I have a German Shepherd. on its papers says black. Said to a breeder of GSDs this is my black one. She said its not black its steel Blue. as she had one. Looked at her website, and her steel blue one looks the same as my one registered as black. Not bothered. but would like to know . as my one as got older she has some silver on her chest, never there when she was younger. Looks black to me.

Puppies are registered when only a few weeks old and as you know Shepherd pups undergo a lot of change in their coat colours and markings so his lack of strong black pigment may not have been apparent.

Blimey Barbara - when do you sleep!? :D  You were posting after midnight...I have an excuse as I haven't been to bed yet...lol

PST neither have I, but I did doze off on the sofa for an hour or so :D  Will get a few hours.

That's ok then, I couldn't even think about getting out of bed at this time in the morning :D

i have a blue/tan gsd and the quickest way to tell colour is by their eyes, black gsd will have dark brown eyes whereas a blue gsd has amber eyes.
with my bitch the blue colour is obvious on her nose but not so much on her back it is only when you see her with a black dog you can see it.
i have also seen blue dogs with silver highlights also seen some with brown/red highlights, but i must say blues are normally obvious at birth

What's wrong with the correct black/sable/bi-colour coat? It is, after all, the accepted Standard coat pattern all around the world and especially in the GSD's country of origin.
What ever next? Black and white shepherds, then blue....... Genetically modified GREEN ones?

I didnt see anyone say there was anything wrong with black/sable....did i miss something? Its up to the poster to choose what colour dog they have, not you. If you dont show your dog, i see no need to adhere to the breed standard for colour. after all the breed standard is only the opinion of people on how a dog should look for competition, not the law. i have never really understood the kcs rules on colour as they are so inconsistent....for examples almost all colours are acceptable in some breeds, and others only one colour. I feel the rules on colour are only really relevant where colour is associated with a specific health problem. Pet owners should choose their pup based on whether they like it, and shouldnt have to put up with criticism from interfering others.

Who rattled you Pinklilies :-D :-)

i see no need to adhere to the breed standard for colour. after all the breed standard is only the opinion of people on how a dog should look for competition, not the law.

hmm not sure if this is really agree with you on this one  :-)  and it isn't really responsible advise to be honest and not certainly entirely true. If the dog doesn't meet the breed standard then it falls below the criteria for breeding and showing IMHO.  The breed standard is there not only as a measure stick to use but it is there so that is years to come the breed still remains for all to enjoy and hasn't ended up mixed with this and that to acheive other colours. 

I don't have coloured dogs but I would imagine the reason where there are more colours acceptable in some breeds than others is because when the breed was " founded" theses colours already existed.

We are only the guardians of the breeds. Lucky so many see it like that.

BTW lovely photos :-) I love watching that breed move.

But it has been done for people more interested on the show side. 

I have two breeds that produce black and tans and neither of the breeds have this colour as acceptable.  This colour doesn't cause any health defects of anything and was just the fashion whim of the person drawing up the standard many years ago.

I'm not saying that I agree with breeding from said colours or unacceptable colours in other breeds especially when they make out that they are something special and charge a lot more for them.

>Puppies are registered when only a few weeks old and as you know Shepherd pups undergo a lot of change in their coat colours and markings so his lack of strong black pigment may not have been apparent.

True all black GSDs are born completely black, blues are born a grey colour(like Persian blue cats)blue is a dilute BTW & many blue dogs have like almost yellow eyes. Black sables are born black with tan under the tail & sometimes on their feet. There is noway anyone could mistake a blue for a black when born(LOL I have seen loads of all black newborn GSDs)

>But it has been done for people more interested on the show side. 
>I have two breeds that produce black and tans and neither of the breeds have this colour as acceptable.  This colour doesn't cause any health defects of anything and was just the fashion whim of the person drawing up the standard many years ago.

This is not quite the same with GSDs, very pale coloured dogs or dogs with very light eyes don't work German breed sheep very well & GSDs are left to work the sheep alone in traditional German farming, so to have a dog that cannot keep the sheep in the area the shepherd has shown the dog to keep them in would be of no use what so ever. The HGH(stock working lines)in German GSDs never produce white, blues or longcoats as these have been culled(as in removed not killed)from the breeding stock many years ago. They are usually very brightly coloured(as in Deep Gold & Black)

Parti colour GSDs are never seen in Germany only the USA(or from imports from the the US)There is a strong feeling in Germany that these dogs have another breed(could be a Smooth BC type breed)in their make up

Sadly the GP are easily fooled that an incorrect colour is "Rare & Valuable"& will spend a lot of money to secure one. This makes them the favourite of puppy farmers as there is alway a market for them sadly(& always a lot in rescue when the novelty has worn off)

"i see no need to adhere to the breed standard for colour"

Regarding the question of why KC registered breeds shouldn't allow any colour in any breed, some breeds can only have certain colours - the colours are related to the breed as it was developed and no other colours are possible without crossing with another breed ;)  therefore it would be a sign that the parents weren't the same breed or mixed breeding had taken place somewhere in that pedigree ;)  

Weims would be an example of this ;) but there are many more :)

If breeders didn't select for Breed attributes then the breed would no longer look like that breed, it would look entirely different.  ;)

If breeders didn't select for Breed attributes then the breed would no longer look like that breed

Couldn't agree more Dill.
Without some of us adhereing to the breed standard, all we will be able to say when we see a dog is " there's a dog" not there's a GSD or there's an Afghan. What with cockapoos, B&W GSDs and other 'designer mutts'.... we are heading for the 'Eurodog'.

A few people seem to have not read my post in the way it was intended....and my cage was not rattled Blue.
I am not saying that the kc standard should change for dog showing, merely that dog showing is not the be all and end all of dog ownership. I feel that the kc rules on breed standard are in many cases there to ensure that dogs of a certain breed remain healthy, or have attributes suitable for the role that a dog would do....for example hunting, or retrieving.....and that is of course good for dogs. Where colour is concerned , if a person is NOT showing their dog, then I see no reason at all to be in any way disparaging about the particular colour a dog is, whether it is a "mismark" etc. THE KC can do what they like about the breed standard...its their prerogative, but as I said, is not the law, and I dont think anyone deserves to be criticised for having a dog of a different colour to breed standard....I DO consider that to be interfering in personal choice. If a pup is born of a non standard colour, and this does occasionally occur, if it is healthy I do not agree with culling non standard pups.

I don't think any one would criticise someone for owning a non standard or mismarked dog, but for someone deliberately breeding for them, and creating a demand.

I dont' think people have said cull mis coloured pups just don't breed from them. There is no need to distroy them.

I also don't agree that the kennel club do what they like with breed standards I think the breed clubs do have a big impact to..

PS was just messing about your cage you just seemed let rip :-)))

Colours are often a political decision of breed clubs/enthusiasts... In my breed for example (American Cocker), sable is a recognised colour and can be shown in Europe and Canada, but not so in the States... Who says what's right and wrong, and I agree with the opinion that if a colour does not have any health impact, I can't see a problem with it - even if it doesn't conform with the breed standard. (Though I don't agree with crossing breeds to achieve a certain colour in a breed, but I certainly can't ever understand why certain colours would be culled at birth just for being the wrong colour or mismarked).

Vera

My own breed comes only in grey with black mask.  Some red with liver pigment and amber eyes have occurred in the USA (some questionable lines liked with mcuh commercial breding), some people even blamed this on imports from the UK where speaking to breeders of nearly 60 years standing this trait does not and has never in their knowledge occurred in our breed.

The suspicion is that Red/Liver sibes have been added somewhere along the line in these non mainstream lines.

In Scandinavia that colouration does not appear, and there are a number of hunting Spitz breeds of different sizes and colours and to allow non standard colours would take away the breeds distinct identity.

In breeds that accept many colours the reasons for exclusion of certain colours and patterns is less clear.

just looked at your photos to, lovely dogs. i particularly like the one (zorro?) with his hair flowing in the wind (very loreal, i'm sure  he's worth it, lol ;) )

Of course the breeder should be aiming to produce pups that meat the standard and avoid producing non standard ones, but they should make perfectly good non breeding pets.

Non standard colour is the same as a mis-mark and should be sold with endorsements that should not be lifted, and possible at a slight discount.

As the subject of GSD colours as been raised I just wondered about white GSD?
There are alot of people in my area that keep advertising white GSD puppies, and although they do look nice, I believe they are not desirable for the show ring? 
In my breed colour and the amount of colour markings is very important when wanting to show so I am very interested in this thread! :D :D

Did anyone see the two black/tan Lab's in the dog press? apparently some Gorden blood introduced a while ago has left it's mark!!

Two pages of mismarked labradors!

How did they end up mismarked - I thought they only came in solid colours (or am I wrong again :rolleyes:?)

Oops - seen post further up.  That might explain it!!

I would say the black and tan are an accidental mating as the shape on the head on the full grown one just don't seem right

The others though do seem to be proper mis markings and love the one with the ring round it's belly :D

Some of them also look like thye just need a good wash :D

one of my old neighbours got a lab pup who was yellow with a black spot on his ear.  definitely all lab.

I would say the black and tan are an accidental mating as the shape on the head on the full grown one just don't seem right confused

The ones on the front page of Our Dogs were DNA tested and proven to be full Labradors. (Working ones.) Even the breeder thought a Rottie must have got to them! :D

Within the FCI of course the white GSD was turned into a separate breed, and didn't one recently win a large all breed championship show abroad somewhere? Can't remember if it was mentioned in one of the UK dog papers or the Swedish KC mag.

Are white GSDs like boxers in that you can end up with whites in any litter depending on the parents (i.e. in boxers flashy parents can produce whites)?  I just wondered as in the litters I see advertised ALL pups are white - or is it a recessive gene so breeding two whites will only produce white?  I'm not up to scratch with genetics so please please correct where needed :D

White GSDs aren't really white as such, but cream. The White Herding Dog or White Shepherd in the FCI has been bred to be as white as possible, but I've seen UK "white" GSDs as ranging in colour as Golden retrievers are.

I meant cream - just didn't explain myself well, sorry!!  Yes, I have seen them more of a golden colour as well as a very pale cream - such a variation. 
Interesting about the White Herding Dog - I'm off to look that one up now as it's not a breed I have heard of before.

>Are white GSDs like boxers in that you can end up with whites in any litter depending on the parents (i.e. in boxers flashy parents can produce whites)?  I just wondered as in the litters I see advertised ALL pups are white - or is it a recessive gene so breeding two whites will only produce white?  I'm not up to scratch with genetics so please please correct where needed 

Many many years ago when I got my first GSD(OMG 1958 !!)it wasn't unusual to whites in litters that had certain lines behind them, the whites that were bred in normal litters were sold without papers. However the puppy farmers cottoned on to breeding longcoats & called them rare would get them a higher return & to have white longsoats they could be sold as very very rare. White in GSDs is recessive to all colours except black BTW. So they started breeding longcoat to longcoat & white to white to increase their income. Most of the white dogs in the UK go back to dogs bred in the 1960's from the dogs of the post war period.

It is normal now to breed white to white & longcoat to longcoat to produce the maximum profit

The whites in the UK are not usually white but cream to biscuit

Now the "in"non standard colour is blue :rolleyes:

wasnt there that study where captive breed foxes started to breed drop ears & pied after awhile.Which to me shows a Mutation of the Colour gene can take place!!!!

Did a mutation take place? or were the genes already present but the animals disadvantaged in the wild and naturally selected against?  

I ask this because occasionally we see white/pied or grizzled baby and young Jackdaws around here, but they don't seem to live very long ;)  eg. I've never seen one feeding a youngster  ;)

oh brill point, hadnt thought of that! im a numpty!

>Can't remember if it was mentioned in one of the UK dog papers or the Swedish KC mag.

It was in Dog World :)

I have a blue GSD. He is a rescue, I am told by people who have seen him though, that he is blue. His skin is a blue colour, his coat is also silver & grey, with a light tan on his legs. He is a stunner &  very handsome.

Hi i posted this. Not trying to start a argument. The breeder who said mine was steel blue has a blue GSD & a steel blue one. To anyone who is not a expert on it the steel blue ones look black. Mine is not having any more pups. but the people who asked about breeding to get a certain colour you can never be certain. I have say a black bitch. Had a black and tan dog. died of old age sadly a few years ago. They had pups that were. In one litter. Some black, some white & some black & tan. They both had whites in there pedigree & they were both long haired. The ones who say the KC is trying to keep the original breed standards. I don't think have ever seen the first GSDs to come to this country. There backs did not slope down they had a straight back. Thats why they have problems with hip dysplasia its not narural for them. Thats why i prefer long haired ones. They are not bred for the showring. To me my dogs are pets. Colour does not realy matter as long as it is a dog you love.

>The ones who say the KC is trying to keep the original breed standards. I don't think have ever seen the first GSDs to come to this country. There backs did not slope down they had a straight back. Thats why they have problems with hip dysplasia its not narural for them. Thats why i prefer long haired ones. They are not bred for the showring. To me my dogs are pets. Colour does not realy matter as long as it is a dog you love.

Hm Well the first GSDs that came into the UK were captured German Army dogs-not show dogs at all-they were on the whole poor specimens-light boned with aggressive characters-they were in the Army as guard & attack dogs. These dogs were used to breed from as there were no imports in the early days because of the intense hatred for anything German in the UK. They were even renamed Alsatian Wolf Dogs to steer the public away from their origins. The Wolf dog bit was dropped as it made people think they were wolf crosses

The later imports were also not the best quality either & didn't come directly from German. It was these dogs that founded the breed & that on the whole had terrible temperaments. There were some breeders who brought in quality German dogs(Gwen Barrington was one)but they were few & far between

The poor untypical dogs were the foundation of the UK"Alsatian"(even their website URL is Alsatian not GSD)They bred away from the slightly longer than tall dogs to excessively long short legged deep chested dogs of the 1950s & those who still want to call their dogs "Alsatians"still breed this type today. Sadly few of them do the full range of health tests, although there are one or two

Hip Dysplasia has nothing to do with the external look of the dog, it was down to the shape then breeds like Labs, retrievers etc would not have HD. HD is a polygenetic condition that can have external influences-such as diet, injury, trauma

The dogs you describe as having straight backs had nothing of the sort, they had soft backs that dipped after the withers.

As to the type you dislike that is bred in Germany They have far better temperaments, hips, elbows & movement. The German GSD standard has always stated that the back should slope from the withers & that it should be level in movement If you have a dog that has a level back from the withers to tail set, then when it moves it will fall on forehand(ie look like it is running downhill forequarters lower than the hindquarters). I can't quote the UK KC breed standard as it is their copyright.

As for the longcoats(not long haired BTW), constantly breeding Long coat GSDs together results in the loss of the correct undercoat & this is detrimental to the dog(let alone the breed)it means the dogs coats are not weather proof & is one of the main reasons the Services(police etc)are steering away from gifted dogs to bred to work dogs. usually from German/Belgium working bred dogs. I don't think you will have seen a "Schutzhund"bred GSD. Their characters have to be 150% they are temperament tested at every trial they compete at as well as their Korung(Breed Survey), they are bred from dogs with certified good hips & bad HD is rare amongst them. They are often very dark grey sables & always correct coated. They have a very strong body construction.

Breeding from incorrect dogs just to produce "pets"isn't really helpful to the breed. Longcoats do occur in Germany(it's a recessive gene so can occur in any GSD litter)but they fail the breed surveys on coat type so would not be able to have puppies registered with the SV with pink pedigrees & breeding from them is discouraged.

The most important things about responsible breeding is to improve the breed, breed healthy puppies & breed for good temperaments-in no particular order as they are all as important as each other.

I'm involved with GSD rescue & we rarely see well correct type dogs in rescue, they are on the whole whites or long coats or correct coated pet bred atypical dogs. The only well bred dogs we see are in rescue because of death or ill health of the previous owners & if we have enough information we contact the breeders who will take back the dogs themselves.

I don't have a problem with people wanting/owning non standard colour/coated dogs, what I cannot condone is breeders who breed without full health tests, who breed for the actual fault & I'm sorry to say breed to supply "pets"so say the breed standard doesn't matter-without the breed standard we would not have any individual breeds

There should be some way of marking replies like that one as outstanding in the information they offer

Excellent reply and great information. Thankyou.

that was an excellent and informative post!

Yep said much better than I could have.

LOLOL I've just realised that in July this year it will be 50 years since I bought my first GSD, she was a Brittas bitch from Gwen Barrington & was sent over to the UK in a Tea Chest(quite the norm back then BTW & cost me 8 guineas(including the transport)!!!!!!!!! She was from 2 German Imports & I have never owned a dog who had lines back to any dog in the UK prior to 1958 & they have mainly been all German bloodlines ! ;-)

Hmmm don't mean to seem suspicious but where is original poster?

I have an all black GSD an he is as black as night. Black is an accepted standard colour BTW.
In response to Moonmaiden - we have a police breeding kennels 10 minutes away, and they are breeding many many longcoat shepherds.

Kat

Oh a friend of mine bought a brittas dog, this would be around 23 years ago. I remember being disappointed by him. He wasn't a show dog, had been bought for obedience but even so I expected more. He was tall, with a gorgeous head but quite small ears and the strangest curly coat. If I saw one like him now I'd think it was a lakenois cross gsd! I know shepherds often have delicate tummies but he had pancreas problems and various other things - cost a fortune in vet fees throughout his life. His owner always worked shepherds, but never went back to his breeder for another.

>In response to Moonmaiden - we have a police breeding kennels 10 minutes away, and they are breeding many many longcoat shepherds.

Many many ???? really which police force is this then ?  They breed lots of litters then ?

Certainly not one of the likes of Manchester, Central Scotland,  the Met, North YorkshireThames, Westmids, West Yorkshire, Strathclyde, Northants, Merseyside, Durham Avon, Devon & Cornwall & Somerset etc as they are using Schutzhund dogs & bitches. Manchester have an imported dog & Westmids have a dutch bitch, others are using imported Schutzhund civilian dogs & others buy dogs in from other forces & working(schutzhund/Working trials)bred litters

The above is gleaned from the BRS BTW not just hearsay.

The dog in the Avon video is a typical Schutzhund type GSD

He would have been from the dogs bred towards the end of Gwen Barrington's life. There were not that many sent over to the UK for pet homes & the best were destined for show/working homes(not obedience homes), my old girl wasstraight from some of her 1950's German Imports so as such albeit she had the Brittas affix she didn't have any Brittas breeding behind her

The Met do have their own breeding programme, and not just for GSD's.  I know they breed labs and spaniels and think they are now breeding Mali's.  Not sure if they have many long hairs though that are bred by them.  http://www.met.police.uk/dogsupport/index.htm

Would it not be fair to say that the police have their own agenda, i.e. breeding dogs from dogs that have excelled at police work; would it matter to them if they were long coats?