assured the class we had him in was very good. Ive had quite a few talks with other unappy owners tho and Ive taken it as a cue to leave. If anyone knows of a class in glasgow that is good, I would appreciate the information :)

How old was he when you got him? Most pups aren't old enough to be vaccinated before leaving their breeder, and most good breeders of Goldens have a waiting list before pups are born, often before the bitch is even mated. Golden Retrievers are suprisingly hard to get hold of! KC registration is a matter of course, as is the free insurance you get with it, even puppy farmers do this. Have you tried to contact his breeder for help in this matter?

Jumping up at people is typical behaviour that is very easy to solve. I am amazed that your training class hasn't addressed it. You can look on www.apdt.co.uk for a trainer, but also ask your vet who they recommend.

Finally, if he really is that big,t hen he is above breed standard heights, so it is probably not possible to show him. Maximum height for dogs is 24" at the wither.

Hope this helps.

To the OP,

hi again.  Re clubs in Glasgow, THIS CLUB is run by members of the APDT (Assoc of Pet Dog Trainers) which should have links to other supported trainers/clubs or at least be an excellent point of contact for you to move forward with this lad.

Hopefully there will be some useful info for you from one or both of these sources.

Very best wishes, Teri :)

I used to think that aggression in Goldies was unheard of. A while ago, a friend had a male at her ring craft class. Out of the blue he went berserk & attacked his owner & my friend during a class. I don't know the details, but my friend was very shocked. There is an old Goldie who lives near us & he is a nightmare, don't know whether it was lack of socialisation or bad breeding, but he (on 2 occasions) has nearly killed 2 smaller dogs. I give him a very wide berth when I see him & I am the one with the GSD! It's made me cautious, I suppose any breed is capable though, they obviously aren't all big softies.

Sadly I to have seen badly bred aggressive dogs of normally easy going breeds.  Temperament has to be selected for, like other breed traits. 

There is no selection practised by puppy farmers or casual breeders, ability to reproduce is the only criteria, so bad temperament will show up sooner or later.

I don't think bad breeding is the case here though.

Before my Newfie we adopted a Golden from a friend. A sad story as my friend had breast cancer, 3 children which one is disabled and her hubby is in the RAF. The Golden was 8 when he came to me and weighed 55kg. He hated all dogs in a big way.
This old boy lived till one day short of his 16th birthday. I never managed to get him to like other dogs but for some reason he loved the next doors cat!! He would also sit with me when fishing my lake and would sit with the rather tame ducks and a soft robin. Got his weight down to about 32kg and he had regular vet visits. He had a stroke at 14 and his rear legs/hips where in a poor shape at 13 but again the vets were fantastic and he just kept going.
He died at home in my arms and I miss him so much. He was a golden angel regardless.

What food is your dog on?

Vera

The problem lies with other dogs, he seems exited to say hello, (tail wagging head up) but then he gets agressive, especially with other males (snarling and barking, growling)
you arec100% it is aggression?

My dogs play like that..but it is play but people who don't have dogs think they are fighting. If I tell them to stop they stop and say who us? have big grins all over their faces!

At 18 months the macho canine king teen syndrome can kick in..the boys think they are IT! So they can try it on and can just need a firm hand and some back to basics and greater control until they grow up.

I like focus/distraction training. To get the dogs to watch me and seem me and not what else is going on around them.

Goldies are renowned for their gentleness...
Goldies are renowned for their high energy and boisterousness!

and in my baised oppinion stunning
just a thought ( cos I know what I'm like! lol! ) Do you look at him a lot and admire his beauty? I think it is easy to look at them too much and reinforce their illusion they they are indeed the most amazingly superior macho canine god! When I watch people who are really really great with dogs they tend to be people who stand upright  and are calm confident and cool and do not look at their dogs every second..the dog looks at them. Just a passing thought.

And another thought your training class should be really fun. If it is fun for you you will be a more confident handler and will pass more positive signals to your dog. He will become more engaged in his relationship with you and less with what else is going on ( when he's not being a typical ott bouncaholoic retriever! )

Thaks for all your replies guys :)

You know I have wondered if he is just getting redicolusly over exited and reacting in the wrong way to other dogs, he starts getting growly in a playful kind of way perhaps but the other dog normally takes it the wrong way and growls back and then daftie gets confused and thinks the other dog wants to fight with him...if that makes any sence...and as he never used to have an other dog issue it may just be him thinking hes matcho now hes at that terrible teenage stage :p

I do think hes gorgeous, but I dont fuss him when Im working with him. Ill praise him if he gets it right, but I try to feel confident and walk as though I expect him to do as hes told...if that makes any sence?

We feed him bakers complete, mixed with a small amount of cooked pasta or rice, and some  cooked chicken. Yes, he is a bit spolit, but according to our vet its healthy and it does wonders for his coat :)

>Goldies are renowned for their high energy and boisterousness! <

Sorry Tenaj but that wouldn't describe my goldens or most that I meet. They are an active working breed but a little less boisterous and mellower than most of the other common gundog breeds I know. I have a bitch that just turned 1 YO and a dog that's 2 1/2 and neither of them have ever been OTT in greeting or playing with other dogs. You can't blame the breed. ;-)

Some dogs do well on Bakers but it does have sugar and artificial colorounts that your dog may react badly to. If he is over excitable a change to a food that doesn't have sugar or artificial ingredients might help calm him down a bit. Arden grange suits mine.

You can't blame the breed.
it wasn't supposed to be a negative comment about the breed so I'm certainly not saying 'blame the breed'!  Most I young ones I meet are full of bounce and buoyant  playfulness ... I thought it was an appealing characteristic.  :)

Bakers complete..I don't think feeding him on that is spoiling him...it is full of junk and additives. I'd change his foor too... any brand without the additives and bulk fillers. ...I like the wheat free foods based on chicken and rice which is supposed to be good for helping dogs to be calmer. .The higher quality foods tend to cost more but they dogs need less.

Hi,

If you get a minute There's a great article here When a dog is slamming doors by Turrid Rugaas (scroll down past puppy and young dog to get to it) I would also highly recommend that you read her article Calming signals will give you a good insight, and help you with your handling which is equally as important as helping your dog with his behaviour (the two go hand in hand)

Hope these are of help/interest.
Keep us posted of your progress!!

Very interesting links HG. Thank you for posting them :)

Very interesting reading HG

So nice to see Husky Gal posting Turid Rugaas again!  Without that book I dont think I would have coped over the last 18 months

Please if you dont read anything else get her book

Maxine

I totally agree with what is being said about bakers - my collie was quite hyper and aggressive when on this, and became a differnt dog when i switched her to burns or autarky. Without seeing it it is very hard to be sure of the exact cause of the behaviour but It does sound more to me like a mixture of frustration and a slight lack in communication skills possibly due to not enough socialisaiton or maybe just down to the individual dogs nature. My spaniel likes to run up to other dogs and immediately shoulder barge in a very aggressive manner - which then usually causes a argument (so i don't allow him to do it), but it is actually his way of asking to play, but becuase he wasn't socialised as a pup he doesn't understand how to give and read other dogs signals. Only meeting other dogs on lead could be causing him to get frustrated, cos he can't get to the dog properly, but also up the arousal levels as he knows he is on lead and can't escape if there is a problem, hence why it turns aggressive. I would suggest it might be worth contacting a behaviourist with stooge dogs that may be able to advise and use other dogs to teach him calm interactions.