A controversial topic no doubt, but something I have discussed with other dog minded people and although it may not reflect my point of view I can see some merits in the suggestion:
Joe Public being a fickle/impetuous type decides to obtain a dog. Does some homework, finds a breed they like (A numerically small breed) then set about looking for one. All the recommended breeders only have a litter if requiring a pup themselves so not many on the ground but the breed(s) in question (There are many that fall into this category) is becoming popular and Joe public are admiring the same qualities as the committed breeders are and are determined this is the breed for them. Long waiting lists and few puppies available push JP to look further afield and lo and behold someone not so careful, money in mind, breed characteristics and bloodlines pushed to one side....but with puppies available is found. They get said pup, no back up from the unscrupulous dealer, no endorsements, no advice given on the breed, no mentor available and off they go with their bundle of fluff. Two years down the line and they decide to take a litter of Fido, no endorsement to worry about, no interest from the dealer since the day the cheque was cashed, Fido goes to the local dog who may also have come from a less than ideal source and a litter of pups is born, as is usually no problems, pups all fine, plenty of JP who like the original buyer are frustrated at the lack of available pups from a good breeder fall into the same trap and a new money making project is up and running.
The possible solution.: (Not necessarily the opinion of the poster!) If the good breeders bred a little more thereby making puppies a little easier to come by and mentored their new owners well (As most do) put endorsement on pedigrees and advised on breeding questions, Kept in constant touch with new owners and initiated them into breed clubs and discussion groups.......would it be possible to curtail the amount of puppy farms by removing their customer base? The thinking being that if JP had a wider choice of good breeders and a slightly better availability of pups he may not resort to "Any port in a storm" and turn to the puppy farmers?
How do you all feel? As I say it is not my piont of view but I can see some merit in the idea.
Aileen

Merlot,

Puppy farmers and puppy producers infuriate me beyond belief. Joe public may do their research if we are lucky if not they see prices of various puppies, the good breeder say may be charging £700 for well bred pup and mr pup farmer £350, they read the gump, see the pictures, to them the pups look the same and they buy the cheaper one. The pups seem to have all the right atributes, tail, 4 legs etc, they feel pleased they have saved themselves half of the cost of the other pup!!!
Yes we can all put endorsements and be very careful to whom we sell our pups but lots of pup farmers sell unregistered or DL registered pups.
It makes my blood boil, the RSPCA, Councils,Defra should get out of their gilded cages and put a stop to this once and for all. The KC could also help by doing a national campaign on TV,Papers and leaflet drops  explaining what is and what isn't a good breeder, where to get quality pups from etc and they should stop registering the blinkin pups from the producers and farmers.

I agree totally with you but in reality I think we wish for the unobtainable and they will never do anything. This topic of conversation was one I have recently and the thoughts were whether we as conscientious breeders could do anything to cut down on the amount farmed. I do realize it would only stop the sensible buyers who do their homework and want a good pup but we will never stop the ones who thing a dog is just a dog and if it's cheaper so much the better but do you think it would reduce the customer base enough to make a difference? After all if your market diminishes it may stop you producing, if only in some breeds. I fear the numerically high popular breeds have already gone beyond our help.
Edited to say: maybe if there were more better bred pups around we could reduce the prices, after all some good breeders are very guilty in asking inflated prices for pups. Also I wonder if it would effect the over keen buyers, after all we all have some part of our lives in which we can be impulsive and self restraint is not good (Chocolate and red wine come to mind!!) If they could source a good pup easier they may be persuaded to wait a little longer?

Alot of people that buy pups from byb's and puppy farms wouldn't be able to get one from a good breeder(however many litters they had) anyway for various reasons and the same with rescue.The unscrupulous breeders will always sell to whoever has the cash :(

True but we will never change that, it is the better buyers that this would target and possibly if we removed them from the BYB/Farmers clutches then they may find it less financially rewarding and curtail their trade a little?

The garden centre which houses the reptile shop that I use has started selling puppies in their pet dept.  They hand rear all their own birds and always have some lovely parrots and they are really knowledgeable about them so I was really disappointed to see them selling puppies, they had jack russells and border collies, both just under £300. I wish I had questioned them about where the pups came from and health tests etc, I was just too gobsmacked, those poor puppies :(

Isn't it the case that the better buyers are prepared to research, wait and pay more though? Most people want a pup available right now ,not to have to travel and at a bargain price which is what the puppy farmers/dealers provide.I can understand your point but even if the good breeders were to breed more the buyers would still have to wait and pay more unless they started churning out litters and that wouldn't make them any better?
I think sites like this do a wonderful job of educating people about good breeders but people will only listen to what they want to and not to what they don't.They don't(or won't) see the bigger picture and how they are contributing to rescue numbers by breeding  badly bred Fluffy "just the once" because they want cute pups.Those are the breeders that cause the most damage and I'm not sure how you'd get the message accross to them.The buyers don't (or won't) see themselves as contributing by supporting such breeders or they see it as "rescuing" them from a bad situation unaware that there will be another one along to fill the gap they've just created.
I'm sure adverts for breed clubs in every paper and online publication that sells pups would help but it comes down to finances at the end of the day.I'd love to see the rescues address the problem as it is the root cause of the reason they are there.

Clairys,I know exactly what you mean about the pups in the garden centre,I visit the States once a year and most shopping malls have a pet store(chain) that sells pups in glass cages totaly isolated 24/7 other than people gawping at them.They have to eliminate in there too and it all falls in to a tray underneath.A sales girl was most put out that I didn't want to pet one of the pups she'd got out of a cage as I was so busy feeling totaly sickened by the whole experience.All you can do is try to discourage people from spending money in there.

I really think really only education and a big ongoing advertising campaign will really highlight the issues to Joe Public :)

Personally I don't think that puppy farmers and back yard breeders exist because people can not get pups from good reputable breeders they exist because JP do not know what to look for in the first place. ;-)

This is the only thing that needs pushing forward, the more programmes on TV, even light hearted ones or better still soaps that have someone looking for a pup and saying about KC reg, health checks etc would make puppy farms loose half their trade.

Anyone who knows what to look for will wait, it is not good breeders chasing them off due to lack of stock, it is little knowledge known by especially first time owners that is the problem.

I've written to the KC 'a few times' :-) about having an advert or something of the like to help inform people of what makes a good breeder and a good pup, but alas still to date nothing happens. :-(

It is an interesting idea, about what the OP stated, but it does have its problems.

First off, if we breed more dogs, then even though we have more dogs to sell to people, what happens when you still have these pups not gone from your house while people, not wanting to spend the money on well bred dogs, are still going to the pet stores, and adverts in the paper.  For example, a breeder friend of mine bred a litter.  It yeilded 2 MP pups.  She advertised them, on the National Breed Club website, and also talked with many people.  Some people have come to see the pups, but for whatever reason, either the breeder didnt feel comfortable, or the pups just didnt appeal to the prospective buyers.  Now she still has the same two pups, who will be a year old in August. 

Also, when you talk to regular JP, and tell them of the wonderful purebred, health tested, show campaigned pup you have.  Where the pedigree was outstanding, where the parents are all health tested, proven in the show ring, and obedience ring, and upon further talk, they ask, well how much does a good dog like that cost.  When you say $1000 they gasp saying "YOU spent that on a DOG?".  Not realizing all the work that comes with the breed, and most times, the $1000 per pup, does not cover basic breeding expenses.  And heaven forbid you have to take this new pup to the vet, for you will recieve more comments about how "stupid" you were to get a dog, that has gotten sick well after the purchase of the dog, and that the breeder should take the pup back.  They then go on to say, that their dog, only cost $100 and that they never take it to the vet. 

The only people who will be willing to spend the money, on a good dog, and not those from puppy mills and BYB. will be those who truely want an outstanding dog, and not just like a previous poster said, one with 4 legs, tail, and a heartbeat.

>Personally I don't think that puppy farmers and back yard breeders exist because people can not get pups from good reputable breeders they exist because JP do not know what to look for in the first place.<

I totally agree with this statement, which, I'm slightly ashamed to say is how we ended up with our lad. Until I discovered CD, I had virtually no idea about the difference between a good breeder and a BYB. I knew that puppy farms were 'cruel', but for some reason imagined they were all in Wales. We bought a pup from a local 'breeder', he was an accident, but she wasn't what I would call a responsible breeder in the slightest, just interested in money really (although he was cheap being a x breed).

Although I wouldn't be without Stitch for the world, if I knew then what I know now, I wouldn't even have gone to look at the litter, never mind bought a pup.

I think education is the only real way forward, many people who are no already involved in the 'dog world' anre totally unaware of things such as health testing, KC vs 'other' registration, what makes a good breeder etc. The issue is how to educate, I imagine that (like me in the beginning) the non 'doggy' people don't read the doggy press & mags, so local and/or national newspaper press may well be a good way forwards

Claire

Merlot- but how many puppy farms DO numerically small breeds? They all tend to do all the really popular ones -Labs, Goldens, Cavaliers, Poodles, Yorkies, Westies, Cockers etc etc, and in all of those breeds, it should be no problem at ALL to find a GOOD breeder at any given time, what with the sheer numbers being bred. I DO breed a numerically small breed and I find people are happy to wait a year or even two as they know how rare it is. Yes there are a few unscrupulous breeders (not puppy farms though) but the sort of people that will go to them instead are the sort of buyer none of the responsible breeders will sell to anyway....not suited to the type of dog.

Quite right and it needs pointing our that bad as puppy farms are they are not the major problem, it is the casual one off breeders or those regularly breeding a litter or two but with no real interest past sale, the colour of the prospective owners money being the only qualification to buy.

This site in Canada really brings this issue home: http://www.nopuppymillscanada.ca/back_yard_breeders.htm
"The back yard breeder is the single greatest cause of pet overpopulation. Back yard breeders usually do not have bad intentions, but the results of back yard breeding are devastating. The majority of purebred dogs come from this category in many popular breeds, as well as the majority of purebred dogs in rescue, or destroyed in pounds. .......

Where do all these dogs come from? Puppy mills churn out 20% of the total number of dogs whelped yearly, and roughly 1% are the results of feral dogs reproducing on their own. Less than 12% come from breeders who actively test their stock in conformation, obedience, and field trials. Backyard breeders, or people who breed their dogs without testing and certifying their stock, produce nearly 67% of all the dogs born annually in this country (Gardner, 1994)

I suspect statistics are depressingly similar in this country.

I think once the public become better educated then that is the time that good breeders could be able to breed more than the bare minimum to keep lines going, knowing that there would be knowledgeable people who had done their homework looking to become owners, and some of them hopefully in their turn would swell the ranks of good breeders so that we can continue each breeding small numbers of quality litters, in responsible numbers.

Personally I don't think that puppy farmers and back yard breeders exist because people can not get pups from good reputable breeders they exist because JP do not know what to look for in the first place

I too agree with this statement.
Another good reason for not wanting  to produce any more than I do already...... I don't need an excuse to keep any more puppies and will only use the best stud dogs ...... so the temptation would always be there.

> The thinking being that if JP had a wider choice of good breeders and a slightly better availability of pups he may not resort to "Any port in a storm" and turn to the puppy farmers?
> How do you all feel? As I say it is not my piont of view but I can see some merit in the idea.
>

I think it isn't the numerically small breeds that have big problems with puppy farmers/pet only breeders, but the more popular breeders & Joe Public wanting a puppy in the same way the do a jar of coffee at the supermarket i.e. now, they want to be able to simply decide to get a puppy one day & buy it the next, with little or no research into the breed & little knowledge of the same.

On another forum a poster is offering her young dog at stud & she has admitted that she knows nothing of any health tests that should be done-the breed is a non standard coloured GSD !!!

What is really needed is a system in which you cannot just buy a dog because you want one. There needs to be education regarding the requirements of the puppy & each breed specific needs, including health testing etc. I have for many many years believed that that before you can legally own a dog you pass a test(just you have to pass a test to legally drive a car)& that it is not the dog that pays the penalty for the dogs misbehaviour should it occur, I believe that all dogs should receive formal training & the owners be assessed to see if they have trained the dog to their best ability & this should be done whilst the dog is still a puppy.

I see, way too many, lots of young dogs brought for training when they have developed a problem with their behaviour that would not have happened had the owner bothered to learn how to train their dog to be a social well mannered dog. I see puppies that have been to "puppy"training at the vets that have learnt bad behaviour because the parties are not correctly structured & run by unqualified, untrained or inexperienced if well intentioned people & this includes the vets & the vet nurses(this isn't every puppy party I must add)

It should be necessary that all breeding dogs & bitches are fully clinically & genetically tested before they are bred from, they should be assessed as being"fit for purpose"There should be stricter guidelines set for the quality of the breeding stock, it should not simply be a case of you own a bitch or dog & you have the right to breed from it per se, I do not view my ownership of my dogs as my right, but as my privilege.

Personally I don't think that puppy farmers and back yard breeders exist because people can not get pups from good reputable breeders they exist because JP do not know what to look for in the first place

I too agree that this is often the case. I consider myself to be a conscientous member of Joe Public and a responsible dog owner. I have only ever had rescue crossbreeds before and it wasn't until I got my "pedigree"  rescue that I researched his breed and found a whole new world :) When I was a child very few people owned anything but crossbreeds unless they were  involved with showing or had working dogs. I too thought that pedigree dogs were mainly not for pet homes and I did not consider myself to be a naive person but have since discovered that, in this situation, I was very naive indeed.

For me the biggest misunderstanding that occurs with Joe Public is the belief that KC registered means quality. I now know different. There are many reputable breeders out there who health test, take temperament as a major consideration, breed to improve lines and are very careful in their choice of new homes for their puppies and most of those breeders are involved, rightly so, in some form of showing or working trials. That is their proof of quality. There are other breeders whose dogs are KC registered but that is all they are - no health testing, no thought gone into the best matching of dog and bitch, no responsibility for the future of the puppies they have bred and no back up system when things go wrong.

The KC don't appear to be very interested in informing JP of the differences that occur between breeders - it seems it is mainly down to reputable breeders as individuals or individual breed clubs/councils or informed members of forums such as this one.

A thought I had was that perhaps all breed clubs/councils could get together and , as a united body of all breeds, have an advertising campaign to inform the public of what they should be looking for - and why - when they buy a dog. The cost would be spread between all the clubs. The people who have the best interest of their breed at heart are probably the best people to get the message across IMHO.

i didnt think pet shops in the uk were allowed to sell puppies?

I breed enough pups in my breed every couple of years or so.  I don't want to join the puppy always available brigade! 

hayley123  i didnt think pet shops in the uk were allowed to sell puppies?

I believe that the KC don't allow them to sell KC registered pups(thankfully) but I don't think there is a law saying they can't sell unregistered or one of the mickey mouse registry pups.The situation is even worse in the States as the American KC have no qualms about AKC registered pups being sold in shops etc :(

Plenty of UK petshops sell puppies, but the majority of those tend to be located in London, and then there are puppy superstores at various major locations across the country. Your average UK petshop does not sell puppies. However there is absolutely nothing to stop them if they have a licence to sell animals.

> <SPAN class=htt>In Response to</SPAN> hayley123 i didnt think pet shops in the uk were allowed to sell puppies?

Nothing to stop them other than complying with council regulations and having the requisite License.

Sadly my breed bred by BYB most often in Ireland is found in one large such puppy supermarket.  In fact the former owner runs one of the so called Pet Puppy registries, .

Hayley, even Harrods sell puppies :(

Some interesting replies.
IMHO I believe that we should have a dog licence in the UK with real teeth. I think it should be quite expensive but be assigned to a person as apposed to a dog therefore allowing multi-dog ownership after proving the ability to have gained the knowledge needed to own a dog properly.
Every one who applies should have to pass a test (No different to a driving licence)  of some sort before being accepted. No one able to buy a dog without the licence
This could include aspects of finding a reputable breeder, educating JP as to how to source a good breeder (No reason why pet/cross bred breeders could not be accepted...even if not to your particular taste some people prefer cross breeds, ALL breeders would also  need some tight legislation in order to gain the right to breed and recognition of careful dog ownership) It should also include aspects of good dog care and conditions, and would remove from the courts the "I didn't realize I was being cruel" plea for clemency in cruelty cases.
It would also seriously deplete the "I'm a hard man with a vicious dog" brigade as they could not be bothered to take the test so and Illegal dogs would have to be kept undercover, no so good for the street cred' if you can't show off your dog!
However as we live in the real world I do not see this happening and if a dog licence come into being I think it would be a soft option without proper policing and that as responsible owners it would be us who bear the brunt of it and those who don't care now still would not.
And no, for those of you who wondered, I have NO intention of breeding any more litters than I now do!!!
Aileen.

hayley123  i didnt think pet shops in the uk were allowed to sell puppies?

A breeder recently told me that he sold his (don't know if I'm allowed to say breed) to Harrods.

While I agree that people should be licensed to own a dog, we only have to look at the licensing of guns in the UK to see that in the real world it just wouldn't work, just where do all the unlicensed guns come from?

I think a nationwide campaign to educate JP would be the way to go and would come under the umbrella of the KC's responsibility to all dogs ;)

Not a million miles from the same subject, I can't help feeling that the Pedigree Adoption drive, while having it's merits will do nothing to help numbers of dogs in rescue - the BYB's and Puppy farmers will just keep churning them out   It would be more beneficial if it included information and education on where these dogs/pups are coming from originally.  ETA - And information on how to avoid buying from people who churn out pups in the first place.

Hi,
I have one off those small popular litters, which are available very cheaply from Puppy Farmers, BYB and  we"ll just let her have the one litter before we spay her. Out of interest how many litter would you except before you classed them as a PF?

Have read all the replies I have two comments like to ask / discuss, involve KC. It is hard to educate JP, but those doing their reseach often do visit the KC thinking they are the best!

If the KC insted of advising only one litter per bitch, per twelve months - would only register one litter, per bitch, per twelve months, I'm sure that would help???? ( this would have stopped a lot of breeders early in 2007 TAILS!). Second if they would only advertise on thier web site puppies who have had their health checks and from health checked parents.

At the moment Pedigree amoung others are advertising on the TV, could they not help educate JP?
Personally I find those who have done thier research in thier breed will wait.