Did anyone watch it last night? I didn't think I was going to be able to, but in actual fact I was very reassured by the abattoir part. All very calm and stress free...although the twitching while their throats were cut was pretty horrible. I love meat so could never be a vegetarian but have always felt a little guilty about eating it. All I have to do now is convince myself that all animals are treated that way, it wasn't just for the cameras?

Hi Tigger

I couldnt watch it, I watched a similar programme a few years ago and it gave me nightmares.
Animals in slaughter houses should be treated well but obviously with the cameras rolling the workforce will be on best behaviour! I dont know how anyone could do a job like that, in my opinion theymust be very hard people.
I am a lifelong vegetarian, have been since about the age of 5yrs when I found out what meat actually is and how I cried! 

More than the horror of the pain the animals go through in the slaughterhouse when they meet their death must be the wait,  animals arent stupid and Im sure they know what is happening to the others and what is coming to them! Just dreadful
and of course before they arrive here, the horrid journeys crammed into cattle wagons they have to endure!   It upsets me to think about it, I live on a farm, but most of the surrounding land is rented out by this horrid farmer (who has had several suspended sentences for cruelty to his stock) but still gets away with it, each year I dread him coming and its usually me that ends up sitting on a gate giving them water when his crap supplie dries up!
I hate the whole industry for profit and nothing else, very few people consider the welfare of the animals

You really should have watched it. They had a vet and meat inspector there and said that the process was the exact same as at every slaughter house. I'm not sure if this is true, but hope it is. I had visions of the animals being terrified and stressed and in pain...but none of this was the case. The piglets were perfectly happy in the pens outside, then walked in one at a time along a walkway - ears forward, snuffling along - someone lent over and put what looked like a giant pair of pliers onto their head, this is the stun gun - the piglet didn't know anything about it, over in a second. The next part was pretty grim when they were hung up and had their throats cut, they were twitching while bleeding out but we were assured that they were unconscious and knew nothing about it. The next piglet wasn't brought in till they had hung up the one before round a screen - so it couldn't see what was going to happen. I'm sure they could smell the blood of course when they came into the walkway, but they really didn't seem upset at all.

I used to know a slaughterman and he (and his colleagues) took great professional pride in despatching the animals as quickly and as stress-free as possible. :)

Again that's reassuring JG. On radio 2 for the last half hour they've bene having a phone in/discussion about battery chickens. I do think after watching that last night that the life before the slaughterhouse is the most important thing. The piglets last night had a good life, and a good end. I was really hungry watching them cooking the piglets, and would certainly have eaten them :) Mind you at the moment I'd eat anything as I've been on liquids only for the last 24 hours, (going for the dreaded barium enema soon )

I watched it but don't understand why they are focusing on the niche young animal market as opposed to the usual Pork, Beef Lamb?

Made me think their stance was really anti meat but trying to look as if they weren't as more people might balk at the killing of very young animals.

I have killed and dressed Rabbits (only 10 or 12 weeks old) myself but confess they were in the freezer a few Weeks until I could eat them.  For me it is the smell of the warm flesh (I know to be careful of the Gall bladder having read how to deal with a carcass).  I had 4 to dispatch and butcher, but could only manage two at a time before feeling queasy.  I was 19 or 20 at the time.

I think if you do eat meat then you should be fully cognisant with what that means ans the sanitised prepackaged portions do not do that, but the carcasses hanging in the butchers window in the past rather did remind you.

Isn't it a series though? I was assuming (perhaps wrongly) that they would so bigger animals next?

Today it is going to be Kid goats, so no idea if they will eventually show bigger aninmals.

I was wrong :) I've just had a look at their website where they say they'll be taking a look at "Veal, milk-fed lambs, kid goats and suckling pigs". I guess it's just that they are more controversial  :rolleyes:

They had older animals some time last year, I watched the one where they slaughtered cows. I do think that if we eat meat we should know where it comes from and how the animals are killed, although I think it would be more yukky, (for want of a better word)! actually being there than watching on tv.

Hi

I didnt actually watch this programme didnt realise it was on. But last night i did watch Hugh Fernly Whitingstall(Sp) and his attempt to change the supermarkets views on battery farm chickens.  The second part is tonight and already horrifiening viewing. I will admit I always buy the two for £5 chickens at Tesco. I eat a lot of chicken as does my dogs so a real bargin for me. But having seen this it really has made me think. But I looked today when I was in Tesco and you are talking over £7 for a average sized free range chicken. I would much rather buy that but at that price it will be a treat and my chicken eating will have to be muchly reduced. 

I really wish I had the space to rear my own chickens, I would love to grow veg and maybe have a couple of pigs but Im afraid not really appropriate in a whimpy house.

Wendy

Same here - it's a vicious circle really.  If more people bought free range then the price would come down but at the prices they are now most people are tempted by the cheaper options.  I am guilty too :rolleyes: although do try to buy the best I can afford.

I'm caught in both worlds lumphy.  I will not eat battery farmed chicken myself (or pork), under any circumstances, but if I need chicken for the dogs I simply can't afford to buy free range meat for them.  They don't get chicken very often!  When they do, I also buy the 2 for £5 Tesco birds.  I hate having to do it though - just looking at them the difference is obvious, the battery chickens are swollen and out of proportion.  Someone on the radio prog commented on that as well.  I haven't eaten non-free range chicken since 2001, when a similar program to what's been described on this htread (missed it, nuts :() was shown - that showed how battery pigs are farmed too, absolutely awful.

I don't eat it often myself - I buy one chicken maybe every 2 or 3 weeks, eat the breast meat then boil the rest to make soup so it lasts longer (and it's rediculously tasty, of course).  I'd love to eat it every day but it is just too costly.

I plan to have my own chickens one day - hopefully not too far in the future - and I have reassured my friend that I will be doing the deed when the time comes for soup.

A slight digression inspired by the last post.  When I started horseback riding way back in the last millenium something we learned was the correct way to kill your horse humanely, if you had to.  Say it broke a leg, as my Mum's mare did (Grandpa dug a big pit at the back of the farm, they walked the horse in, shot her behind the ears and filled in the pit), and you had to do the deed yourself.  As I am often out in remote areas alone with my dog, what would I do if poochie became so badly injured death was the best alternative?  If the OH and I are canoe tripping he usually carries a shotgun.  I know of a couple of instances where people have been badly injured on a trip but of course we don't dispatch them because they are able to understand the hurt will end when help is found.  Our dogs don't know this and help for them is probably harder to come by, no search and rescue helicopters sent out for dogs.  I think most of us here are in agreement about the kindness of letting your loved pet go.  But do you know how to do it?  I don't.

When I kept Rabbits the experienced Rabbit keepers told me that if I was to keep and breed them then I should know how to kill them.  Rabbits make very poor patients and by the time they show most signs of illness they are on their way out. 

Also the economics of it.  A rabbit carcase is worth much less than the trip to the Vet, so if bunny is poorly it gets the chop.  Things like nails and teeth are husbandry and should be done by the owner, and to be honest malacluded teeth are down to poor breeding selection and such buns should be chopped and certainly not allowed to breed.

I am sure it is the same with poultry, things for the whole flock like anti parasitics or Antibiotics is one thing but you don't take the chicken to the vet because it is lame you wring it's neck.  the waters become muddied when livestock is treated as a Pet.

Couldnt agree more Barbara

I think if I worked there, I'd have to be a vegetarian :rolleyes: ............I felt so sorry for the little piggies like one woman said, why not wait until they are bigger so they feed more mouths, poor little innocent things :(  ..................I thought the worst part was when they slit their throats and the blood was spurting out

Yes, that was horrible, all that twitching as well.
After that it really wasn't so bad as you could see they really were dead.
I found the cow programme worse, probably because it was the 1st time I'd seen anything like it and they were so much bigger, more blood and insides.

I think with the cameras being there everyone was on their best behaviour......

A friend of mine who used to be an enviromental health officer told me in one of the abbatoir's he had to check if the cows didn't rise when the men wanted to take them to slaughter, they used to tip the contents of a kettle on them! 

I'm vegetarian, I don't really like meat & intensive farming will make sure I never want to eat it again.

I know it doesn't apply to suckling pigs, but when an animal is kept for meat there is an optimum age where the amount it eats and the amount of meat it gives give a diminishing return.

For example after 10 or 12 weeks Rabbits will eat much more than the weight and meat they put on, so the best age to kill them for the table is 10 to 12 weeks of age, after that they are becoming economically unviable.

I don't think most people realise what age different animals are usually slaughtered, but it is usually before they are adult.

I expect 7 months is the optimum age for pigs as the pig farmer lady said, as that would e before they ate all the profits and put on more fat than muscle, and at a slower rate.

If we think about nature most young animals never grow to adulthood in any species.

For me it is about the quality of life they have not it's length.

.

I saw the chicken programme last night and then a programme on More4 called The Lie of The Land..did anyone see that? It was a farmers eye view of how the countryside works today and followed a hounds-man round on his trips to collect dead animals from farms to feed the hounds. Some folk have not realised how many day old calves are destined for a bullet and a trip to the kennels for dog meat just because they are unviable to keep! Milking cows these days are on the whole a cross between Friesians, Jerseys and Ayreshires to produce an animal with creamy milk in quantity and a good udder for easy milking but the male calves are not wanted and they are killed at a day old as unviable! If we wish to continue to eat meat and drink milk and other dairy products them we have to accept that death is a consideration. The government and their foolish rules have made it uneconomical for farmers to produce the final product without taking these measures of crossing stock to maintain high yields and then not having the market to raise bullocks etc for meat. Years ago male calves would be raised as Veal. but the public (Rightly) caused a huge stir when it was brought to light how they were kept so this country banned it's production in that manner...then we allow veal in from other countries who have worse standards! But it's hidden under the carpet now isn't it! We should have improved conditions for our home raised veal and kept the cheep meat out not just hid the problem.
Sorry a long post but one I feel strongly about. As the farmers said last night "This country is too worried about the environment and not interested in the plight of the farmers, We shall end up with a wonderful environment and no farming" Then I suppose we will import our meat and dairy produce from countries with less than acceptable standards.
Aileen
Just a footnote I know home produce, free range, and considerately produced meat and dairy products are more expensive but spare a thought to the animals welfare next time you go shopping...it's an animals quality of life you are considering, would it not be better to eat a little less but better produced and help that way, very few if any of us would compromise our dogs welfare in that way?...cut down on quantity but improve quality (We all eat and waste too much anyway!!)

Regarding Veal.  In Poland Veal is free range young beef, it is basically reared until the grass stops growing and killed before the winter.  It is pink, rather than that very pale colour the crate milk fed veal procues, btu is not red like beef.

I know some countries are better than others, but we could do the same I assume? So why don't we?

I think it is cultural.  Beef has never been very popular in Poland compared to Pork and farming practises have been pretty old fashioned.

So most of the calves are born to milk cows and reared as long as it is economic to do so.  Veal is not wanted as young as it is in France with such pale colour to the meat.

Can't see why our calves can't be reared here in the UK and killed once they are a bit older and kept in the same manner as their female counterparts until killing age.

Can't see why our calves can't be reared here in the UK and killed once they are a bit older and kept in the same manner as their female counterparts until killing age.

Because there is no market for veal. If people were prepared to pay for ethical, grass raised veal, then we could do just that.

But by importing and producing intensively farmed cheap meat, we have cultured a belief in this country that a/ we have a right to eat cheap meat every day, b/meat doesnt cost much to produce.

If we went back to eating meat only two or three times a week, making do with left overs, buying cheaper cuts of good quality meat, eeking out a joint or a bird for several meals, and we ALL only bought organic free range, prices would have to come down, standards would have to be raised, and our british farming economy would be healthier.

But everyone thinks 'well i cant afford it', (you can, most wont justify spending on quality meat and doing without acrylic nails, top of the range car, expensive tv package), and they think 'well it wont matter if I dont do it'...

It does, if we ALL do it.... but we wont i dont htink. And we will end up producing no food inthe uk, and being wholly reliant on other countries to produce and sell us our food.

That if nothing else is to me a chilling thought!

>But everyone thinks 'well i cant afford it', (you can, most wont justify spending on quality meat and doing without acrylic nails, top of the range car, expensive tv package), and they think 'well it wont matter if I dont do it'...

I wish!!!!! my Luxerys are that I can afford to send my kids to cubs and scouts and atheletics, feed and vet my dogs etc etc,.
I have a hair do that cpost £10 a time. I dont do nails. My car is a Y reg but I cant afford to service it. I do have Sky but at £15 a month thats so that the little time me and kids are watching TV they can watch Discovery channels etc.
Alot has been said that people who cant afford free range should give up a luxery. Ok if you have a luxery. But I dont, So I will still buy tesco's 2 for £5 chickens.
Until the price comes down I would rather feed my kids properly while woprking and giving the dogs the best life I can, than being made homeless because I am worrying about chickens that live for 13 weeks.
SORRY!!!!!
If I could afford to eat free ranbge I would, but I cant and I will not feel guilty abouit it :) :) :) :)
Lea :)

Thats it though... the price wont come down!

We all have our different luxuries, i spose having 5 dogs is a luxury, i would class hair do's and sky tv (neither of which i have) as a luxury - you might class my £500 treadmill as a luxury..

The point is, until we do justify spending on free range food, the price isnt going to drop.

More importantly, if we dont start justifying food over tv (come on.... read that back, TV is more important than good quality ethical food!!!!), and start buying British free range, british free range organic foods... we are going to end up as a country that produces NONE of its own food.

When that happens, every country that provides us with food has us over a barrel. Is that a position you want to be in? Its not one I like the idea of at all!

I believe free range and ideally free range organic food to be healthier as well as more ethical. I also know it takes more time to prepare these thigns, espeically as to do it you really need to avoid all the ready meals and preformed frozen things - who prioritises the amount of time they spend on cooking over time with their family or in the pub or in the gym?

theemx I think we will agree to diagree on the TV, as thats my one luxery and as I dont go to cinemas etc I will keep Sky ;) ;) ;)
Lea :)

I think if Veal as it is farmed in the UK was marketed by showing that it is not produced in crates as it is abroad a market could be created, it could also be produced cheaply rather than wasted as it is now..

Veal, now what age are they slaughtered???
Free range chickens are slaughtered at 13 weeks.
Thats about the age veal are ??? ( I am guessing here)
So if they are reared on fields, and killed at 13 weeks, then that is 300% better than battery hens, so whats the differnece???
I have eated veal in the last 2 years and it was good. That was in England.
I would be happy to eat veal that was kept in fields :)Lea :)

> Just a footnote I know home produce, free range, and considerately produced meat and dairy products are more expensive but spare a thought to the animals welfare next time you go shopping...it's an animals quality of life you are considering, would it not be better to eat a little less but better produced and help that way, very few if any of us would compromise our dogs welfare in that way?...cut down on quantity but improve quality (We all eat and waste too much anyway!!)

Well said.  An old school friend used to argue with me that although a battery chicken might have a crap life, at least that life is over once it's slaughtered; so what difference does it make if I buy it or a FR bird?  I always pointed out that for every battery bird bought, another is brought in to replace it, and the horrible life begins again for another bird.  The more people refuse to buy battery meat, the less demand for it, so on and so forth.

Re. wastage - that is why every chicken I buy is made into soup once I've eaten the breast meat - I can get every teeny bit of meat off a boiled carsass, and my rats gets the bones when they're cool.  Nothing gets wasted.

It's really interesting reading this thread - as a newcomer to farming, that is.  We've had the farm for just over 2 years.  We are under conversion to become organic and are deeply concerned about our animals' welfare.

I watched the Hugh F-W programme and recorded the other one, will try to watch it soon.  I will only buy free range chicken and eggs.  I don't want to be responsible for battery farming.  I really miss eating take away chicken tikka masala.  As Hugh F-W said, chickens have got to be the most abused of all farm animals.  We now have a few hens and a cockerel (you don't need all that much space for a couple of chickens :) ) so we have plenty of delicious fresh eggs and I hope to raise some birds for meat in the spring.

We have a herd of Dexter cattle - a small and hardy breed.  They live outside and are only fed on grass, hay and silage (no grains)  They live a pretty natural sort of life, the calves are weaning fairly late so it's as stressfree for them all as possible.  The bull lives with the cows when he's mating them, then when their daughters start to get vulnerable to his attentions, he moves to another field to live with the young steers.  We took our first couple of steers to the abbatoir in the first week of December.  They were just under 30 months. Friends kept saying "how could you" and I did wonder how we would feel when the time came.  My partner and I took them to the nearest abbatoir (we had asked for opinions about it beforehand, wanting things to be as humane as possible for "the boys".  It was all very calm and quiet.  There were some sheep quietly waiting in a pen.  The boys just walked calmly down the ramp into their holding pen.  No nasty noises to frighten them.  We didn't stay for the rest - we wouldn't have been allowed to.  They wouldn't have had long to wait.  We took the next ones just after Christmas and it was the same, calm and quiet.  They were dispatched pretty much straight away.  We had the meat back from one of the boys and it was delicious.  Friends and family have had some from us and have all said it is vastly superior to what they usually buy.  Quite different from the majority of supermarket meat, (some of which comes from abroad)  I would strongly recommend buying meat from your local farmshop or butcher, especially those who can tell you where the meat comes from.  Or searching the net for farms which advertise their own meat.  Perhaps try to find a local farm and possibly even try to arrange to visit if you want to buy from them.  We would welcome that.  You will probably have to pay more - we keep our steers for longer than some, and we don't keep them intensively, and I'm sure they tasted better for it.  We really must get our own web site up and running! 

I really must get round to learning how to milk one of our girls - dairy cows get a raw deal too, having their calves taking away at birth.

If only people would support british farmers more ,alot of red tape and absolutely ridiculous regulations made by people who arent in the farming industry have killed traditional farming and when alls said and done it pays to look after your stock properly and there will always be cruelty to animals in the towns and country.We all cried when we had foot and mouth and had to stand there and watch  ewes and lambs being slaughtered because the farm next door had it as will alot of farmers, so the majority have their livestocks welfare first and foremost, Its the intensive rearing and exporting live animals which is barbaric,Farming is peoples life through generations but it is very quickly going downhill due to government regulations and its a sin.It will end up with us importing all our meat ,like our brazilian beef they have foot and mouth but we still  import the meat, when we get foot and mouth exports are banned....makes no sense

Do you think most independent/self employed (can't think of the right term!) butchers tend to use meat from free range farms or stick to the intensively farmed stuff? 

I would think that would depend on the individuals.  Where I used to live, the butchers I used only carried free range meat (pork, chicken, everything).  Local stock too.

But the one I use now only has some free range chicken (most of it is battery meat), FR pork/bacon is special order and not often available at that.  If I want bacon I have to go to the local farm shop a few miles out of town, where again everything they have is FR.  Or so I'm told at least, I haven't made it yet!

Where i am butchers use locally produced meat and poultry, must say the poultry is mainly from battery farms  though, its the supermarkets and the public that cry out for cheaper products regardless of where its coming from.Theres not enough people buying good quality well reared/organic meat and poultry because its dearer, i heard that asda were going to start an in store farmers market,from what i can make out real butchers are extinct in some parts of britain so therefore  people are forced to go to large supermarkets, they dont have a choice ,surely cant we eat less but better quality food. majority of people dont seem to care less

I watched Gordon Ramsey take his lambs there and like said before on the post it did calm my mind to know its very quick and painless how they are stunned and then killed.

Well last nights with the Veal made me think that we need to start eating it here as it is a criminal waste of resources killing them soon after birth as calves have to be produced for cows to give us milk.

I think British humanely reared Veal needs promoting as a healthy alternative.  As a dog owner I would love to be able to feed it to my dogs, just incinerating it is madness?  Would it be legal for Barfers to buy the carcases off a Dairy farmer after they are shot?

It seems these British calves are reared in a similar way (though I know in Poland they are out grazing too) as I was describing to give Pink, not white meat.

I found the actual killing of the calves less grizzly than the kid goats.  couldn't understand why the calves and piglets were both stunned and then bled, but the kids had a captive bolt pistol to the brain (which would kill not just stun them).  Both the calves and kids had their heads almost removed, with the piggies just cut to bleed.

Will be interested to see the Lambs, as after all Lamb as the name implies is young, and has been eaten here in UK with no great agonising about their age?

I was reassured again by the veal calves last night. I've never eaten veal as I'd read the horror stories of calves kept in crates with no room to move or lie down etc. However, the ones last night had a good life, room to move, a comfy bed, as much milk as they wanted but also pellets and straw to munch - and as you say Barbara they are a necessary by product of dairy farming so I'll definitely be buying veal now...but only if it's clearly marked as british reared :)

Yes but where to find it?  As someone on the program mentionded it needs to be in Supermarkets (instead of Ostrich) so that most of us can get it. 

I sure would buy it in preference to Beef, but that is cultural as in Poland the Beef industry is small mostly they eat Veal because it is a by product of dairy, and they prefer it.  Lamb isn't  popular either.  Puppies are reared on Veal as a prefered meat source, and it isn't as cheap as Pork or Poultry.

I've seen veal in tesco, and just checked you can buy it online from them. The only problem is the picture online is too small to see if it's uk reared or not so I'll have to wait until I go to the supermarket to see for myself.

i can put in a q and a if you'd like (work for hq)

Thanks Kim, that'd be great if you could find out and let us know As you didn't see the program I'll explain. The calves were kept in a large open ended barn split into maybe 4 or so big pens, deep straw base. maybe a dozen or less calves to a pen, they had plenty room to move around, run if they wanted. They could lie down and had as much fresh milk as they wanted to drink but also pellets and they ate the straw too. They were clean, looked happy and weren't fat. I saw no problem at all with the way they were kept They did show other methods of rearing veal calves on the continent and it was what I was thinking of, the calves were kept tied up on short chains in narrow stalls so they couldn't move around. The base was slatted wood to allow mess to fall through but wouldn't be comfy to lie on even supposing the poor animals could lie down. I'm definitely going to eat veal but only if it's reared (not just packaged) in the UK. They also explained on the program how a cow needs to have a calf every year to produce milk, 50% of these calves will be male and there is no other use for them. Dairy cattle apparently don't have enough meat on them as adults to make it worth rearing them. The female calves are put out to grass and will become dairy cows themselves. It makes sense to me to rear the males for a few weeks then sell them as veal, especially as there is so little profit in milk production.

It also explained that the Veal crates (where they weee chained) had been outlawed in the EU last year,a nd ow they had to be kept in pens, but they still had no bedding,and the slatted floors, but did get pelleted food in addition to the milk but now could interact with each other, better, but not as good as here. 

i didn't see the show but i always thought veal was kept in the nasty conditions you describe to keep it tender. the other ones sounds nice and i would eat it then, its a waste not to (its like people giving me into trouble for leather coat/shoes-what of it? i eat them, this way it all gets used!)

If your with Virgin cable you should be able to see the program on interactive on the catch up option.

ON bbc 3 last night it was showing baby lambs aged 7 weeks being slaughtered the stun gun didnt work on the 1st lamb the poor thing started running about had to switch tv off i found it distressing.

Sheila

It was OK after that as they used the Captive Bolt pistol as they had on the kid goats from then on.

Most people thought the very young ones (26 days not 7 weeks) was pointless.  Lamb as we know it normally is only 14 weeks old anyway, but will have been weaned by then and eating grass for half it's life.

Lambs are normally around 6mth mark when they are weaned, we still have lambs from last marchs lambing which havent reached the 38 to 44 kilos which is the weight that is wanted for lamb, its not common for them to be slaughtered as young as 14 weeks old

So why was it quoted that the normal age for Lamb is 14 weeks, I am confused?  One of thsoe Lambs was nearly 20kg at just five weeks.