My neighbour is about to take her 3 yr old bitch to a stud dog tomorrow. We are really excited, read the books , but would like the opinions of those a lot more knowledgable than us on here as to regarding health issues. The bitch has been working all season(shooting) and is fit and well as declared by her vet. Our discussion this evening has been about risks for the much loved girl. Are there any we should be aware of with this breed and in breeding please that we should know about.

We are both dog mad, but neither have bred before and I'm just the nosey neighbour, there to help out in my pinny, carry hot towels and OH will be puppy sitting, so it's a group effort and the bitch will want for nothing :).

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Hi

I went into the kennel club site to see what tests should be done on the Sire and Dam BEFORE breeding them

Eye Testing, they should be tested for GPRA, CPRA and MRD.   Also DNA testing for FUCOSIDOSIS (FUCO).

I would advise your friend to wait until the bitches next season before she gets mated, that is, of course, unless she has had all these health tests done.

Thanks for the reply marguerite. Are these test recommended for a working strain? I did ask the owner of the stud dog about such test as I know nothing about this breed admittedly, apart from the fact they live next door. He said that the tests were not needed as there are no congenital problems with the breeding line and that unless there are, he doesn't test. The dog has been used a lot and I don't think my neighbour will change her mind about tomorrow, as she wants one of these pups for herself. Both dog and bitch come from very famous(shooting papers) parents and she's hopeing for a champion. Her main worry is any risks to the bitch. Mine is just worry 

Yes, working strains are at just as much risk of these conditions as the show strains (judging by the working-type ones we have at the vet practice where I work), but the working-type breeders tend to have their heads firmly in the sand ... :(

Her age and physical fitness seem to bode well. 

Has she been hip scored and eye tested, and the stud of course too, as of course she could have hereditary health issues that might not be apparent yet which she could pass on to her offspring.

This breed of Spaniel are known to be affected by  GPRA, CPRA, MRD and under investigation For Glaucoma.  The range of hip scores in the breed are 0 - 102 ( O is best and 106 worst) so nothing to be complacent about.  The mean score is 13 (average of all scores), with a median (most frequent score) of 11.

Oops I see I have been beaten to it.

Lets put things this way you cannot know if your dogs are carrying problems unless you check or affected pups are born.  Even with known carriers of a problem being mated (not that you would it happens because you don't know they are carriers) the number of affected pups is 1 in four.  In complex conditions like Hip Dysplasia even very poor hips cannot simply be seen.  The parent may be so fit the problem does not show, but the pups may be cripples.

I am afraid those who think working dogs do not have these breed issues have their heads firmly in the sand or up their ar*e.  They all stem from the same original foundation stock to the show stock.

I would wait until all the health testing is done.  My late Springer was from a working line, and I can tell you she was the miracle pup.  All but her, in a litter of 5, died from liver failure before they were two years of age.

Spaniels also have a hereditary condition called Rage Syndrom.  Its epilepsy where the seizure causes rage.  They attack for NO REASON.  They do not know what is going on, and do not know that they are attacking.  The dog remembers nothing of the agression.

Also, eyes and ears are a big problem in the breed.  Others have listed eye problems, but ears are just as bad. 

The big ones to worry about are the eyes, epilepsy and liver.  Dont know if they have it in the UK, but here we can do a wellness blood profile, which will test at least the liver enzymes, kidney, and thyroid.  Here it costs about $100 CAD. 

I would hold off, to be honest.  The dog will be in season again, and you can do the research of different health issues, and then be more prepared for a litter of pups.   

Oh and with every breeding you risk complications.  Be sure you have someone there that is really experienced.  You dont want to wait to long with a problem, and have the dog pass because of waiting to long.

This is a very sore point with a lot of famous working spaniel kennels. The majority of them DO NOT test for anything when breeding their bitches. When the tests were bought in for spaniels they stamped their feet and decided not to go down the testing route. You will find hardly any that carry out health tests for ess's (working lines) as ignorantly they do not believe that problems are occuring in those lines. Someone who is sucsessful in trials needs to make a stance and only breed from clear lines and the others will follow like ducks. The same happened with optigen for labs (working) a couple of famous kennels went down this route and now lots are following. I know that problems do exist in working lines of ess's, I have seen a crippled 2 year old with HD.
My advice is get the tests done before breeding and think carefully if you are going to find suitable homes for the pups. I am sorry to sound negative but if you look in any shooting publication 90% of the adverts each week are for working ess's. They need lots of mental stimulation and work and would be climbing the walls in a pet home where they only get 20 minutes walking a day.

I'm sure I won't be the only one to say it, but the working Cocker people seem to be a bit ostrich-like too.   Some working people believe that if a dog can do a day's work it can't have any inherited problems!

Also have they thought about tail docking, dew claw removal too?  If you are breeding working strain spaniels and their tails are undocked, you'll find a very limited market as working people want their spaniels docked to limit tail damage and working bred spaniels aren't the easiest dogs to own in a 'pet' situation & I speak from experience on this one.

Ditto, Christine, I own and work 2 ess's, they certainly would not be suitable for a pet home. Just have a look in ess rescues to see the amount that are in there. It is very difficult now to get an ess docked. You have to prove that they will be going to working homes, certification has to be shown eg: shotgun certificate of owner of dam and the vet has to give you paperwork, also the pups have to be microchipped before they leave the breeders. Personally I would think long and hard before going down this route. I vowed when we had our ess's even though we breed Goldens that we would never breed ess's as I wouldn't like to think that I was responsible for any ending up in rescue and as their are so many working ones bred I would not sell to pet homes we have and will continue to stick to our rules and we have owned them for many years.

Hi

If he has never had any tests done. How does he know that he has no problems !!!!!!! Only way to find that out is to have dogs and bitches tested.

There is an eye problem under investigation in my breed and I got one of my bitches and dog tested a few years ago just to make sure everything was o.k.

Thanks everyone for the info, I will show my neighbour today. I'd like to say thanks for the information anyway, as it will definatley give her some new information to think to think about.

Apart from what everyone else has said, even if the bitch and stud are A+ specimens of course there are all the usual whelping dangers that all our bitches face.

Everything can run very smoothly, or it can be a complete nightmare.

Make sure that your neighbour reads up and if possible can contact breeders of her breed to watch or learn of how to cope with all birthing eventualities, I'm afraid I am one of those people who would not contemplate breeding in any way without knowing how to cope with things that can go wrong.

If your neighbour goes on shoots and mixes with others of her breed including the stud owner ask her to talk to them and make as many friends as possible to learn as much as possible, and of course to make sure that she has a vet on standby incase of the need of a c-section.

Hopefully any future pregnancy will go very well, but my advise is to always be prepared for the worst that way you can keep calm and know exactly what to do for the sake of the bitch.  :-)

Well, to my utter surprise she has decided against the mateing this time.

After reading the posts, her heart wasn't really in it. Perhaps next time, who knows? I do know though that she would really like one of those pups and it's a shame as she's so disapointed. Why o why can't dogs produce just the 1 or 2 in a litter, it would save a lot of the problems we've seen.

I think everyone will; be reklieved to hear that and maybe she will do all the health checks for when and if she wants to :) :)
She has made a good, educated decision
Lea :) :) :)

Oh I do hope so.

I am pleased that she has decided against this. If she wants a pup perhaphs she should look around for one. I know a show/working kennel that do test, they show mostly but the dogs will work, if she is interested I will pm you the details

Good news Viv - I think we're all surprised but in a nice way for a change :)

Do you think your friend may consider simply getting another dog from the breeder of her own or off this stud dog to another bitch?  Sometimes people want something specifically "like" what they already own and adore but as we all know it rarely works out that any two are the same.  More importantly, better she just buys in one puppy from similar lines than possibly breeds 8 / 10 and has to find homes which can cope with such an over energetic dog as an "average" family pet (which of course is unfair on a working bred dog, IMO :( )

regards, Teri

Oh good.  I did ask on a gundog site and a person said that many working people don't test and that one of the top ones sent pups to America and they had some of the well known health problems!!!

She did mention that for certain tests if the bitch is clear then the pups won't be affected so if she still wants to go ahead she should health test her girl.  Of course this wouldn't always go when hips etc. are iin there too unfortunately.

Thanks. I don't think she's thinking about buying one out as we have talked about it before, but is inclined to get the tests done on her bitch, so she can breed her in the future, just not now.