I've just had a bit of a shock. A friend gave me a copy of MS Money to put on my pc as I never know what happens to my money, I earn a reasonable wage but am always skint :-D

Anyway, I installed MS Money on the 14/11/07, exactly 2 months ago, and since then have religiously entered every penny into it that I've spent. It allows you to assign categories and sub categories to every transaction and I even split grocery bills and note down how much I've spent on the dogs if I get a pack of chicken wings say in my weekly shop.

In 2 months I've spent £527.42 on the doggles!!! Food £231.34 (the freezer is full and I have 3 sacks of dry food so this will last a while). Vets £162.33, Supplies (toys etc) £62.83 and £70.92 insurance. This is a lot more than I'd imagined I spent on them. There's nothing I can do about it, I'm certainly not going to cut back on their toys or treats, but if anyone tells me they're getting a puppy I can now advise them how much said puppy might cost :-)

Scary isn't it.

When running my monthly report this morning everything else is as you'd expect it to be. The most money was spent on my mortgage, then income tax :-( , then the dogs, then gifts (xmas), then national insurance, then groceries! I thought I spent a lot of money on my car, but it costs less than me to feed :-D

It's only when you add a program like this that you realise!!  shocking isn't it?

Sarah.

I have alwasy kept a note of expenditure, whcih is why it makes me laugh wehnpeopel say you can make money from an occasional litter.

I have alwasy kept a note of expenditure, whcih is why it makes me laugh wehnpeopel say you can make money from an occasional litter.
but surely at the cost of pups you do offset the expense were you do have the same dogs do the same activities but never sell any pups? Obviously not a reason to breed or profitable but it must help.

It helps in as much as it enables me to keep a line of 4 to 6 dogs rather than one if I didn't breed.  I would also not be able to go to more than a show or two.

So the puppy sales help enable a line to be developed and kept.  As dog and dog breeding especially is so time consuming it is often practised by those on a fixed/reduced income who can only afford to put so much into their breed, so offsetting expenses allows you to do more.

If this did not happen you would only have commercial breeders producing poor quality as cheaply as possible, or those who are independently wealthy breeding dogs.

Wtih very modest showing my dogs still cost me between £500 and £1000 a year more than any puppy sales bring in, and that is with a small kennel of 4 to 6.

>>So the puppy sales help enable a line to be developed and kept.  As dog and dog breeding especially is so time consuming it is often practised by those on a fixed/reduced income who can only afford to put so much into their breed, so offsetting expenses allows you to do more.<<

So I am a bit confused.  Does this quote mean that if you are on a fixed/ reduced income, you should not enjoy dog sports or breed your dog?

Because I must say, that even though I am on pension, I still afford things for my dogs.  I would rather spend money on my dogs, then booze and going out all the time to clubs. 

If thats not what you meant, then I guess I took it the wrong way.  But you dont have to be rich, to breed dogs. 

Also, if you put your mind to something you want, you will find a way to do it.  I got my girl, saved for her, and then since I have had her, I have been putting aside money each pension deposit to cover things for the dogs. 

My vet bills last year were in excess of £4,500 so it's safe to say that breeding isn't for people out to make a fortune!  Okay, so you could say it was a very bad year, but I have a bitch due to whelp soon, and I am keeping the litter to show, so my income from this litter will be nil! 

Jan, I don't think that's what Barabara meant.

was that to me?  I know I commented on a post that she made, but my name isnt Jan.  My mothers is, but not mine lol.  Maybe my mom snuck on here a couple times, and posted or something.  lol

To Crespin

> So I am a bit confused.&nbsp; Does this quote mean that if you are on a fixed/ reduced income, you should not enjoy dog sports or breed your dog?
>

No what I mean is that without offsetting some of their expenses a breeder would not be able to breed or take part in their activities.  A breeder can't afford to give their pups away, and any perceived profit only covers some of the running costs of providing those quality pups, which are far more than the actual litter xosts.  Without establishing the line keeping the dogs to breeding age you couldn't produce the pups, or afford to keep them in their retirement.

> <SPAN class=htt>to</SPAN> Keronella

Yep been a bad year for Vets bills here and no litter.

I get what you are saying, and I am sorry I took it the wrong way.  I just didnt understand what a fixed/reduced income has to do with anything.  Being on one, not by choice, I am very sensitive to the subject.  A lot of people say we are "bums" who just dont want to work.  My dogs give me a sense of work, and I love the sports I can do with them, and I love their accomplishments within the show ring.

I am sorry that I was confused.

A lot of the best breeders are retired for example so have the time to devote to their breed, but being retired are on a fixed income.  So it would be a loss to dog breeding if they couldn't offset the costs of their breeding activities over and above the rearing costs of a litter.

It helps in as much as it enables me to keep a line of 4 to 6 dogs rather than one if I didn't breed.  I would also not be able to go to more than a show or two.
yes the shows are too expensive. I wanted to show mine for fun but at open shows there were not enough dogs of my breed entered to be worth my time and when I found out how much the champ shows cost no way can I afford it...it seems they are very much about breeding.

It is a shame breeding or being on a high income is the only way to afford entering dog shows.

A line is only meaningful to a breeder because the breeding of that line and the qualities they are developing is their own specific interest and interest to those breeders who are interested in adding those lines to their breeding lines.

To the average owner we just want a nice dog of a set breed who is recognisable as that breed who is healthy and who does not eat children. When pups cost £600 to over £1000 I think there is profit for the breeder, even if they use this to pursue their own hobby.  I have no problem with this..a task well done is worth paying for. But I never understand why breeders do not to acknowledge the idea that selling pups is acquiring additional funds for their own use...which for some is developing and proving through showing that they have developed a very good  breeding line.

Many people keep multiple dogs with no breeding..I know a retired couple with 7 dogs all from rescues. They have no £600 - £1000 a pup to help them pay for their dogs.  People who have the extra money from breeding surely is part of their income? 

to Tenaj

> Many people keep multiple dogs with no breeding..I know a retired couple with 7 dogs all from rescues. They have no £600 - £1000 a pup to help them pay for their dogs.&nbsp; People who have the extra money from breeding surely is part of their income

thing is the person you mention chooses to keep that many dogs because they can afford to or wish to, a breeder needs to keep dogs in order to be a breeder at all.  Unless your going to re-home your former breeding stock, just keeping a pup from each generation will soon have you with half a dozen dogs to keep.

I could of course buy a new dog every five or 6 years and not breed myself and my costs would be less and I would just show one dog, and keep no more than two at a time.

I suppose it is like a Car manufacturer, the expenses are not just the steel, and parts used to produce the car, even the wages for the staff, but also the investment in plant and machinery.

You need to keep a bitch for two years, more usually 3 years before she can be bred from, so that is part of the cost.

Lets say we only look at a bitches productive years so 8 years.  Good breeders will have say 3 litters.  So selling price of 18 pups, their rearing costs plus their mothers keep for 8 years, does not give you an income.

The notes from the Tax office say as much. http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/bens/ben14.htm#c]

> was that to me?&nbsp; I know I commented on a post that she made, but my name isnt Jan.&nbsp; My mothers is, but not mine lol.&nbsp; Maybe my mom snuck on here a couple times, and posted or something.&nbsp; lol <IMG class=qButton title="Quote selected text" height=10 alt="Quote selected text" src="/images/mi_quote.gif" width=20>

Crespin = apologies for calling you Jan, wanted the post to be polite, so checked profile for your name!  LOL  Didn't think you were being funny in any way, I just guessed that you may have interpreted Barbara's words wrong, which she has now explained anyway.  Wasn't jumping on you!!

Brainless

>Good breeders will have say 3 litters.  So selling price of 18 pups

That's assuming that there are 6 pups in each litter :)   Some breeds have an average of 4 pups or less as a usual number ;) so even less money to pay for everything else ;)

I have one small dog - he's not a show dog or a stud dog, he's just a pet.  But hey, he costs money.  He eats, wants treats, wants toys, needs vaccines, needs health care.  That is a big consideration and quite a bit of my monthly budget.  Pets cost money and not just show pets or breeders.  Everyone should consider this before they take them on :)

CG

How would any one of you do with your dogs if you had hit hard times. I now have a number of dogs and have hit hard times, when speaking to people they can't understand why I cannot re-home them.  They are part of our family and it would be like giving one of my kids away, Don't get me wrong they are still well looked after but sometimes the treats have to go by the wayside. I explained to my vet that I had cancelled the insurance because I just couldn't afford the monthly payment he has agreed that if I should ever need it I can pay by instalments.

Linda 

I've been there Linda, I've done the searching around the house for all the odd coppers to buy a loaf to keep us going till next pay day. You cope, I may spend a lot of money on my dogs now but for a year or so (when my ex left with the contents of my bank account), the dogs and I survived on tesco value food, no extras. They never went hungry and like your vet mine would have let me pay by instalments had it been necessary. There are endless discussions on here about the best food for your dog and I spend a fortune on their food now but to be honest they didn't look any different when they were on tesco own make :-D

> <SPAN class=htt>In Response to</SPAN> Dill Brainless
>
>> Good breeders will have say 3 litters.&nbsp; So selling price of 18 pups
> That's assuming that there are 6 pups in each litter :)&nbsp;&nbsp; Some breeds have an average of 4 pups or less as a usual number ;) so even less money to pay for everything else ;)

Yep quite agree was just giving what I have averaged.  Mind you my first bitch lived to 13 1/2 and had 8 pups from two litters.  The second lived to 11 and had 17 pups in 3, Kizi now 10 17 in 3 and Jozi now 8, has had 18 in 3.  Lexi at 4 has had 1 litter sired abroad (so cost more than pups sold for) has had 1 litter.

Just checked since selling my last pup on 1st March 2007 I have actually spent £2500 on the dogs.  Must say was shocked!  I don't show excessively, only about 20 shows a year max and probably only about 15 last year.

I write it all down, but don't often stop to add it all up.

Interestingly our import if you took away the cost of purchase and Quarantine (£3000) he has cost another £7500 in his 6 years to keep and show, that is excluding most of the travelling costs to shows as those were absorbed by his co-owner when showing her own dogs.  He has onbly sired 8 litters 7 of thsoe to his woners bitches.

I deliver 210 copies of my local free paper and leaflets f the princely sum of £21 which covers the dogs food at least.

There is also the chance that you will end up out of pocket even tho the bitch has been bred :(

I know a couple who did everything right.  Bitch was fantastic - always in the placings at shows (and in that breed is remarkable) all breed tests done - hips, eyes etc.  Dog a CH and a good match - also fully tested.  Travelled to stud and stayed a few days, bitch went on to have a singleton, but didn't go into labour, vet wanted to wait but owner not happy.  I advised go with instincts.  After a bank holiday emergency C-section and emergency spey, they lost the enormous pup and were very lucky to keep the bitch.  Cost of breeding attempt only - well over £1000!  They never even counted the cost of buying the bitch, showing and feeding.

My own CH bitch only had one litter, we were planning a second when she started growing a mammary lump as she came into season, couldn't take the risk of it being cancer and wouldn't breed from a bitch with that kind of problem - so lump off, and speyed, luckily she's fine so far.  The one litter definately hasn't covered the costs tho.   Currently showing her daughter, but yet to even attempt a litter there, so no money in but plenty going out LOL

My husband could tell you what I spend but I don't want to know! It runs into thousands though!